What does "dark" mean?

[M_K_Babalon]

Darkest thing I've probably wrote here, is probably Babalon's Curse. Under my other name, would be this incest story where the mom is obsessed with her son, that I never finished.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Suffering doesn't always mean dark though. At least not to me.

Using my own stories as examples:
My Son Riley Starts off with a tragedy, and has the MC nearly in tears the whole time. But I think it has a hopeful thread to it that keeps it from being dark.

Neptune's Blessings Whoa boy, does Mathias suffer, and he continues to suffer, but he never gives up, he never stops trying to survive, he's always looking for an out, and even when he thinks things are hopeless for him, he still hopes that things will get better for his kids. Again, I think the hope is what keeps it from being dark.

Fluffy Bunny Tea Party Is a dark tale of revenge and being willing to do anything, including dying himself to obtain it. Probably the darkest story I've ever written...

So, I guess for me, it's not dark unless you can paint a sign that says, "Abandon all hope"

 

[anthrodisiac]

So, I guess for me, it's not dark unless you can paint a sign that says, "Abandon all hope"

I think it's far darker to have hope, then crush it. Snuff out the light right as their fingers graze its edge. God, I love doing that.

Uh, I mean, I'm really nice and pleasant and would never inflict horrific atrocities on characters

 

[NuclearFairy]

I think it's far darker to have hope, then crush it. Snuff out the light right as their fingers graze its edge. God, I love doing that.

Uh, I mean, I'm really nice and pleasant and would never inflict horrific atrocities on characters

Your last name wouldn't happen to be Vetinari, would it?

 

[gloomyMoron]

Would all distopian stories qualify as dark?

Not necessarily. I would say almost all dystopian stories have elements of darkness, but they, themselves, need not be dark. Most probably are, to be sure, but I can conjure in my head several stories that are in dystopian settings but aren't, themselves, dark.

For the most part, yeah. Even if they don't look like it. Take the game Cyberpunk 2077. It might not look distopian, but it is. There's the corperations run everything, yeah, but on a deep dive, the corperations had waged a war before the point of the game, and many suffered. Night City is the only city for miles in a wasteland. Cybernetics drive people insane, and only the rich can get the cure. Most people don't know there is one. All food is synthetic or made from engineered bugs.

Cyberpunk 2077 is very dystopian though, and appears dystopian even at a surface level. I mean at glance it might not seem so bad, but looking at it any longer than ten seconds should and the disparity should become evident. I, also, don't consider Cyberpunk 2077 inherently dark. Yes, it has a lot of suffering. It has and deals with a lot terrible things the come from society and people. And the corporate take over of society is definitely a grim clarion call about the dangers of corporatization and late stage capitalism that we find ourselves hurdling towards. It certainly isn't a nice world to live in, but there are still themes and threads present that keep it from, in my opinion, being fully dark. Said in another, more succinct way: The world of Cyberpunk 2077 is full of darkness, but itself not entirely dark.

Also concerning synthetic food and engineered bugs: That's not inherently dark. That's just a necessity in that universe and is something that is being researched in real life. Not for the nefarious purposes of profit, but to help combat famine, livestock farms, and the droughts/decreased water/shifting fertile lands caused by climate change.

Even some of the utopian ones are dark.

This, though, I absolutely agree with. Especially if the twist is that the utopia is a façade. One of the books that I remember most from Elementary School and has influenced my thoughts the most (after the Dune series) was The Giver. I read that in... I don't remember if it was 3rd, 4th, or 5th grade, but it has stuck with me for a very long time; 30+ years.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Not necessarily. I would say almost all dystopian stories have elements of darkness, but they, themselves, need not be dark. Most probably are, to be sure, but I can conjure in my head several stories that are in dystopian settings but aren't, themselves, dark.

Cyberpunk 2077 is very dystopian though, and appears dystopian even at a surface level. I mean at glance it might not seem so bad, but looking at it any longer than ten seconds should and the disparity should become evident. I, also, don't consider Cyberpunk 2077 inherently dark. Yes, it has a lot of suffering. It has and deals with a lot terrible things the come from society and people. And the corporate take over of society is definitely a grim clarion call about the dangers of corporatization and late stage capitalism that we find ourselves hurdling towards. It certainly isn't a nice world to live in, but there are still themes and threads present that keep it from, in my opinion, being fully dark. Said in another, more succinct way: The world of Cyberpunk 2077 is full of darkness, but itself not entirely dark.

Also concerning synthetic food and engineered bugs: That's not inherently dark. That's just a necessity in that universe and is something that is being researched in real life. Not for the nefarious purposes of profit, but to help combat famine, livestock farms, and the droughts/decreased water/shifting fertile lands caused by climate change.

This, though, I absolutely agree with. Especially if the twist is that the utopia is a façade. One of the books that I remember most from Elementary School and has influenced my thoughts the most (after the Dune series) was The Giver. I read that in... I don't remember if it was 3rd, 4th, or 5th grade, but it has stuck with me for a very long time; 30+ years.

I'll agree with Cyberpunk. I was trying to think of a utopian movie I saw, that was secretly dark, I can't remember the name, but the woman finds out everybody for decades were clones, that couldn't reproduce. They discovered somebody got pregnant, and she shut down the cloning machine

 

[MillieDynamite]

Darkness in a story can be as different from a lighthearted romp as a succulent slice of white chicken breast is from a burnt-to-a-crisp chicken thigh. I know the difference when I see it or read it.

 

[AG31]

I think, I have to add an alternative quality that can constitute a dark story. As @SimonDoom says, "Dark" is the part of human nature we don't want people to see."

After another day of reflection, I think I have to elevate this to the really essential quality for a dark story. Given that, I'd remove Vignette 3 from my list above. "The part of human nature we don't want people to see" replaces "suffering" in my mind.

 

[anthrodisiac]

I take it back, this is the darkest thing I've written on the site by miles.
https://www.literotica.com/s/eighteen-11

Also, Past Anthy might've told a wee bit of a fib:

Uh, I mean, I'm really nice and pleasant and would never inflict horrific atrocities on characters

 

[AG31]

I take it back, this is the darkest thing I've written on the site by miles.
https://www.literotica.com/s/eighteen-11

Also, Past Anthy might've told a wee bit of a fib:

Given my newly adopted definition of "dark,"

I take it back, this is the darkest thing I've written on the site by miles.
https://www.literotica.com/s/eighteen-11

Given my newly adopted definition of "dark," (see #58), I'm afraid I'm going to have to call this "clever horror" instead of "dark."

 

[ElectricBlue]

Given my newly adopted definition of "dark,"

Given my newly adopted definition of "dark," (see #58), I'm afraid I'm going to have to call this "clever horror" instead of "dark."

What on earth does "clever horror" mean? You need to publish a catalogue for these definitions that no-one else uses .

 

[AG31]

What on earth does "clever horror" mean? You need to publish a catalogue for these definitions that no-one else uses .

Plain old horror, with the addition of a clever ending.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Plain old horror, with the addition of a clever ending.

This is where I'd say, define "clever"!

 

[AG31]

This is where I'd say, define "clever"!

You know it when you see it. No more difficult than defining "horror," is it?

 

[txblush]

Given the replies here I'm developing a hypothesis that (for me, anyway), "dark" implies suffering. Anything from the suffering of a population invaded by zombies to the endurance of pain or humiliation in a BDSM scene.

I'm sure suffering isn't sufficient. It's mere presence doesn't make something dark.

But I think it might be essential (again, for me.)

Of my 10 Lit, pretty harsh, BDSM stories, I would only classify 2 as dark. See below.

So I decided to review the stories presented in this thread as examples of darkness. I have three questions.

1) Does the story qualify as dark for me?

2) Does the story involve suffering of some sort?

3) What, if any, is the extra quality that raises (lowers?) suffering to darkness? OR why wasn't it dark?

Be Still My Beating Heart 1) No 2) No 3) Horror. More clever than dark. And maybe @StillStunned's point is relevant here: "To tap into a dark theme, you have to make the writing dark."
by @ClintonBrooks

Sliding Down the Bank 1) Yes 2) Yes 3) Layers to the character
The Fat, Drunk Chain-Smoker 1) Yes 2) Yes 3) Layers to the character
Never Kiss Your Mark 1) Yes 2) Yes/No 3) I have to think more about "suffering" The darkness here is lack of suffering. ' "Dark" is the part of human nature we don't want people to see.' (@SimonDoom)
by @Bazzle

The Valentine Debt 1) No 2) No 3) The suffering, if present, is too subtle and complicated
by @anthrodisiac

Not a Soul 1) No 2) Yes 3) More horror and cleverness
Love at First Sight 1) Yes 2) No 3) I think I'm modifying my hypothesis about suffering
The Scourge of Sainte Barbara Sorry, I can't read 7 Lit pages on a computer and this was too complex to skim
The Only Flower on Rose Street 1)Yes 2)No 3) "the part of human nature we don't want people to see"
by @StillStunned

An Enigma 1) Yes 2) Yes 3) Deep "loss of agency." Forced by circumstances, not by desire.
Vignette 3 1) Yes 2) Yes 3) Raw suffering/surrender. No moderating aspects like character layers or plot twists
by @AG31


Conclusion: I think, I have to add an alternative quality that can constitute a dark story. As @SimonDoom says, "Dark" is the part of human nature we don't want people to see." This, like suffering, can be an alternative essential, but not sufficient attribute to make a story dark. I learned this by reading Never Kiss Your Mark, Love at First Sight and The Only Flower on Rose Street.

Thanks for providing a hypothesis with links to the stories you read!

 

[AG31]

Would all distopian stories qualify as dark?

I bumped into this question of mine from a few days ago. I now have my own answer. No. "Distopian" is it's own thing. I think it would be rare to encounter an actual exploration of the darker sides of humanity. Distopias are about worlds.

 

[Britva415]

Distopias are about worlds

Not-dark ones?

Like, sure, one could write a sparkly-shiny rainbow-happy story in a dystopian world, but do they?

 

[AG31]

Not-dark ones?

Like, sure, one could write a sparkly-shiny rainbow-happy story in a dystopian world, but do they?

The worlds aren't dark if they don't feature the hidden aspects of human nature. Plain old awfulness isn't necessarily about hiddenness.

 

[Britva415]

The worlds aren't dark if they don't feature the hidden aspects of human nature. Plain old awfulness isn't necessarily about hiddenness.

I see what you mean.

Still: I think that "dystopian" is different from plain old awfulness. I think that dystopian pretty strongly implies that it's awful because humans are being awful to other humans. Maybe at a distance, but it's the culture, commerce and class systems that are dystopian, not the natural difficulties and disasters. And you get "hidden" for free, because any time people are being awful to other people, someone is in denial about it.

Just my opinion. I think it's basically impossible to separate dark from dystopian, except by hiding it.

 

[AG31]

I see what you mean.
Maybe at a distance, but it's the culture, commerce and class systems that are dystopian, not the natural difficulties and disasters.

Yes, that crossed my mind. But I think the thing that clinches it for me is that dystopian doesn't need "dark." It carries its own particular meaning quite well.

 

[Dodola]

"Dark" is the part of human nature we don't want people to see."

Just an observation, people also hide their nature out of embarrassment and fear, which aren't, necessarily, dark.
I don't disagree with your adopted definition, if that's satisfactory for you.

 

[MillieDynamite]

D is for the way I drink your blood
A is for the way fuck your ass
R is for the really, really extraordinary, rare reality of murdering together
K is for the killing we do
DARK is how we move through life!

 

[AG31]

Just an observation, people also hide their nature out of embarrassment and fear, which aren't, necessarily, dark.
I don't disagree with your adopted definition, if that's satisfactory for you.

A good angle on this discussion. I'll have to muse about particular types of hiding. @SimonDoom, you're the one that suggested the definition I adopted. Can you refine it?

 

[TheRedChamber]

A good example of dystopian =/= dark is Gattaca.

The movie makes it clear that society/politics is fucked at a macro level but the little guys are still able to pull out a big personal win (especially if they help each other)

I'd argue that 1984 is grim but isn't dark until the last few pages where Winston loses his ability to fight back on even an internal mental level.

 

[Ianus4]