What do do about content regulation at Literotica

[SimonDoom]

Most of my outrage comes from my work as a VE these past few months. I'm working with real people suffering real stress and frustration from this bullshit. I'm simply appalled by the fact that people in this thread are assembling the pro-censorship-regime version of The Narcissist's Prayer. Bonus points because "you deserved it" gets trotted out much sooner.

I don't think this is a fair characterization of the attitude on this thread, or of what people are saying. Just about everyone acknowledges the rules can be somewhat opaque and are not always evenly applied. It can be frustrating. I've had two stories that were initially rejected, but they were subsequently accepted after I sent a short explanatory note to the site owner. So, I sympathize with those who get rejections but can't figure out why.

I understand being frustrated, but I don't understand being "outraged." This is a free site owned and operated by two people, and they have to deal with 100 stories being submitted every single day. There is no way for them to read every submission carefully. They must make snap judgments, and inevitably those snap judgments are sometimes wrong. There are real things in the world to be outraged about; Literotica's story submission system isn't one of them.

I've also been around here long enough and have seen enough complaints about content regulation and the story submission process to know that 90+% of the time people's confusion would be resolved if they paid closer attention to what the rules are and the intent behind those rules. That may or may not be the case with the person you are trying to help. I would recommend taking TheRedChamber up on his offer to assist. A fresh pair of eyes on the story may be what it needs.

 

[RowanWrites]

I've been following this thread.

I've written on literotica a few times now under different alts, and I realize I have left twice. Both times in a bit of a huff because a story was rejected without explanation, and I simply could not find any way, shape, or form under which I violated the letter or spirit of the law.

But... I *was* playing close to the edges, age-wise.

So, after sober reflection on *why* I am writing here on literotica, for free, I decided to give it one more go, and simply keep far away from that edge. My first chapter arguably played too close to the non-consent edge, which I hadn't been thinking about because there is a whole non-consent section, but fortunately, it didn't cross whatever that line is.

When I reflect on my own experiences, and also note neuroparenthetical's experiences, I think there are fundamentally two scenarios.

(1) A person can be on literotica as a self-motivating tool to help get the writing process flowing, get some slightly gamified feedback, and focus on refining the craft with an eventual objective of seeking out a bigger audience in a more professional venue. Literotica has a low barrier to entry and a fair number of readers. It's good for all of that. A person with this objective should simply steer clear of the grey areas. *** I have problems with this, but it's a very clear-cut approach. ***

(2) A person can be on literotica to write from their passionate core, in the hopes of connecting with readers who share that passion. If your passionate core is anywhere in or even adjacent to these grey areas, Literotica is probably not the place for you. Art can respond with real creativity to a well defined structure, but Literotica doesn't offer that. It offers a minefield of "what mood was the owner in" and "who complained about something". My own experience was, the creative process led me to paths where the story demanded something in the grey area, and I put my foot on a landmine. I even tried to revert to scenario (1) and undertake a craftsman's edit to get everything out of the grey zone, but it was a no go. (When I quit in a huff that time, I asked that my stories be removed, because I didn't like leaving a series unfinished on the site, but they never did that either.)

Needless to say, scenario 2 is simply not a healthy way to approach writing on literotica. It's too bad, because of all genres, I think erotica should have the bravery and freedom to break the rules of real life. Vladimir Nabokov could not have published Lolita here, but tentacle monsters can ravage stunningly youthful 18 year olds all day long.

BUT: this is the internet. The whole thing could end up a haven for pedophiles and rapists and I don't think -- well, I hope -- none of us want that either. (See also this twitter thread about a bartender.)

The big problem with (1) is that it leads to self-censorship. Playing it safe, we color inside the lines, and begin to internalize this framework of what is acceptable -- a death knell for true art.

If I ran literotica, I would do it differently. But I don't, and if I did there's nothing to say my approach would yield a better result.

But I am also in awe of the owners of literotica, for running this site day and night for decades. It's an incredible achievement. And I completely understand why they have taken the approach that they have.

For those whose writing does not go near the grey area at all, this is an uncomplicated and joyful place for either scenario (1) or (2). For those who are drawn to those edges, there's no great answer, but personally, I have chosen to consciously undertake (1), and hopefully build my own craft and capabilities to the point where I feel comfortable and confident working with a broader palette in some other venue.

The thing I would tell any other writer, from my own experience is simple:

Keep in mind at all times that Literotica is not a company. It's not professional. The whole thing could go tits-up tomorrow if the owners decide it's too much work. All your work could disappear at any time. And that goes for any individual story, for any reason. I got super self-righteous about the "injustice" of the application of the rules, and it did absolutely nothing for me. So, now, it's strictly write-and-release. Once I hit the publish button, it's out of my hands. If something dies on the vine, then c'est la vie. Move on to the next thing.

Because that's what writing is all about. It's about the writing. It's about discovering the next story.

And the more in my head I am about the last story, the more I am not writing the next one.

 

[KeithD]

These discussions do seem to bring out both the extent to which folks can feel entitled about something they aren't paying for and that the Web site is what it is, pretty much impervious to redecorating advice even when it is constructive.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Keep in mind at all times that Literotica is not a company. It's not professional. The whole thing could go tits-up tomorrow if the owners decide it's too much work. All your work could disappear at any time. And that goes for any individual story, for any reason.

This is very good advice. It's a twenty-year-old website with what appears to be a large helping of technical debt and a low bus number. Enjoy it for what you can get for it, but don't put all your eggs in this one basket.

 

[RowanWrites]

This is very good advice. It's a twenty-year-old website with what appears to be a large helping of technical debt and a low bus number. Enjoy it for what you can get for it, but don't put all your eggs in this one basket.

I do hope they would sell it before they shut it down or rather than just let it turn stale! But without a succession plan in place, it's anyone's guess.

 

[Auden James]

Stories rejected for something not even human being 15 years old, yet "Raping Chay" has been on the all time most faved list since I've been here.

I don't know what kind of version of this site you're reading, but as of today there's no "Raping Chay" story online on this site anymore. There's only a—apparently—russian mirror available of a story titled "Raping Chay" by some "tempted_teacher" (who still exists as a member in LIT's database, but without any submissions). Hence, evidently, what you're claiming here is untrue.

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't know what kind of version of this site you're reading, but as of today there's no "Raping Chay" story online on this site anymore. There's only a—apparently—russian mirror available of a story titled "Raping Chay" by some "tempted_teacher" (who still exists as a member in LIT's database, but without any submissions). Hence, evidently, what you're claiming here is untrue.

Then they finally removed it after I kept bringing it up, which is the MO here, they get shamed into doing something, but never acknowledge it. I notice that when I used to link the term budding breasts and it turned up pages of stories there's no longer any.

Much like threads that were started for blatant underage stories that despite being reported were still here until multiple people in the thread also reported it and bitched about it, then....gone, but never a post to even say 'yeah, that one slipped through'.

But the mirror story-and the author's name still listed proves it was here, and I'm sure its on the wayback machine because as old as it was people must have archived it, but let's do this.

This is a Lit member's favorites page. Listed is Raping Chay. The link is now dead, but its proof the story existed. There will be a few thousand pages with this story on it, so you can take your untrue and file it away with all your brownie points and attempt to call me a liar. Which is easy from across the net, chivalry is all but dead, but bandwidth courage lives on.

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=2929024&page=favorites

Notice the original story was posted in 2004, I recall it still being here earlier this year when I was scrolling through the top fav list. 18 years that story sat here with that title. TBH its unfair they finally removed it and will blame the author when fact is it should have never cleared the fence here.

Meanwhile for a site that doesn't allow rape, here's a keyword search.

https://search.literotica.com/?query=rape

Now not all of these are full non con, but point is why does a site saying they don't want rape stories allow the word in a title and tagline....more so how is it the site can and will kick back something with a number in it, even when its out of context to age, but somehow can't eliminate that word?

Because its not programmed to because....I'll let you use your amazing intellect to piece that together.

For now, I'll trade you a Chay for a Nikki

https://www.literotica.com/s/raping-nikki

 

[lovecraft68]

simply appalled by the fact that people in this thread are assembling the pro-censorship-regime version of The Narcissist's Prayer. Bonus points because "you deserved it" gets trotted out much sooner.

They're just brown nosing, but at some point the inevitable will happen, and they will get a story kicked back and they will come here crying in outrage and proving the saying about censorship, that they come for everyone and you do nothing, then when they come for you, there's no one left to defend you, because you let it happen to them.

Matter of fact Mr Pixel has a thread "I never thought I'd run afoul of the under aged rule" and yet...he did.

 

[Auden James]

Then they finally removed it after I kept bringing it up, which is the MO here, they get shamed into doing something, but never acknowledge it. . . . TBH its unfair they finally removed it and will blame the author when fact is it should have never cleared the fence here.

That may be so, but I'd still be interested to learn why you thought it necessary to all this time keep bringing up that particular story?

I've read it now since it's indeed still available on the wayback machine (last snapshot from February 2017), but I cannot see anything in it that was not in accordance with LIT's rules—even those for the NonConsent category. In the latest snapshot of the story it's explicitely stated that the girls involed are both 18, and the eponymous daughter ultimately enjoys having nonconsensual sex with her father, just as required by Laurel (see the publishing guidelines). So why would you have "Raping Chay" retracted? Just because it mentions "rape" in its title? As far as I can see a ban—official or inoffical—of the term "rape" has yet to be reported on this site.

But the mirror story-and the author's name still listed proves it was here, and I'm sure its on the wayback machine because as old as it was people must have archived it, but let's do this.

Yes, though the point wasn't that "Raping Chay" was once online on this site, but that you stated that it had been on the all time most faved list since the first day you've been here, which was and still is simply untrue (see above).

Meanwhile for a site that doesn't allow rape, here's a keyword search.

And this statement of yours that LIT wouldn't allow rape is simply untrue too. Unless you want to define "rape" in such a way as to exclude from it any and all occurances of nonconsensual sex in which the rapee receives some thrill or enjoyment from the acts or is not seriously a/o permanently physically harmed/abused/maimed/killed. Though I cannot help wondering if you wouldn't run the risk with this definitional strategy of being labelled some kind of "rape apologist" (or even worse) by numerous parties unsympathetic to your understanding of "rape?" So why choose this definitional strategy in the first place?

They're just brown nosing, but at some point the inevitable will happen, and they will get a story kicked back and they will come here crying in outrage and proving the saying about censorship, that they come for everyone and you do nothing, then when they come for you, there's no one left to defend you, because you let it happen to them.

Matter of fact Mr Pixel has a thread "I never thought I'd run afoul of the under aged rule" and yet...he did.

I really don't see what ground you're trying to cover here. So, on the one hand you're pro-censorship about rape stories not containing "rape" the way you define it (see above), but on the other hand you're anti-censorship about underage stories? Again, I'm wondering what you think you'll achieve by running the risk of not only being labelled a rape apologist but also a pedophile?