what first made you think there was something else?

[where]

No, I think that society DOES disapprove, and to think it "shouldn't" is like thinking that dogs shouldn't bark. Or trees shouldn't grow upwards. I can't help feeling that it speaks to a sense of entitlement and center-of-the-universe-ness.

But here's Netz to put it all into perspective;

Yes, this SO MUCH.

well you say society disapproves, but then also that bdsm has moved into the mainstream (albeit in a heteronormative way) and you could argue that much of what was considered part of the counterculture has followed. I really don't think for example that drug use has ever been more widely accepted. Yes, people were doing drugs in the 60s and 70s as part of a subculture, but now, although it's not exactly open, it is widespread and practically in the mainstream. and yes, I think it is because people think they are 'entitled' to do what they want and actually, why not?

I realise that most people, if they knew what I got up to would be horrified and think I'm completely deviant, but although I don't think of what I do is just a bit of saturday night fun as Netz puts it, I don't actually ~feel~ deviant or perverted.it's just me. the life I'm living isn't what I thought it would be, but it's the only way I can live. I'm guarded about what I do/am, but not ashamed.

I think I'm rambling.

 

[shy slave]

[snip]

I think I'm rambling.

Ramblings nah,
It makes sense and brings out new debate of drug use in BDSM/Ds settings

 

[Allyourbase]

Skipping over the sex-part (and the interesting point about wallmart-bondage-kits) a bit: discovering there was this actual 'brand' of sexuality that was seen as deviant...? Hard to pin down. I think it must mainly have been those corny phone sex ads in the newspaper. Couple that with the use of a dictionary/encyclopedia (nothing suspicious there, right?) and you got some knowledge inside your head that isn't of the type you can discuss with your parents.

And I do remember two scenes from movies, that left this impression. (Which movies, no idea.)

One was a thriller, where a man found a videotape with a woman, lying on a bed with a whip. The guy was repulsed that she turned out to be, or had become 'one of those people', is what I remember anyways (and that it was intriguing, that too). The other one was a corny movie with a sex therapist who was, amongst others, treating a lady bondage fan, who was only into forced sex. She was supposed to end up liking 'normal' sex and part of the treatment was making her ask for it. Looking back now... that strikes me as somewhat ironic.

At the end of high school we had to discuss books we'd read. Brave New World was one of 'em, and the teacher asked me about the whipping scene. When he said this was about sadomasochism, I clearly remember being dumbfounded, because hey, I knew that existed, why didn't I recognize it there?

Because not every time someone sways a whip around in fiction it's s&m, I'd say now, but hey, I dunno.

Since then: women's studies. Internet.

Encyclopedias are still hot.

 

[jenniferbaby]

Coming to Lit has changed things for me. Before that, I barely knew what sex was.

I never had any kinky inklings when I was a kid. I liked boys, but my crushes on them were very boring. I did possess an openness about sex and that has led to discoveries I could not have imagined.

 

[Allyourbase]

What I'm having trouble with these days are the people who seem to think that society SHOULD approve, and want to parade their Walmart-purchased bondage gear into the office or something, who approach something exceedingly transgressive as if it were part and parcel of their privilege. It's... scary.

Or is it merely irritating, that what I anguished over in my deepest darkest nights is now laid out, codified, and sold in cute little kits and "how to" articles in Cosmo?

well you say society disapproves, but then also that bdsm has moved into the mainstream (albeit in a heteronormative way) and you could argue that much of what was considered part of the counterculture has followed. [...] and yes, I think it is because people think they are 'entitled' to do what they want and actually, why not?

And, ok, 2 cents on the wallmart-kits, before bed.

I always wonder whether it's still possible to have an actual counterculture, nowadays. It seems everything even remotely challenging of the norm is made harmless, not by suppressing it but by cuddling it to death. By mass producing the props that signify rebellion and selling them to teens. Or overuse countercultural values and beliefs in ads so much, even the word counterculture itself becomes a source of profit.

On the other hand, this culture might swallow everything whole, and that might prevent solid criticism to have a profound effect, but I also wonder whether it's possible to stretch this thing from the inside out. Sure, the fake shit that looks just like the real shit is damaging, but at least the real thing is also there. It's not perfect, but it might help some of us.

Hell, I think pre-ripped shirts with pre-printed anarchy A's are so painfully besides the point it almost becomes funny again. Then again, I can't talk, cause I did once buy a 'kinky' valentine's cuffs-n-whip-kit. Must admit it felt somewhat 'rebellious' we only used it once and quickly decided it was time for some better equipment.

Sounds like a whole new thread, if you ask me.

 

[lovebound]

Great thread! It's already answered a lot of questions for me...

I sort of tripped over kink when I was a schoolgirl. I had a crush on a boy in debate class and he was talking about staging a courtroom scene. He asked me if I wanted to play a juror and without thinking too long about it I said I'd rather play the defendant. He asked me if I wanted to stand up there in handcuffs and when I hesitated he started to tease me about liking bondage. Unfortunately he saw it in a negative light but it was the first time I'd ever heard the word. Thankfully there was the Internet and... Well, I'm pretty sure I searched 'bondage' and then started twiddling my nib to everything I saw. It was like discovering for the first time that a whole other world existed in the shadows.

I read a lot of stories on lit and elsewhere. The rest is history... And present.

 

[where]

Because not every time someone sways a whip around in fiction it's s&m, I'd say now, but hey, I dunno.

yeah... this. I'm enjoying reading the debate about the secretary because to me, that film is not about bdsm. there is reference to bdsm, but it absolutely is not a bdsm film. Not to me, anyway.

And, ok, 2 cents on the wallmart-kits, before bed.

I always wonder whether it's still possible to have an actual counterculture, nowadays. It seems everything even remotely challenging of the norm is made harmless, not by suppressing it but by cuddling it to death. By mass producing the props that signify rebellion and selling them to teens. Or overuse countercultural values and beliefs in ads so much, even the word counterculture itself becomes a source of profit.

On the other hand, this culture might swallow everything whole, and that might prevent solid criticism to have a profound effect, but I also wonder whether it's possible to stretch this thing from the inside out. Sure, the fake shit that looks just like the real shit is damaging, but at least the real thing is also there. It's not perfect, but it might help some of us.

Hell, I think pre-ripped shirts with pre-printed anarchy A's are so painfully besides the point it almost becomes funny again. Then again, I can't talk, cause I did once buy a 'kinky' valentine's cuffs-n-whip-kit. Must admit it felt somewhat 'rebellious' we only used it once and quickly decided it was time for some better equipment.

Sounds like a whole new thread, if you ask me.

I was at a conference recently and Lennard Davis gave a keynote about normalcy and how 'diversity' is in fact the new normalcy, because everyone can choose a gender, sexuality or ethnic identity as part of a consumerist society. it was actually about disability (which Davis contends is excluded from 'diversity, but I digress) but a lot of the stuff he was saying chimed with how I perceive the kink/bdsm 'community'.

 

[YourCaptor]

hmmm, I used to initiate a lot of rows for the angry make up sex that came afterwards, I never really thought of it as a germ in my interest in bdsm. I always thought my route into bdsm was more practical, but you may have a point.

Angry sex is just one example. It can also be domineering, or reluctant, or cathartic, or even bizarre out of boredom sex. The point I think is that lights out cuddle sex is actually not that natural, and we more or less restrict ourselves too it. If we don't limit ourselves bondage happens.

 

[Chiara_searches]

What I'm having trouble with these days are the people who seem to think that society SHOULD approve, and want to parade their Walmart-purchased bondage gear into the office or something, who approach something exceedingly transgressive as if it were part and parcel of their privilege. It's... scary.

Or is it merely irritating, that what I anguished over in my deepest darkest nights is now laid out, codified, and sold in cute little kits and "how to" articles in Cosmo?

I think I have trouble with anything forced upon society as a whole. I liken it to religion: my belief is that you are free to believe what works for you; but don't force me into your belief system. Our sexual natures are similar. We can respect each other's right to choose without being so "in your face" with it. Plus, I like the mystery of things, and "in your face" just kills the mystery and wonder.

At the same time, I was prompted to reply to this post because even if others don't grasp the meaning of the cute little kits and the "how to" articles, there will be a segment that sings "Hallelujah I'm not alone" because of those things. I estimate that I wasted probably 20 years of my life feeling like I was alone and needed to hide these feelings. If those tacky things can help even a few not waste those years, isn't that a good thing to not be irritated about? To know that others may not have the same anguish with which you struggled?

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Ever since I was a kid, power exchange scenes filled my fantasies. I didn't know what it was, exactly, or how the fuck it fit in with the rest of me. But there it was. As I moved into my teens, I discovered force, restraint, hypnosis, vocal commands. From there, my likes became even more clearly defined.

I know what I like.

 

[rekane]

by which I mean sex wasn't just straightforward, or that there was a counterculture or that people did interesting stuff secretly and that society doesn't approve?

was it a wayward relative? a book? a film?

It was Phil Donahue.
He had a woman on his show who worked for a Fortune 500 company in Arizona. She wore a suit, held a responsible position, and, oh by the way, had a male and a female slave in her home whose duties were to keep her sexually happy.

I was about 14 years old, and it was then that my first, longest held fantasy was born.
I wanted to be her.
I wanted to be tended to, serviced sexually.

Imagine my disappointment when I discovered I am ridiculously submissive.

 

[where]

Angry sex is just one example. It can also be domineering, or reluctant, or cathartic, or even bizarre out of boredom sex. The point I think is that lights out cuddle sex is actually not that natural, and we more or less restrict ourselves too it. If we don't limit ourselves bondage happens.

I disagree. cuddle sex is, I think a very natural part of sex. but it is only a part. animals go mad if they don't have that kind of intimate touching contact. Which might be why aftercare is such a big deal.

It was Phil Donahue.
He had a woman on his show who worked for a Fortune 500 company in Arizona. She wore a suit, held a responsible position, and, oh by the way, had a male and a female slave in her home whose duties were to keep her sexually happy.

I was about 14 years old, and it was then that my first, longest held fantasy was born.
I wanted to be her.
I wanted to be tended to, serviced sexually.

Imagine my disappointment when I discovered I am ridiculously submissive.

I have fantasies like that as well. I'm so fucking dominant in my day to day dealings the idea of being a 'pillow queen' (TM Stella) is hugely appealing, but I just can't actually get off on it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

What's to stop you from ordering your slave to dominate you?

 

[Skaoi]

For me I noticed I liked things a little differently whenever I would watch a movie with friends and a rape scene would come on. Some of my friends would tear up at how horrible it was while I was sitting quietly on the couch with drenched panties.

 

[YourCaptor]

I disagree. cuddle sex is, I think a very natural part of sex. but it is only a part. animals go mad if they don't have that kind of intimate touching contact. Which might be why aftercare is such a big deal.

Cuddling or cuddle sex? Cuddling is great. Cuddle sex however is different, more of a, "I'm injured, but horny" thing.

 

[Stella_Omega]

well you say society disapproves, but then also that bdsm has moved into the mainstream (albeit in a heteronormative way) and you could argue that much of what was considered part of the counterculture has followed. I really don't think for example that drug use has ever been more widely accepted. Yes, people were doing drugs in the 60s and 70s as part of a subculture, but now, although it's not exactly open, it is widespread and practically in the mainstream. and yes, I think it is because people think they are 'entitled' to do what they want and actually, why not?

I realise that most people, if they knew what I got up to would be horrified and think I'm completely deviant, but although I don't think of what I do is just a bit of saturday night fun as Netz puts it, I don't actually ~feel~ deviant or perverted.it's just me. the life I'm living isn't what I thought it would be, but it's the only way I can live. I'm guarded about what I do/am, but not ashamed.

I think I'm rambling.

I have never ever felt ashamed of what I do.

I have felt guarded, yes, and that what I wanted was dangerous-- back in the day there were no internets, remember? And it was very difficult to know what might be safe, or how to be safe, or if your partner had any notion at all of what they were doing.

I have felt at times, that I could lose social status, or a job, or been beaten, or raped, or arrested-- any number of dangers that should have had no bearing on my sex life.

Ashamed? No.

 

[teknight]

Encyclopedias are still hot.

NERD!!!

 

[Allyourbase]

NERD!!!

What? They are!

And Barbies tend to punish each other. That too.

 

[where]

What's to stop you from ordering your slave to dominate you?

I couldn't possibly actually order someone to do something sexual! that is just... so... wrong!

Cuddling or cuddle sex? Cuddling is great. Cuddle sex however is different, more of a, "I'm injured, but horny" thing.

both. I do sometimes like cuddle sex. quite often is is when I feel emotionally injured.

I have never ever felt ashamed of what I do.

I have felt guarded, yes, and that what I wanted was dangerous-- back in the day there were no internets, remember? And it was very difficult to know what might be safe, or how to be safe, or if your partner had any notion at all of what they were doing.

I have felt at times, that I could lose social status, or a job, or been beaten, or raped, or arrested-- any number of dangers that should have had no bearing on my sex life.

Ashamed? No.

OK, bad choice of words. I do think you get what I'm driving at, though.

 

[Allyourbase]

For me I noticed I liked things a little differently whenever I would watch a movie with friends and a rape scene would come on. Some of my friends would tear up at how horrible it was while I was sitting quietly on the couch with drenched panties.

I have some vivid memories of things like that too. Does make you feel, uhm, different, right? Though at some point I knew there were other ppl out there that felt more or less the same, it took me some time to realize they weren't necessarily scary or delinquent. Still, somehow I did realize that, before the interwebs found its way into my life. No idea how.

I couldn't possibly actually order someone to do something sexual! that is just... so... wrong!

Oh wait. It is wrong! (Hmmmm wrong )

 

[where]

I have some vivid memories of things like that too. Does make you feel, uhm, different, right? Though at some point I knew there were other ppl out there that felt more or less the same, it took me some time to realize they weren't necessarily scary or delinquent. Still, somehow I did realize that, before the interwebs found its way into my life. No idea how.



Oh wait. It is wrong! (Hmmmm wrong )

nononono! wrong in a wrong way! not a right way!

One day I will try topping someone.

 

[teknight]

nononono! wrong in a wrong way! not a right way!

One day I will try topping someone.

Pick me, pick me?!

 

[where]

Pick me, pick me?!

I'd be so crap at it, though. I'd need someone to show me how.

 

[teknight]

I'd be so crap at it, though. I'd need someone to show me how.

Pick allyourbase then.

 

[Allyourbase]

What's to stop you from ordering your slave to dominate you?

I'd be so crap at it, though. I'd need someone to show me how.

Awesome.

I'd almost say: order your slave to show you how, but I'm pretty sure if we keep this up it'll create a black hole or some shit like that.