Wassup with races?

[destinie21]

Hello XSchreiber,
and welcome to the lit. I agree with dita' and raph. yes your opinon is well thought out and insigtful two things I appreciate in any "debate" but as raph said racism is alive all over the place. The racial tensions are so much more than that. Racism is hard to explain and I can only assume that prehaps you are not a minority and so therefore you can't fully grasp what I'm going to say next. Which is not to imply ignorance just lack of the ability to understand. You describe the racial "tension" as an obstacle which is to say something that impedes you but that can be overcome in the age old human fashion of struggle and perseverance though to me being a black woman I say that racism and racial tension is a reality, which is defined as something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily. You can overcome an obstacle or find a way around it but such is not the case with reality.

PS: I know blacks aren't the only "minority'
that experinces racism but in this forum and discussion I can only comment for myself leaving no room for supppositions.

 

[Guest]

Staying on the immigration subject, each immigrant group -Irish, Italian, German, etc.- after the first has encountered hostility and resistance from the previous groups. It generally takes a generation or two before an immigrant community is fully integrated.

X, meant to comment on this. I read a book a few years ago called "How the Irish Became White"; it's to your point. When the big Irish immigration began they were considered lower than blacks because blacks were actually worth something being considered property. E.g., in mining and construction the Irish were sent in to do the most dangerous work because if they were killed or maimed the loss was nil compared to a black slave who was worth real dollars.

As for the Irish in the states today, the stereotype is still as common as when they first arrived. WASPS rule here.

Perdita

 

[Jenny _S]

Thank you for the excellent post, XSchrieber and welcome to this corner of Lit. The sad thing about racisim is that it is something that must be experienced before you can understand it. An experience that I do not wish on anyone.

Good morning, Des, perdita and raphy

Jenny (Breathing heavily at Des AV)

 

[Guest]

The sad thing about racisim is that it is something that must be experienced before you can understand it.

Good mornin to you Jenn. Personally, I don't see how any non-color person can experience racism. One is born into it and lives it, there aren't any trials or tests to equal that.

Perdita

fyi, X, I'm Mexican (pale only because I live in fog city.)

 

[raphy]

On the subject, did anyone see Travolta in White Man's Burden?

I was very impressed.

Oh, and good morning. ladies =)

Raph, also fanning himself at Mrs D's AV.

 

[Guest]

Good mornin to you Jenn. Personally, I don't see how any non-color person can experience racism. One is born into it and lives it, there aren't any trials or tests to equal that.

Yep, I'm with you on that. I, personally, haven't experienced racism, but I have through my husband. He's half Japanese, and grew up in an area where everyone else was white. He endured years of bullying while at school, until one day he stood up to them, and fought back. He's a small guy, but very powerful. That day was a turning point for him, and he stopped feeling a victim and became a very strong man indeed. He ran one of the roughest pubs in the town for a while, and if any of the louts tried to kick off trouble, one look from him and they sat down and behaved. His steely look and the rumour of him being a blackbelt in karate seemed to help.

Raphy, I agree. Adam (my hubby) grew up in the sleepy seaside town of Bournemouth. Racism exists everywhere.

Lou

 

[destinie21]

Dita' of course as usual you're right. If you can walk down the street and people can see that you're a person of a certain pigment it leaves you open to racism.

Oh BTW thanks for all the comps on the av
If you guys don't watch it I'm gonna get concieted.

 

[raphy]

He endured years of bullying while at school
Raphy, I agree. Adam (my hubby) grew up in the sleepy seaside town of Bournemouth. Racism exists everywhere.

Lou

Kids can be so mean..

Raph, who had a very similar childhood

 

[raphy]

Oh BTW thanks for all the comps on the av
If you guys don't watch it I'm gonna get concieted.

Ah, so it is you then, Mrs D =)

Thanks for the confirmation. Just goes to show that K's a lucky girl too =)

Raph, in admiration

p.s. upping the stakes on me eh? time for another Raph AV change!

 

[Guest]

Loulou: 'mornin, doll. You make a good point. That may be the closest non-whites can understand, through loved ones. My sis-in-law understands much after 20+ years in our family. I never think of her as 'white', she's one of us as far as I'm concerned. My niece is a lovely golden brown and the light of us all.

ta, Purrditta

 

[Guest]

time for another Raph AV change!

Something to look forward to so early in my day. Gracias, Rafaelito.

'dita

p.s. Dest, dita' doesn't make sense to me grammatically.

 

[raphy]

Loulou: 'mornin, doll. You make a good point. That may be the closest non-whites can understand, through loved ones. My sis-in-law understands much after 20+ years in our family. I never think of her as 'white', she's one of us as far as I'm concerned. My niece is a lovely golden brown and the light of us all.

ta, Purrditta

I've had it from both sides. My younger sister's black as black can be - I've had to deal with people giving her static for her color through all of her teenage years.

And me? Well, I'm of less-than-certain heritage. Mother was Cambodian, my father.. Well, no one's quite sure.

Raph, the man with no past.

 

[destinie21]

Since when have I ever made grammatic sense?
though your point has been noted


Dita moonlighting as the grammer police

 

[Guest]

Dita moonlighting as the grammer police

Ha ha. Not police, luv, never. It's a labor of love for me.

Perdita

 

[BlackSnake]

...

As for the Irish in the states today, the stereotype is still as common as when they first arrived. WASPS rule here.

Perdita

Not even in the same league as the stereotypical blacks TODAY. One maybe Irish, but at least they are not black. Other minorities may have to deal with racism every now and then, but just imagine dealing with it most of the time when you are in the public spectrium.

 

[Guest]

BS: my point was that WASPs rule, I was not putting together Irish and Blacks today.

Perdita

 

[gauchecritic]

Can I point out something which I'm pretty certain has already been mentioned but has been somewhat sidelined.

Us white, middle class (not) young (not) majority are often the subject of racism and intollerance. I know that there is a massive amount of tension/violence between blacks/Pakistani/Indians, in this neck of the woods at least.

It's not just blacks who get the shit end of the stick in the same way that it's not only Jews who have been historically persecuted.

Racism/intolerance exists between all colours/creeds/preferences and I think it's another form of bigotry to ignore the other side of the coin.

Taking racism as your own persecution can only lead to further intollerance.

But what do I know. I'm working class white.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

But what do I know. I'm working class white.

You're right, Gauche. It's easy to ignore or even discount what you've pointed out. I myself identify with "working class" more often than any other element of someone's identity.

apologetically and in kind, Purr

 

[BlackSnake]

You're right, Gauche. It's easy to ignore or even discount what you've pointed out. I myself identify with "working class" more often than any other element of someone's identity.

apologetically and in kind, Purr

I am a part of the "middle class" by some standards here in the US, by identify myself as a "software developer" not a "Black software developer" or a "Middle class software developer".

Here I think, we can add in a sense of "equality of races" in the stories that we write. Deal with stereotypes and dispell them in our stories. I'm not talking about just black stereotypes, but the whole "she must couldn't do any better" attitude, or "he's slumming", to include "white trash slut".

I purpose showing the different races, their inherit attitudes about the different race, and then giving the a realization about their inherit attitudes. Conflict is good here, especially if one character finds that being with someone of a different race is enjoyable, but fear of public preceptions still keep them from making their relationship public. An "Undercover Lover" type story.

 

[destinie21]

Hi BS I'm only assuming that prehaps you meant inherent instead of inherit. In any case I don't belive that racial attitudes are intrinsic to peoples nature. Rather they are more generational curses propagated by ignorance and yes fear. As I said I know the black community isn't the only one that suffers but once again I can only speak from my veiw. Also an interesting fact that no one has yet addressed is the racial tension within the black community those in the lower class urban "poor" area's projects or ghetto's if you will who openly call sucessful blacks sell outs. The other blacks who fake the funk. like "I'm only a quadroon-octoroon black by the skin of my teeth half indian, spanish, anything but a nigga black." are constantly up in arms Not to mention the militant get whitey the man has screwed me out of everything since before sojouner truth black person who is ashamed that his greatgrandaddy on his mother's side was white so he walks around with a clenched fist pick in his hair an Angela Davis T-shirt and still will only date a "sistah" with processed hair and green eyes. They war with the same type of "brother " who mirrors their view except this one's got dreads on his head and tim's on his feet walking aroundlike he's listening to a beat "fuck you cracker I might be blacker... "attitude and still this Man will only talk to a dark skinned woman with an afro. We slight each other at every turn too but somehow when it comes from outside of the community it hurts more. I wont even start on the comments a black lesbian will get.

 

[gauchecritic]

I wont even start on the comments a black lesbian will get.

Still... Phwooar eh? phwooar.

Gauche

 

[XSchreiber]

I purpose showing the different races, their inherit attitudes about the different race, and then giving the a realization about their inherit attitudes. Conflict is good here, especially if one character finds that being with someone of a different race is enjoyable, but fear of public preceptions still keep them from making their relationship public. An "Undercover Lover" type story.

booya! That's the kind of story I meant, and destinie, that's what I meant by 'obstacle' -- I was using 'tension' and 'obstacle' in the context of tools to use in the creation of fiction (I didn't mean to imply anything about real life). A character wants something. The obstacle is in his/her way, it creates conflict. Conflict is what makes a great story. Without an obstacle, you'd have your protagonist simply get what he/she wants in the first paragraph and story's over.



I also wanted to answer the 'whites cannot understand racism' comments (though gauche already somewhat has - and people have already said something like all people are capable of experiencing it - I just wanted to say it, too ). While I admit as a white I will not experience the same amount or depth of racism as the average non-white in America, I have eyes and ears to be sympathetic, and occasionally experience racism as well.

One examples: When I was a skinny fifteen year old kid I got a job working as a vendor at the local football stadium. The first game I worked was a game between two historically black colleges. There was a very large crowd, and I was one of the few white people there, which at the time made me nervous; I may have been sensitive, but I felt quite a bit of hostility, received my share of dirty looks, merely because I was white

Some may be thinking, 'So what? That's every day of my life' - and I agree. Yeah, in the greater scope of human experiences, that is nothing. But at one point during the game, an old lady ordered something from me, and paid me by giving me a handful of change. I started to count it -- something I would have done even had my own parents given it to me. When I did so a rather large muscular black man, with a look in his eyes like he'd as soon rip my head off and piss down my throat as look at me, stood up and confronted me, 'You wouldn't be counting that if she was white!' What?? Not only was I surprised by the idea, I was scared shitless, skinny little kid, no one to keep this guy from putting his fist through my face, and as far as I knew, most people there would've felt it a justifiable considering the racism they'd suffered.

Just then the old lady said in a kind sweet voice, 'Sit down, he's just doing his job.' The guy sat down (I suppose this was his mother or grandmother) and looked away, back toward the field, his jaw tense and his eyes smoldering. She smiled at me and sent me on my way.

That's not the only experience I've had with racism. I have found many times over that as a white I am guilty of racism until proven innocent. -- Like I said, I know what I experience(d) is like a papercut to a broken back, I don't claim to know what someone else goes through, but I can wrap my mind around the ideas, words and concepts. Racism isn't a simple one way street (nor is it a simple matter).

I know it's probably better to have said nothing, because I still expect the 'you'll never be able to understand' response, even though I've kinda said that myself already. But hopefully that's just me being sensitive.

 

[XSchreiber]

I also would like to post something interesting. My 2 new stories were submitted, approved and posted at the same time.

These are the descriptions:

Tales of a Freshman Phenom - Star football prospect meets sorority girl.
Submitted by XSchreiber (Interracial Love) 09/24/03

Confessions of a Model Ch. 01-02 - She decides to enter the world of internet porn.
Submitted by XSchreiber (Erotic Couplings) 09/24/03


The Interracial story has been viewed 8634 times.
The Erotic Couplings story has been viewed 310 times.

I find this huge gap surprising. Now my curiousity as to what this thread originally addressed has been re-piqued. What gives?? One person preferring the first category while another prefers the second is one thing. But 27 people preferring the first while only one prefers the second is something else.

 

[raphy]

XSchreiber, as someone who's dealt with countless amounts of racism in his life, you will *not* get the 'You don't understand' comment from me.

It has not embittered me.

It has not twisted me.

It has not made me cynical towards others' attitudes.

And it has most certainly not given me any superior reverse-racism attitudes.

Anyone who tosses in the 'You haven't dealt with it all your life, you can't possibly understand' is playing one-upmanship games, and I stopped playing those in grade school. This isn't about who's had the worse treatment at the hands of those of another color.

You described an incident. Y'know what - It doesn't matter that you had one incident to descibe and I have more than I can remember. It doesn't matter, because what happened to you, happened to you.

It happened to you

So, you've been there. You understand. One incident or a hundred. It doesn't matter how many, because one is too many.

Raph

"If you can tell a wise man from the color of his skin,
Then Mister, you're a better man than I...."

 

[sweetnpetite]

"you'll never understand"

Naturally, I have to add my 2 cents on this as well.

As has already been stated, white people do experience racism. Generally it is easier for us to avoid, and that helps. Most of us don't think about what color we are on a daily basis. I think that there are a lot of white people who really will never quite get it, probably because they don't want to. And I think a non-minority can never fully understand the situation of a minority, even if they can empathise, even if they are very close to the person. So I think perhaps that was what was ment. Of course women are still treated as 'minority' so we have some idea about the 'inviisibe' underpinnings of prejudice.

That being said, I have experienced racism in several forms. I have a relative who made racist comments to my good friend and neighbor when I was a kid. I've heard some discusting comments that where whispered to me, presumedly because they wouldn't be offensive to a white girl like me, I've felt like a minority moving from an all white town to a heavily black apartment complex.

I used to work at a convienince store where it was often stated or implied that I was a racist if I didn't sell cigarettes or alchohol to people who wanted it. People often looked at me and assumed I was the pushover, and that I wouldn't card them. When we were robbed by knife point many of my neighbors were suprised to hear that the asailants where NOT black. Then they'd say, 'oh, well, there are so many more black people in this neignborhood' What a crock! We have tons of white, mexican and asian people living here. It's very diverse.

One time a little black boy told me that he was waiting for his friend, and he didnt' want me to think he was stealing. When I was a little girl, it never would have occured to me that anyone even would have thought that about me. I literally choked back tears that that little boy was worried that I would think he was stealing. The older black gentlemen would always look at you funny if you asked if they wanted a bag (no matter how small there purchase) and say, "I bought it didnt I?" Younger guys sometimes would say that they were instructed to always get a bag. No one wanted to be accused of stealing becuase they walked out with there purchase in there hands.

I am as white as the day is long, but I feel personaly insulted sometimes by things I hear and see. It shocks me even more when others refuse to see or deny that it is there. AND IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF WHEN I AM TOLD THAT I JUST HAVE SOME MISDIRECTED FEELINGS OF GUILT ABOUT BEING WHITE. I'll tell you, when I watch a movie where a slave is being whipped, I don't identify with the person doing the whipping, but the person getting whipped. That's not guilt, its' empathy.

I coudn't agree more that we are all members of the *human* race. But I do adore the variety within.