Vote to impeach Bush

[Boota]

I only want him to choke on a pretzel if it can happen soon. Once he's near the end of his term it won't matter. The damage has likely already been done anyway. I'm pretty sure that quite a bit of it is irreperable within a generation or so. Some of it may never be fixed.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I've said it a hundred times, but I think it always deserves mentioning in the face of extremist and violently arrogant and ignorant positions on politics and the president.

He is not a very good president at all. Some of that can be blamed on the way his very presence polarized a lot of us, and the things he allowed to happen (a more accurate way to put it, in many cases, than "did") continued that trend. He is a bad president, as presidents go. He is likely as qualified as most of them have been, he is likely no less intelligent or capable than most. In absolutely all likelihood (internet "urban legends" notwithstanding), he is just a bad policy maker and is not in tune with what's best for America as a lot of us see it.

This doesn't make him "evil'--and what sort of pretentious and assuming person would even want to use that word? He's a father, he's a husband, he's a Christian man who cleaned up his life. I can respect that. But none of those things have anything to do with doing the job of "President".

The CEO of a company, elected by the shareholders, makes bad decisions... it makes him a bad CEO. It doesn't make him "evil", it doesn't mean he deserves to be assassinated or any of that. It means we should support our free press and help make sure better decisions are made by the people.

 

[Belegon]

See Joe, we agree some times.

I don't think he is evil. I just think that if I made some of the same mistakes he has made I would be out of a job, and I am frustrated that he is not.

Retained earnings being turned into a pennies per share dividend instead of being used to further the health of the company may make you popular with the stockholders for a little while, but it makes the next CEO curse your bones. Especially as that CEO struggles to pull the company out of the horrors of a debt financed ill-fated product launch that does more to help your competition than it does for you.

 

[Halo_n_horns]

Looks like I need to fire up the ignore list again.

Look you fuckwads, the election is over and "the people" didn't vote Kerry in. You lost. That doesn't mean the rest of the country is stupid. It doesn't mean Bush is a criminal. What it does mean is that if you can't stand behind your country and your president, you need to find another fucking country to live in, because you are making yourselves DAMNED unwanted in mine.

Canadia is north. Get the fuck out.

I'm done with the lot of you.

We are standing behind our country, by doing something that can't be done in all too many other counties around the world; we're exercising our American ability to speak out against someone who is not fit to lead. That's one of the greatest privelages of being an American.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

If you can't prove me wrong then feel free to get out of our country.

Mexico is south. Now that you have a complete illustration of our geography, pick a direction and hike it.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Mmm, politics.

It's gloriously stupid and doomed, but I still maintain it's a good thing. The left has laid down too much recently and in the only battlefield that seems to matter in the hellwaters of politics, that of rhetoric, they have lost many a battle.

Anger, violence, threats to the power structure. Since everyone's soul is already lost in that great pit, why not open all the hate and violence and anger? Let the left fight back, make the right paranoid for its power, take advantage of its petty divisions, lose its soul for victory.

Such a war was set in motion when the tactics were born and used. Now it needs to be taken to its end until we either become so sickened that we fall into sanity and at least the appearance of compromise or we destroy ourselves. Welcome to the beast, my fellow Americans, what side of the coin will you call?

 

[Colleen Thomas]

See Joe, we agree some times.

I don't think he is evil. I just think that if I made some of the same mistakes he has made I would be out of a job, and I am frustrated that he is not.

Retained earnings being turned into a pennies per share dividend instead of being used to further the health of the company may make you popular with the stockholders for a little while, but it makes the next CEO curse your bones. Especially as that CEO struggles to pull the company out of the horrors of a debt financed ill-fated product launch that does more to help your competition than it does for you.

Bel,

See if you can understand this, I'm not sure how to phrase it. GWB can't screw up. Not in the sense that his policy decisions will be viewed as mistakes. The country is polarized & nearly split down the middle. Any action, while it may provoke half to condemnation, will please about half. A CEo has to please a diverse group, it's true, but that group has a common denominator, their bottom lines. So he can make mistakes, if his actions adversly affect that bottom line.

The country currently has no common denominator. Liberals call those who support Bush, stupid and ignorant, in a blaze' manner. Conservative call liberals immoral and bad loosers in return. I love the goose to death, but politically, we mix like oil & water. I don't think either of us are even at the extreme edge of our particular philosophy, yet finding common political ground is dificult.

He can't really make a mistake, because if his actions piss liberals off, they are likely to please at least large segments of conservatives. particularly neo-cons. If you are pleaing about half the people, all the time, you are going to remain at least moderatly popular.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

We are standing behind our country, by doing something that can't be done in all too many other counties around the world; we're exercising our American ability to speak out against someone who is not fit to lead. That's one of the greatest privelages of being an American.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

If you can't prove me wrong then feel free to get out of our country.

Mexico is south. Now that you have a complete illustration of our geography, pick a direction and hike it.

If speaking out about what you believe is an american right, then it would seem he is exercising his right in the same manner you are. That would make your invitation for him to get out the same as his invitation to you. Since your tone seems to condemn Dran for his invitation, by what miracle is yours any less offensive?

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

If speaking out about what you believe is an american right, then it would seem he is exercising his right in the same manner you are. That would make your invitation for him to get out the same as his invitation to you. Since your tone seems to condemn Dran for his invitation, by what miracle is yours any less offensive?

Halo's entering the ring in the stupid stupid stupid <ad infinitum> rhetoric war where by some odd raping of the english language that makes demanding people to leave the country is somehow patriotic. Don't ask me, it makes no sense to me either but to allmighty politics well *pff* apparently the rules are different.

Yeah, I'm still wagering on the dark horse that we'll all figure out that it's all bullshit and resist the stupid rhetoric games and powergrabs.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Halo's entering the ring in the stupid stupid stupid <ad infinitum> rhetoric war where by some odd raping of the english language that makes demanding people to leave the country is somehow patriotic. Don't ask me, it makes no sense to me either but to allmighty politics well *pff* apparently the rules are different.

Yeah, I'm still wagering on the dark horse that we'll all figure out that it's all bullshit and resist the stupid rhetoric games and powergrabs.

Hey Luc

*HUSG*

I tend to think political debate is a good thing. It allows us to vent and, exposes us to other views. The level to which we are willing to consider those views, probably says as much about the polarization of the U.S. electorate as anything.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Hey Luc

*HUSG*

I tend to think political debate is a good thing. It allows us to vent and, exposes us to other views. The level to which we are willing to consider those views, probably says as much about the polarization of the U.S. electorate as anything.

Yeah, it can be, but it's always so golram frustrating to see us falling into the same old traps, not because we're weak, but because they work. Polarization, demonizing the opposition, outright hatred based on political views alone. These things shouldn't work as well as they do, but they always do. It's just frustrating.

And *HUGS* right back at you. I've missed you a bit with my coming in always right after you've gone to bed.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Yeah, it can be, but it's always so golram frustrating to see us falling into the same old traps, not because we're weak, but because they work. Polarization, demonizing the opposition, outright hatred based on political views alone. These things shouldn't work as well as they do, but they always do. It's just frustrating.

And *HUGS* right back at you. I've missed you a bit with my coming in always right after you've gone to bed.

They work because they have been around forever and over time, they have been honed to razor sharpness. The work too because it's easy to induce anger, fear and hate. It's a lot more work to strive for understanding. Then too, the old adage about compromise still holds. A good compromise leaves everybody mad.

Political debates will almost always degenerate ventually. It's the nature of the beast.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

It's the nature of the beast.

Yup, it's like a cute fuzzy bunny from Hell without the cuteness, fuzziness or bunniness and with extra evil on the side like a diner analogy.

The beast is like the pain that last analogy generated in the reader.

 

[rgraham666]

In my mind, there are two reasons hatred and anger work.

The first is that they are addictions. Anger and hatred feel really good. All that adrenaline and all those endorphins created by the flight/fight reflex are such a fucking rush, man. And like all addictions, you need your hit at least every day and you need bigger and bigger hits to get the same effect. Eventually they take over your life. They rule you. And you don't mind. Your perceptions now tell you it's not your fault, it's 'those people'.

The second reason is that hatred and anger are socially acceptable addictions. Even alcoholism is frowned upon for the most part. Hatred and anger are allowable, even acceptable, sometimes even encouraged. The 'liberals' can hate those 'evil, greedy fascists'. The 'conservatives' can hate those 'godless, immoral faggots'. In their circles, that's all right.

One of the biggest giggles I get from the anti-smokers is how they feed their anger addiction off of my tobacco addiction.

Please note: in my mind anti-smokers and non-smokers are two different groups.

 

[Belegon]

Bel,

See if you can understand this, I'm not sure how to phrase it. GWB can't screw up. Not in the sense that his policy decisions will be viewed as mistakes. The country is polarized & nearly split down the middle. Any action, while it may provoke half to condemnation, will please about half. A CEo has to please a diverse group, it's true, but that group has a common denominator, their bottom lines. So he can make mistakes, if his actions adversly affect that bottom line.

The country currently has no common denominator. Liberals call those who support Bush, stupid and ignorant, in a blaze' manner. Conservative call liberals immoral and bad loosers in return. I love the goose to death, but politically, we mix like oil & water. I don't think either of us are even at the extreme edge of our particular philosophy, yet finding common political ground is dificult.

He can't really make a mistake, because if his actions piss liberals off, they are likely to please at least large segments of conservatives. particularly neo-cons. If you are pleaing about half the people, all the time, you are going to remain at least moderatly popular.

He finds it hard to make a mistake in the sense that no mistake he makes that does not have immediate dire consequences will greatly affect his popularity. And american politics are, almost by definition, a popularity contest. History will be a harsher judge.

I fell into work jargon because I was thinking about how my accountability compares to his. I feel his two biggest mistakes so far have been leading us into an ill-considered and poorly planned foreign policy adventure ( that hopefully may yet yield positive eventual results ) and the squandering of a budget surplus by giving back what worked out to a drink and 1/2 at happy hour every Friday instead of using the money to repair damaged infrastructures.

In the business world, you have the accountants to consider. If you are polpular but don't help the bottom line, you are gone. Does not matter how many clients invite me to dinner, if I don't protect and grow their assets they will fire me.

American Presidents rarely have to face the accountants. Not just GWB, all of them. The accountants did for Jimmy Carter, because it was on his watch that we ended up doing a lot of the billpaying for our last poorly thought out foreign policy adventure. And they did make their voice heard in the early 90's.

GWB will escape them. The next CEO may not be so lucky.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

He finds it hard to make a mistake in the sense that no mistake he makes that does not have immediate dire consequences will greatly affect his popularity. And american politics are, almost by definition, a popularity contest. History will be a harsher judge.

I fell into work jargon because I was thinking about how my accountability compares to his. I feel his two biggest mistakes so far have been leading us into an ill-considered and poorly planned foreign policy adventure ( that hopefully may yet yield positive eventual results ) and the squandering of a budget surplus by giving back what worked out to a drink and 1/2 at happy hour every Friday instead of using the money to repair damaged infrastructures.

In the business world, you have the accountants to consider. If you are polpular but don't help the bottom line, you are gone. Does not matter how many clients invite me to dinner, if I don't protect and grow their assets they will fire me.

American Presidents rarely have to face the accountants. Not just GWB, all of them. The accountants did for Jimmy Carter, because it was on his watch that we ended up doing a lot of the billpaying for our last poorly thought out foreign policy adventure. And they did make their voice heard in the early 90's.

GWB will escape them. The next CEO may not be so lucky.

I don't know how history will Judge GWb. If Iraq ends up with a democratic process and a stable government, and if the PAL and Isreali's manage to cobble together a peace, he may end up with the great statesman title. If he does accomplish that, he may, like regan, escape the kind of censure his domestic policy would other wise earn.

Few men who were great statesmen we also great fiscal managers.

While a lot of what is happening in the mideast is beyond his control and is the work of other men, if peace comes to Isreal & palestien, he will get the credit. And since the political clout of so many presidents has been left to rot in those deserts, he may well escape indictment for his domestic policy.

 

[Boota]

I tend to think that the elections in Iraq, while on the surface were positive, will likely lead to a civil war, much like what destroyed Beirut. I'd be pleased if it didn't, but it's what I expect. Everything has been approached as too simplistic, from the "they'll welcome us with flowers and parades" and "it will not cost more than two billion dollars" to the change of message that we really went there to liberate the Iraqi people in the first place.

 

[Halo_n_horns]

If speaking out about what you believe is an american right, then it would seem he is exercising his right in the same manner you are. That would make your invitation for him to get out the same as his invitation to you. Since your tone seems to condemn Dran for his invitation, by what miracle is yours any less offensive?

That wasn't said to be offensive. It was said to be fair. A sense of fairness is clearly something that Dran's commentary was lacking. Should I not have extended the same invitation that he extended to the rest of us?

 

[Belegon]

I don't know how history will judge GWB.

None of us do. We may think we do, but we are fooling ourselves... and yes, I include myself in that statement.

Few men who were great statesmen were also great fiscal managers.

Great fiscal managers in this country know better than to run for President. They don't want the pay cut. Only people motivated by fame and power want that job. If I could force Warren Buffet into the White House for four years, I would. We might hate the first two of his four years, but we would come out stronger. Foreign policy? Who knows...a danger, to be sure. But fiscally? We would be much better off.

While a lot of what is happening in the mideast is beyond his control and is the work of other men, if peace comes to Isreal & palestien, he will get the credit. And since the political clout of so many presidents has been left to rot in those deserts, he may well escape indictment for his domestic policy.

I am not so sure of this Colly. Remember Carter? What do you remember first, hostages in Tehran or Israel/Egypt accord at Camp David? I can't see anyone crediting GWB with a breathrough in Palestine other than his most ardent supporters.

Oh mi gawd...have we actually managed to start some rational discourse in a poly-sci thread?

 

[Couture]

This doesn't make him "evil'--and what sort of pretentious and assuming person would even want to use that word? He's a father, he's a husband, he's a Christian man who cleaned up his life. I can respect that. But none of those things have anything to do with doing the job of "President".

This doesn't make him "evil'--and what sort of pretentious and assuming person would even want to use that word? He's a father to ten children, he's a husband to four wives, he's a Muslim man who cleaned up his life. He helped defeat communism in Afghanistan. He built shrines to Allah.

Who am I talking about?

-Just fucking with you.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I tend to think that the elections in Iraq, while on the surface were positive, will likely lead to a civil war, much like what destroyed Beirut. I'd be pleased if it didn't, but it's what I expect. Everything has been approached as too simplistic, from the "they'll welcome us with flowers and parades" and "it will not cost more than two billion dollars" to the change of message that we really went there to liberate the Iraqi people in the first place.

If there is a civil war, it will probably end with the partitioning of Iraq, much like the partitioning of India/Pakistan, along religious and other lines. Since the northern part will most likely be "Kurdistan", that will cause trouble with Turkey, because the many Kurds in eastern Turkey will want to unite with the new nation.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Looks like I need to fire up the ignore list again.

Look you fuckwads, the election is over and "the people" didn't vote Kerry in. You lost. That doesn't mean the rest of the country is stupid. It doesn't mean Bush is a criminal. What it does mean is that if you can't stand behind your country and your president, you need to find another fucking country to live in, because you are making yourselves DAMNED unwanted in mine.

Canadia is north. Get the fuck out.

I'm done with the lot of you.

Offensive bait, arrogant and insulting, please put me on ignore after you read this:
"Do not ever tell me to get out of YOUR country."

At least I assume your talking to me, you were pretty vague about whom you were directing your intense hatred towards, apparently anyone who doesn't agree with you. I don't agree with your attitude.

Boota started a thread because he felt strongly about something, invited us to state our views and opinions. For you to enter a roomful of people and tell them to shut up or get out is not what I expected from you.

The president won't be impeached unless its for some future action. He's done nothing illegal. He has allowed stupidity to take global proportions, realized his stupidity and failed to take action to rectify it.

He was lied to, we were lied to, whats new? Michael Moore and the idiots who see a conspiracy behind every rock helped the president, I would rather have GWB in office than someone Michael Moore approves of.

No one, politician or otherwise, will ever get us out of Iraq without more dead Americans, and Iraqi's, and patriotic terrorists from every nearby country whose only ambition in life is to kill an American.

Impeachment is in my opinion, impossible.

I stand behind my country and the brave soldiers who fight where and when they are told to, I do not stand behind the president. That is my right as an American.

 

[Boota]

To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President, right
or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is
morally treasonable to the American public.
--Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919)

 

[Colleen Thomas]

None of us do. We may think we do, but we are fooling ourselves... and yes, I include myself in that statement.


Great fiscal managers in this country know better than to run for President. They don't want the pay cut. Only people motivated by fame and power want that job. If I could force Warren Buffet into the White House for four years, I would. We might hate the first two of his four years, but we would come out stronger. Foreign policy? Who knows...a danger, to be sure. But fiscally? We would be much better off.



I am not so sure of this Colly. Remember Carter? What do you remember first, hostages in Tehran or Israel/Egypt accord at Camp David? I can't see anyone crediting GWB with a breathrough in Palestine other than his most ardent supporters.

Oh mi gawd...have we actually managed to start some rational discourse in a poly-sci thread?

I think you are over analysing. For the majority, history comes in buzz words.

Regan won the cold war.
LBJ integrated the South.
JFK faced down the Russians in Cuba.
Carter gets equally bad play for inflation and the hostages.
Ford is held only as the man who pardoned nixxon.
Bush I will likely get credit for the gulf war, but equal time for no new taxes.
Clinton gets Monica, paired together for a lot longer than he probably hoped.

If peace comes to Isreal, the link will be made that Bush's tough stance on Iraq brought the terrorists in Palestine around. Much as Regan's wild spending bankrupted the USSR. While you cannot prove the links, popular mythology will make them nonetheless.

GWb may get a legacy as peacemaker & statesman by default, simply because it happened on his watch, much as hoover gets blame for the depression, simply because it happened on his watch.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

That wasn't said to be offensive. It was said to be fair. A sense of fairness is clearly something that Dran's commentary was lacking. Should I not have extended the same invitation that he extended to the rest of us?

Was it neccessary, to mimic wht you were protesting to make your point? If so, then you did what you had to, if not, you simply turned a rational resonse into so much "your mama" playground tossing about of insults.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I tend to think that the elections in Iraq, while on the surface were positive, will likely lead to a civil war, much like what destroyed Beirut. I'd be pleased if it didn't, but it's what I expect. Everything has been approached as too simplistic, from the "they'll welcome us with flowers and parades" and "it will not cost more than two billion dollars" to the change of message that we really went there to liberate the Iraqi people in the first place.

Iraq, as a nation, is ripe for a civil war & has been since it was created by fiat. Much as Yugoslavia was. At the end of the great wars, diplomats & statesmen redrew the map, often on such antiquated notions as they're all Arabs or they're all slavs. Many of the men who redrew the maps, had no concept of the cultural differences or history of the places they were deciding the fate of. thisis especially true in the Balkans and the mid east.