Wassup with races?

[BlackSnake]

I had never heard of that...

You never heard the following:

This e-mail is being sent to you as a public service announcement and as information in the form of a little known Black History Fact. This information can also be found in the African American Archives at the Smithsonian Institute.
Although not taught in American learning institutions and literature, it is noted in most Black history professional circles and literature that the origin of the term "picnic" derives from the acts of lynching African-Americans. The word "picnic" is rooted from the whole theme of "Pick A Nigger." This is where individuals would "pic" a Black person to lynch and make this into a family gathering. There would be music and a "picnic." ("Nic" being the white acronym for "nigger.") Scenes of this were depicted in the movie "Rosewood."

We should choose to use the word "barbecue" or "outing" instead of the word "picnic."

Please forward this e-mail to all of your family and friends and let's educate our people.

 

[soupwarsproject]

We live in the United States and have done so with years and have travelled to many other places. There is a degree of intolerance and tolerance for ethnic groups everywhere one goes. With that said, we feel that there is really no reason why we (or any other like-minded person) should encourage such attitudes. We feel that one of the best ways to get rid of the "Interracial" category is to not read, submit stories or participate in said category. It's that simple. If no one consumes the product, people will stop producing it. A lot of our stories have themes of intolerance, as well as cultural harmony. As a matter of fact, one of our incest stories could technically be construed as "Interracial" since the mother is light-skinned, the son is darker and both contain different "racial" types in their genes. Another has a Germanic/Mexican woman with a Chinese man, but it really isn't the main point of the story, so it isn't a big issue for anything other than descriptive purposes. I think its more useful to categorize stories by actions rather than by skin color. After all, race is really in the eye of the beholder.

Cheers,
Vas the Puerto Rican, French, Native Am., Celt-Iberian, African Mix
and Loki the German, Polish, Romani, etc. Mix from SWP

 

[OldnotDead]

I'm begging you

You never heard the following:

This e-mail is being sent to you as a public service announcement and as information in the form of a little known Black History Fact. This information can also be found in the African American Archives at the Smithsonian Institute.

Please read my earlier post and the link, which I will quote again here.

http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/picnic.htm

I'm begging you to edit your own post as this is well documented to have been an internet hoax of the worst kind. Read the entire page including the part about SUNY's campus reaction in spite of their own English professor ridiculing this myth.

It's origin is FRENCH and was in use in England long before it came to America. There is NO documentation of such a use by the Smithsonian.

Please, do not propagate this very mean spirited, infamous hoax.

OnD

 

[BlackSnake]

One thing that I have learned is that I would rather be hated and told to my face than tolerated and stabbed in the back.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Without a doubt, there are morons out there who think that some colors are better than others, but not EVERYONE is out to get you. Do be careful, BS, you wouldn't want to end up like that guy what's-his-name, over at the GB, who thinks that anyone who doesn't agree with him hates him and wants to do bad things against him.

 

[Seattle Zack]

You never heard the following:

... the origin of the term "picnic" derives from the acts of lynching African-Americans. The word "picnic" is rooted from the whole theme of "Pick A Nigger." This is where individuals would "pic" a Black person to lynch and make this into a family gathering.

I don't know if you meant this tongue-in-cheek or not, BlackSnake, because I've heard it before presented as absolute fact. There's no real etymological evidence to support it, however, as the real coining of the word seems to be British and the origin of the word dates back to 17th century France.

According to the 1911 version of the Encyclopedia Brittanica, picnic is a form of entertainment in which the guests are invited to join an excursion to some place where a meal can be taken in the open air. During the first half of the 19th century the essential of a picnic was that the guests should each bring with them a contribution of provisions.

At the beginning of the 19th century a society was formed in London called the "Picnic Society," the members of which supped at the Pantheon in Oxford Street, and drew lots as to what part of the meal each should supply (see L. Melville, The Beaux of the Regency, 1908). The French form pique-nique is said to be of recent introduction in 1692 (Menage, Diet. etym.). It is unclear whether picnic is merely a rhyming word, or can be referred to pique, pick, and nique, small coin.

--Zack (who spends too much time with the OED)

 

[ffreak]

OK, so let me tell you my naive take on this.

1) the category should be intercultural IMHO - a broader definition to place it more firmly in the global context of Lit's readership.

2) to some, it is the thing that makes the stereotype a forbidden thing (declared by some fool in their childhood, generally) that makes 'inter-racial' hold some kind of arousal for them - if we can have non-consent and extreme, I guess we can provide some kind of outlet and hopefully, growth, for these folks.

3) golden children (children from the conception of people of different races) are the best possible future to eliminate racial problems (yes I know this is a Utopian dream - humans will always derive some way to tell the sneetches apart).

To me, having grown-up in Southern California, the most beautiful women I saw, had devastating, first glance, crushes on, were the Mexican women. Simply because their skin was so smooth and evenly colored - clothes or no clothes (no tan lines). Later, when I began to gain more awareness of the world around me, I noticed that women who had parents from different parts of the world were also intriguing in their color - especially the variety of color and texture in their lips and their nipples, and the gates to their most secret place. But their skin was always a shade of real color that I could never achieve, let alone maintain - something to behold and appreciate. And I knew a girl whose mother was Okinawan (she'd tell you in a heart-beat she was not Japanese) and whose father was Nigerian - she had the most beautiful deep reddish brown skin.

OK, so this pale white Jew has a thing for the beauty of the human body. I grew-up half-way between Watts and East L.A. and went to the last High-School in L.A. county that did not have a fence. But we had kids from the Hoover and Jefferson areas, kids from Bell Gardens, kids from exchange programs, etc. We had every race I've ever met and many sub-cultural variations. I knew kids from Hawaii and Fiji, from Germany and Nigeria.

The stupidest thing I ever witnessed was the Watts riots - and I mean stupid on all sides (there were more than two - don't let me get going on this - I had friends, retired friends, living in Watts who lost everything they had to complete strangers).

Racism is stupid in any form. It isn't that long ago that the tribes of native Americans in the northwest practiced a form of slavery that they justified by saying anyone not of their tribe was not a person, but a lower form of animal. Europeans and white Americans spent centuries trying to 'define' black African's as something other than human by measuring the thickness of their bones or the ratio of their skull shapes. All of it in the end is no more than a way for one group to use excuses to steal from the other group.

-FF (all children are beautiful - sometimes they grow into beautiful men and women)

ps. oh yeah, the thread topic - I don't generally read stories in the interracial category because I'm not intrigued by any such taboos (much to the chagrin of my grandparents) or by demeaning stereotyping or cover fetishes that I don't happen to be attracted to. However I do read SvenskaFlicka stories precisely because they examine the beauty that is found in contrast.

pps. ok, yeah, I even like pale white girls where the defining beauty is in how their eyebrows, or their eyes, or their freckles become the landmarks of their body - especially their naked bodies. Still not a big fan of tan lines - more of a fan of nipples and other sensitive spots and flavors.

believe it or not this was edited to cut out whole sections on folks I've known who showed dignity in the face of discrimination.

 

[destinie21]

I don't know if you meant this tongue-in-cheek or not, BlackSnake, because I've heard it before presented as absolute fact. There's no real etymological evidence to support it, however, as the real coining of the word seems to be British and the origin of the word dates back to 17th century France.

Damn I hadn't wanted this to turn into a racial debate but I see thats the way it's going to be. People get caught up on words and language, As I said in my earlier post it's the misuse of the word coined as slang very much in the way that nigger was coined in the black community as an endearment and not a derrogatory phrase. That doesn't mean that the origins of the word did not denote a raccial slur it simply means that now when used in the context I presented it's different.

The use of the word picnic is documented in the book
At the Hands of Persons Unknown: The Lynching of Black America
the author escapes me but I'll look it up and post the name. It's also documented by the BIRG Black Issues Research Group. Although not taught in American history though much of what should be taught is left out of that story.

edited to add Philip Dray as the author of the book.

 

[Seattle Zack]

Unfortunately, this is one of those Internet hoaxes/Urban Legends that surfaced about four years ago and has seemed to take on a life of its own. The exact same copy of BlackSnake's e-mail (signed by one "Delores Hollins") appeared on hundreds of bulletin boards. The email bears one of the classic signs of an urban legend: a reference to the "Smithsonian Institute" instead of "Smithsonian Institution".

Nothing in it is true, especially the Smithsonian part. In fact, several years ago one etymological website (www.takeourword.com) got so many inquiries about this that they contacted the Smithsonian directly:

"Just in case the Smithsonian Insititution actually was spreading this story, we contacted Dr. Alonzo Smith, a research fellow in Africa-American Studies at the Institution. Dr. Smith graciously provided us with the following reply:

I have several points to make about this allegation.

1) There are several archival collections that pertain to African Americans within the Smithsonian Institution; the most extensive ones being the Anacostia Museum, and the National Museum of American History. While I do not profess an exhaustive knowledge of these archival materials, I have never heard of this information in any of them. However, I am virtually certain that if it did exist, someone would have published it by now, and I know that this has not been the case.

2) It is not generally agreed in professional academic circles that the origin of the word "picnic" comes from the selection of an African American for a lynching.

3) To attempt to tie lynchings to family outings, where food was served, is to misunderstand the real nature of these events. Rather, they were outbreaks of mass white hysteria, and attempts by groups of Whites to terrorize and brutalize the entire Black communities where they occurred. Often, they were motivated by alleged acts of violence by Blacks against Whites, alleged disrespect and other breaches of Southern racial "etiquette", and on many occasions, victims were chosen at random. Although women and children were frequently present, it is more accurate to view these events as collective psychotic behavior, rather than family outings.

4) In many instances, the victims were tortured and burned to death, hence the obscene humor referring to "barbecuing".

5) I have read several accounts and analyses of lynching, and have not ever found reference to this alleged origin of the word picnic. I refer you to one of the most recent studies, Under Sentence of Death: Lynching in the South, by W. Fitzhugh Brundage, Chapel Hill, University of South Carolina Press, 1997.

6) Those who raise this question are correct in one vital respect: it was a barbaric, and sometimes random act, that served to forge racial solidarity among Southern white people whose identities and psyches were unstable because of rapid social and technological changes.

Alonzo Smith, Ph.D."

 

[pop_54]

Honestly, does the race of the paticipants really define a story? Are there pepole out there that find sex between blacks, whites, asian, eskimos or whatever either appalling or more exciting than if they hump their own hue? It this really a social taboo anymore?
(And why is there even such a word as Interracial, in this day and age?)

As far as I'm concerned, we could just as well draw the line between tall and short pepole. Or between the thin and the fat, and call it Interweight.

What am I missing here?

Don't put ideas in their heads mate, there's enough stupid fucking categories now
I remember a thread a while back, God knows who by, calling for more categories, jeez

Sad fact of life is, as you say some folks are offended by some things, incest, rape, BDSM, shit eating, piss drinking, sheep shagging, garderobes, farting, you name it, and it gets categorised to avoid offence to those who don't wish to read about it.

Due unfortunately to certain religious attitudes and lifetime of anti anything else education some folks get offended by interracial sex acts between black and white people, or asian and white people, or asian and black people, or chinese and japanese people, or etc, etc. So it gets categorised, I suppose that's the reason, I'd hate to think there were racist undertones from the site admin to the category. (Which I know there aren't)

Now it's obvious you aren't racist, neither am I . I have many black and asian friends, and a couple of chinese come to think of it.

I am also guilty of interracial sex acts in real life, with both black and asian women, lovely girls all and as a very close friend always says, black on white is a lovely contrast, or in my case white on black/brown

The tone of this thread so far seems to be all directed towards black man / white woman, which is understandable because there are few stories on the boards relating to the other way round, (another puzzle to me, must remember to write one), and the undertone seems to be one of accusation that all white people in the US are racist, I can't comment on that, I'm British.

Unpopular though it will make me I must point out that whites aren't the only racists in the world, as a white guy I'd not dare walk down a street in Brixton arm in arm with a black girl, I wouldn't make it to the half way point alive. On the other hand we have a neighbour who's married to a black girl and nobody takes a blind bit of notice around here all perfectly normal and acceptable.

We have a friend, (asian lady) who was caught screwing a white guy and wound up cast out by her family, lucky they didn't kill her, very strict on that from the Indian sub continent, but that was inter religion more than sex I think.

So to sum up, interracial category is a warning to all bigots from all races that things may be too hot for them in these stories, seems OK to me, hell live and let live me.

pops..........

 

[ffreak]

Smithsonian publication awareness aside, I have heard the term intentionally used in exactly the manner described here in Rome, Georgia, a little over 10 years ago. Within the space of five minutes after having heard it at an out of the way gas station I was told that I could get my jew-boy ass out of there and not try to speak unless spoken to. (I was inquiring as to the price of a #10 washtub hanging in the window).

Don't forget that often, the academic bugblatter beasts, just like racists, do not give credit or historical credence to anything not 'discovered' within their own hallowed halls. If they didn't decide to write about it, if one of their own tenured staff has not documented and analyzed their personal experience of the subject, it doesn't exist.

This does not mean that someone didn't use such a phrase to try to inflame people and end-up with their attempt labeled a hoax (gee, I wonder how racists of all ethnic groups do their recruiting)

-FF (I later learned that I had stumbled upon the business of the local Klan - Rome, Georgia seems to the location of a regional headquarters, who were lamenting 'the days when they could pic-a-nic for some night-time fun')

ps. they did use the 'a' in the middle of the phrase - and 40 miles further south, in Cherokee, the same night, I was asked what a jew-boy was doing in red-neck territory (less than 2 miles from the local Cherokee tribal meeting grounds)

pps. I don't travel through Rome, GA anymore.

 

[OldnotDead]

Use vs Origin

The use of the word picnic is documented in the book
At the Hands of Persons Unknown: The Lynching of Black America
the author escapes me but I'll look it up and post the name. It's also documented by the BIRG Black Issues Research Group.And again in the African American Archives at the Smithsonian Institute. Although not taught in American history though much of what should be taught is left out of that story.

Destinie,

Your statement referencing the USE of the word is not something I can dispute with the resources I have.

But I stand by my plea to BlackSnake to edit his post and not use the inflamatory email that is a true hoax referencing the ORIGIN of the word and stating that it is derived from a use that may not be disputed.

I will look for the other works you reference to learn more about this somewhat obscure concept, but it is important to note the distinction between use and origin.

OnD

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Use vs Origin

But I stand by my plea to BlackSnake to edit his post and not use the inflamatory email that is a true hoax referencing the ORIGIN of the word and stating that it is derived from a use that may not be disputed.

Dear OnD,
BS has never let facts affect his vehemently held views.
MG

 

[Icingsugar]

Förresten, "tax" betyder "skatt" på engelska. Tax heter "Dachshound"...

Hmm. Sedan jag sett en Far Side-ruta med en demonstration mot en viss sort små kortbenta hundar och orden "Read my lips, no more taxes" antog jag att det var något som till och med jänkare skulle fatta.

 

[Guest]

Sugar, please don't label your poems 'drivel'. I sent you feedback and gave you 4s (I don't give 5s on poetry). Like Gauche earllier you do me a personal disservice traducing your work.

regards, Perdita

 

[Angeline]

Love is love and desire is desire and sometimes they are played out in a need to subjugate or be subjugated. Obviously that should not have anything to do with skin color (I refuse to refer to any race but the human one--everything else is arbitrarily imposed), but it can.

Here in America we clash with our stupid fears and misunderstandings about all the isms on a daily basis, so that many of us find it easier to hide among our "own kind" than to face the possibility that what we were taught is wrong. Sadly, even now, openly acknowledging that differences in how we look, what's between our thighs, or who we want to get in bed with has nothing to do with our value as humans can still result in shunning or worse. Taboos and fascination with them grow out of this warped perspective, and they crop up in every story category here, just like they crop up everywhere in life.

Getting rid of a category won't change anything, and Svenska's points are well taken--bodies of varying skin tones look good together.

I worry less about the stories here (because I think little can be done unless a story is very obviously offensive), than I do about being clear to my children in word and deed that we're all just people. That's the most effective way to combat it to me. You can't change the world, but you can change you.

 

[Icingsugar]

I have a lot on my mind here regarding the latest turns of this thread. From pondering the issue of Race semantics and the general idea of interracial relationshiops to arguing over black America issue semantics.

I just wanted to say that I'm not touching the latter with a ten foot pole. Like I said, I have a lot on my mind, but very little that I could put into words. It a universe so far from my own multi-cultural experiences that I wouldn't know where to begin. To me, it personifies the term "powder keg", and is likely to blow up in someone's face sooner than later.


Perdita, I'll look over my sig. Anything to make you happy, hun.

 

[Guest]

It a universe so far from my own multi-cultural experiences that I wouldn't know where to begin.

Perdita, I'll look over my sig. Anything to make you happy, hun.

I'm out of the discussion too, mostly because the level of thinking is too uneven, and I cannot be that objective myself. (Also because I cannot bear BS's word violence.)

Sugar, don't do it for me, your poems are fine and I hate to see diffidence publicly stated. I'm innately diffident too, but I can't allow others to be.

Perdita

p.s. James Joyce wrote drivel-like poems but I like that he called his book "Pomes Pennyeach". Can you think of a similar title using your currency?

 

[ffreak]

IcingSugar and Svenskaflicka:

There's a basic problem in translation that is very difficult to overcome. Whenever a person sees a word that has bad connotations within their culture, even though that word means something entirely different in the other language, it is virtually impossible to remove the image.

However, you've helped the cause tremendously by letting me see my local tax assessor as a wiener dog.

-FF http://pushedpeople.com/images/wiener.bmp (not mine, I don't draw that good)

 

[raphy]

All done. Definitely not commenting anymore. Iceman, you regretting opening this particular can of worms yet?

Raph, staying way out of the way now.

 

[Angeline]

However, you've helped the cause tremendously by letting me see my local tax assessor as a wiener dog.

Are we neighbors? That weiner dog looks astonishingly like *my* tax assessor.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Since we're talking about words, do you realize that when you say you where gyped, or that your going dutch that those are both racial slurs? (gypsies cheat, and the dutch are cheep) Many are so used to saying they 'jewed' somebody, they don't even realize that jew means jew! Also, I just found out that 'jerry-rig' has annother name that I had never heard in my life.

I wonder, esp. blacksnake, what do you think of the term "white trash?" to me it always sounded like it was ment to say, just as bad, worse than or no better than those black people. PWT, more commonly used by blacks than whites, I believe means, what exactly- they maybe white, but there still lower than us? As a white person if I use the term 'white trash' is it disrespectful towards blacks as well as whites, or is this connotation in my head? (Please understand what I am saying, I am not saying that blacks are low, only that it seems to be implied in the phrase)

I don't consider myself a racist, but I think all of us have some prejudices and are racist to some extent. I think that race is something of a social construct adn doesn't really matter, but on another level it does matter. I think it would be cool if the supremisists worst fear where realized and we all became 'mud-babies' because then they would see that nothing really horible would happen becuase of it. But on the other hand, I think that it would be a terible loss of diversity. And I don't think it will ever happen. I think if you look you will see there always has and always will be light and dark skinned people on *every* continent. What we think of as 'asian' the asians have devided up into how many ever races they have. Some are light and some are dark. I think no matter how much intermariage takes place, marked diferences will always exist and people will always be able to divide ourselves into categories.

You will never get rid of categories, it's some kind of human obsession, to lable and categorieze. It simplifies and organizes and it helps us think. (Like it or not)

As for lit, why have categories at all? Why not just lump them all together "Stories" Well becuase we like to have some sort of order a system. Why have tthe dewy decimal system in the library? why not just put all the books in abc order?

A category is just a category. It can be used for good or evil. the category itself is not bad. When I lived in an all white town we didnt' talk about race. Polite people didn't 'notice' such things. Now I think, how patronizing! As if skincolor where a shameful thing! Talk about it! Talkk about it! Talk about it! In the city, I hear all the time, "the white girl, the black girl, the lightskinned girl, the dark girl with the big lips, the big booty girl, the mexican girl, the mixed girl, the white girl who talks like she's black... We dont' whisper, we're not ashamed to notice, to describe. 'Black' is not a bad word. Race exists. there's nothing so terible in admiting it. By and large there is a 'black' culture and a 'white' cultere. No it is not completlly homogenous, but lets not pretend it doesn'st exist. That's either blind, nieve or stubborn. Colorblind is not my idea of the ideal. I cringe when I hear it, becuase it's straight up denial of reality and I think it's folly. Race, cultere, there not the same, but there intertwined. Idealism is ok, but burying your head in the sand is another ball of wax.

I covered too many topics in one post. I'm sorry. I got carreid away. It's very late. End rant.

____________________________
Sweetnpetite

 

[destinie21]

As for lit, why have categories at all? Why not just lump them all together "Stories" Well becuase we like to have some sort of order a system. Why have tthe dewy decimal system in the library? why not just put all the books in abc order?

A category is just a category. It can be used for good or evil. the category itself is not bad. When I lived in an all white town we didnt' talk about race. Polite people didn't 'notice' such things. Now I think, how patronizing! As if skincolor where a shameful thing! Talk about it! Talkk about it! Talk about it! In the city, I hear all the time, "the white girl, the black girl, the lightskinned girl, the dark girl with the big lips, the big booty girl, the mexican girl, the mixed girl, the white girl who talks like she's black... We dont' whisper, we're not ashamed to notice, to describe. 'Black' is not a bad word. Race exists. there's nothing so terible in admiting it. By and large there is a 'black' culture and a 'white' cultere. No it is not completlly homogenous, but lets not pretend it doesn'st exist. That's either blind, nieve or stubborn. Colorblind is not my idea of the ideal. I cringe when I hear it, becuase it's straight up denial of reality and I think it's folly. Race, cultere, there not the same, but there intertwined. Idealism is ok, but burying your head in the sand is another ball of wax.

I covered too many topics in one post. I'm sorry. I got carreid away. It's very late. End rant.

____________________________
Sweetnpetite

Here we go. I can't stand categories like interracial because the sole reason for separation is based on race at least with the other categories the difference comes to the actual sex act. And yes I understand that some people perfer different ethnicities and as I stated before I have no problem with that but if that's the case why not have a category devoted to natural blondes?
I'm not ashamed of my race and I never have been I'm black
and that's what I'm going to stay no matter what label it comes under. Although to those who rename us every few years and those who insist on being called african american I say "nigga please" On the above issues I won't change my mind and I know that's the attitude that most people will have so now I'm just content to share. Yes I know know it's easy to say it's just a category but I can't trivialize it when I have a grandmother who stil remembers signs saying no blacks or dogs allowed nor can I forget that even in my father's time (He grew up in the south)
He had to call the boy who was younger than him and lived down the street Mr.Bobby because this child was white. I also can't forget the names I was called and I don't want anyone to get me wrong it was the black children too.


ps: Enie meanie miney moe and pickaninny have both been used as raccial euphemisms.
pps: to SP I know your comments weren't aimed at me and I took no offense in them as I can understand where your coming from.
to everyone: Please everyone realize that this is not a personal attack and let's alll or at least for the most part try to be adults.

 

[ffreak]

Well I for one would like to thank everyone here for being able to have a discussion like this. These posts obviously let people explore opionions and feelings on a volitile subject. And no one got vile. Perhaps this is a sign that we, as writers, are willing to examine our feelings rather than become victims to a violent rage.

-FF (liking the round table better each day)

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Enie meanie miney moe and pickaninny have both been used as raccial euphemisms.

I guess there's a logic explanation for this, but for the lfie of me, I can't see the connection..?

Svenskaflicka
Happily Living In the Land of Innosence