What I love about writing English

[StillStunned]

Just now I wrote a sentence:

Remembering that she still needed to find some loot, she moved forward carefully, trying to be as quiet as possible.

"She" is Flower, a member of a gang in a dark sword & sorcery setting. Not that it really matters for this thread, it's just a bit of background.

Anyway, even as I was typing the sentence, I was rewriting it in my mind. I've mentioned a few times that I studied Middle English poetry, and I'm very fond of alliterative verse and the muscular rhythm that it brings to language.

I always try to make my writing as rhythmic as possible, because I think that it helps the reader. The beats of the sentence correspond to the words you want to highlight, so the reader automatically picks out the important bit.

But even without that, alliteration is a powerful tool in writing. You can use reinforce the meaning by making the reader notice the words more, and alliteration is an easy way to do that.

So about half a second after I wrote the sentence, I changed it to this:

Remembering that she still needed to find some loot, she moved forward, careful to be as quiet as she could.

The second half of the sentence is much stronger now. The first half ("Remembering that") feels out of rhythm. It would be much smoother if I wrote:

She needed to find some loot, so she moved forward, careful to be as quiet as she could.

Outside alliterative poetry, this is about as smooth as the English language gets, in my humble-but-I-have-an-MA-in-this-crap-and-25-years'-experience-rewriting-other-people's-English opinion.

Even so, I'm not going to change it a second time. Precisely because of the lack of rhythm, it stands out. The eye stumbles over the sentence, as it were, which is another trick to make the reader pay attention. And whenever the reader pays attention, the story sticks in their mind. At the start of a new paragraph is a good point to demand their focus.

Of course there's a balance. You don't want the reader to be stumbling through the whole text. You want their eye to move forward with as little effort as possible, so the words flow from their screen into their imagination. Effort takes them out of the story, and if it happens too many times you'll lose them.

This is how I write. I consider every word of every sentence, to make my story as effortless to read as possible. This doesn't mean using infantile language, although I won't go out of my way to use fancy words if a simple word will do. It means I don't want my reader to have to focus on understanding the text, if they can instead be focusing on the story.

The more effort I put in, the less I demand from my readers. And seeing as there's little I enjoy doing more, I think that's an excellent deal.

 

[Bramblethorn]

These are good things to consider, and I try to do the same.

The one thing I'd suggest here is to consider striking the "careful" altogether. "As quiet as she could" already implies maximum care; "carefully" feels redundant.

 

[ThatNewGuy]

I like your second sentence best anyway: "Remembering that she still needed to find some loot, she moved forward, careful to be as quiet as she could."

Aside from rhythm and alliteration, I just prefer the construction of it. The "Remembering" phrase puts me in the character's head. Then my attention is drawn to her actions in the here-and-now: "She moved forward." The last phrase adds color and creates tension: "careful to be as quiet as she could."

The third version doesn't quite have the same effect on me, and I think it's all because of one word: "so". "So she moved forward," feels like it puts me at juuust the slightest remove from the action. Rather than "seeing" the character move forward, I feel more like the author is telling, "and then she moved forward."

Just my two cents as a subjective reader. : )

Oh, the fun we have obsessing over just the right way to phrase things, right? But I completely agree with you when you write, "The more effort I put in, the less I demand from my readers." The fewer cognitive stumbling blocks we put in front of a reader, the better their experience will be.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

These are good things to consider, and I try to do the same.

The one thing I'd suggest here is to consider striking the "careful" altogether. "As quiet as she could" already implies maximum care; "carefully" feels redundant.

I would also remove the "careful to be" and make it "she moved forward as quiet as she could." I could even pull a show-don't-tell-thing and write "she moved forward on her tip-toes" or something similar, or just change the verb to something stronger than move forward, like "she sneaked over," or "she skulked around..."

The beauty about any language is that one action, with the right wording, can take you many places.

 

[XerXesXu]

She sought to steal swag, so, silently, she stole.

 

[yowser]

In terms of reader effort, I have no trouble with prose that makes you think (or ponder, or question.) But it's usually best when energetic eyes are up, or ahead, not down at the feet.

Some of my favorite authors (Wallace, Nabokov) are not easy reads, and I don't mind the effort, but it is all higher level effort, one never needs to worry about the tangled tree roots of inadequate grammar below. And if you can get your reader to enjoy the easy rolling sounds of the tale told, as you suggest, then that is wonderful stuff.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

She sought to steal swag, so, silently, she stole.

Gucci.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Just now I wrote a sentence:

"She" is Flower, a member of a gang in a dark sword & sorcery setting. Not that it really matters for this thread, it's just a bit of background.

Anyway, even as I was typing the sentence, I was rewriting it in my mind. I've mentioned a few times that I studied Middle English poetry, and I'm very fond of alliterative verse and the muscular rhythm that it brings to language.

I always try to make my writing as rhythmic as possible, because I think that it helps the reader. The beats of the sentence correspond to the words you want to highlight, so the reader automatically picks out the important bit.

But even without that, alliteration is a powerful tool in writing. You can use reinforce the meaning by making the reader notice the words more, and alliteration is an easy way to do that.

So about half a second after I wrote the sentence, I changed it to this:

The second half of the sentence is much stronger now. The first half ("Remembering that") feels out of rhythm. It would be much smoother if I wrote:

Outside alliterative poetry, this is about as smooth as the English language gets, in my humble-but-I-have-an-MA-in-this-crap-and-25-years'-experience-rewriting-other-people's-English opinion.

Even so, I'm not going to change it a second time. Precisely because of the lack of rhythm, it stands out. The eye stumbles over the sentence, as it were, which is another trick to make the reader pay attention. And whenever the reader pays attention, the story sticks in their mind. At the start of a new paragraph is a good point to demand their focus.

Of course there's a balance. You don't want the reader to be stumbling through the whole text. You want their eye to move forward with as little effort as possible, so the words flow from their screen into their imagination. Effort takes them out of the story, and if it happens too many times you'll lose them.

This is how I write. I consider every word of every sentence, to make my story as effortless to read as possible. This doesn't mean using infantile language, although I won't go out of my way to use fancy words if a simple word will do. It means I don't want my reader to have to focus on understanding the text, if they can instead be focusing on the story.

The more effort I put in, the less I demand from my readers. And seeing as there's little I enjoy doing more, I think that's an excellent deal.

Ahhhh....
Words, such beautiful communicators.
For me there's no right or wrong.
To hell with Grammar and correctness.
We all approach writing differently. When looking at your sentence, I (Personally) Would have written it differently...
Not saying what you wrote is wrong, or mine is better.
We clearly have different styles... Different minds..
Mine would have been.

You wrote.
Remembering that she still needed to find some loot, she moved forward carefully, trying to be as quiet as possible.

I would use, something like.
'She moved cautiously, the need for quiet so vital. Her hungry need need for loot, driving her perilous, yet necessitous search.'

Not a criticism, just my thoughts on the beauty of words. How it's possible to say the same thing in so many ways...

Cagivagurl

 

[PapaRomantic]

I have discovered this recently as I've had Word read my stories back to me as an editing tool. Even going through the story four or five times, I change sentence order or change the words I'm using, mostly because I can hear and sense the mood of a particular place in a story better as a listener than I often can as a writer. I have not yet done a auditory edit session where I listened all the way through and have not changed something, and honestly, I'm not sure I could ever do that.

Perhaps it goes even deeper than that. It may have something to do with my own mental state at the time. If I'm writing on what I call a "dark" day, I will probably write differently than if my mental state is great. It might even have something to do with the surroundings as I write and as I listen and edit. If I'm comfortable and not distracted, I might perceive the story one way, and perhaps a different way if my setting isn't too good.

In my opinion, this is something AI doesn't have to deal with, and it's why AI-written story will be mostly words and less emotion.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Even so, I'm not going to change it a second time. Precisely because of the lack of rhythm, it stands out. The eye stumbles over the sentence, as it were, which is another trick to make the reader pay attention. And whenever the reader pays attention, the story sticks in their mind. At the start of a new paragraph is a good point to demand their focus.

I'm very much a stream of consciousness writer, and what you see is pretty much first draft. I like to keep it raw - but most of my edit is taking great care over the cadence and cascade of the prose, the beat and the flow. I change words to get the right words in the right order, use alliteration judiciously (it can be very powerful, as you say), use repetition when I choose to, but find different words when I don't; change phrases on occasion; fiddle with sentences sometimes, but not often.

My reward is the number of comments about the flow of my prose - almost poetic, reads like poetry within the prose, so easy to read, that kind of thing. I'm pretty happy about that.

 

[StillStunned]

The one thing I'd suggest here is to consider striking the "careful" altogether. "As quiet as she could" already implies maximum care; "carefully" feels redundant.

I would also remove the "careful to be" and make it "she moved forward as quiet as she could." I could even pull a show-don't-tell-thing and write "she moved forward on her tip-toes" or something similar, or just change the verb to something stronger than move forward, like "she sneaked over," or "she skulked around..."

I get what you're both saying, but for me, "careful to be as quiet as she could" works best because it's a bit longer and slower. The rhythm is stretched out. "CAREful to be as QUIet as she COULD" makes me visualise her taking slow, careful steps, with a deep breath between each.

I would use, something like.
'She moved cautiously, the need for quiet so vital. Her hungry need need for loot, driving her perilous, yet necessitous search.'

I like it, but for this particular scene it's a bit much. Flower has just escaped from a dangerous street and is standing in a narrow passage. It's a gritty, down-to-earth setting where people are concerned mostly with little more than survival and subsistence. "Vital", "perilous" and "necessitous" feel out of place here.

I have discovered this recently as I've had Word read my stories back to me as an editing tool. Even going through the story four or five times, I change sentence order or change the words I'm using, mostly because I can hear and sense the mood of a particular place in a story better as a listener than I often can as a writer. I have not yet done a auditory edit session where I listened all the way through and have not changed something, and honestly, I'm not sure I could ever do that.

Yep, me too. I try to get it right before I use Read Aloud, because otherwise I'd be stopping and starting all the time. But even with the flatness of the AI voice, it still catches the odd sentence here and there that could be improved.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, everyone. I truly wish we could have more of these discussions in the AH. About word choice and sentence structure and paragraphs, and tricks to keep the reader engaged or to add depth to our writing.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I get what you're both saying, but for me, "careful to be as quiet as she could" works best because it's a bit longer and slower. The rhythm is stretched out. "CAREful to be as QUIet as she COULD" makes me visualise her taking slow, careful steps, with a deep breath between each.


I like it, but for this particular scene it's a bit much. Flower has just escaped from a dangerous street and is standing in a narrow passage. It's a gritty, down-to-earth setting where people are concerned mostly with little more than survival and subsistence. "Vital", "perilous" and "necessitous" feel out of place here.

Yep, me too. I try to get it right before I use Read Aloud, because otherwise I'd be stopping and starting all the time. But even with the flatness of the AI voice, it still catches the odd sentence here and there that could be improved.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, everyone. I truly wish we could have more of these discussions in the AH. About word choice and sentence structure and paragraphs, and tricks to keep the reader engaged or to add depth to our writing.

Alas, I am totally with you...
It's why I came to the AH...
A forum full of talented writers, who I hoped would be keen to share and discuss written works.
Unfortunately, it's never going to be that way...
Literotica appears, (At least to me) to be a huge competition. Everybody more worried about scores and views and comments.

For me, all of those things would come if what we wrote was better. Instead we squabble over ridiculous stuff. Yeah I know, I'm a serial squabbler... LOL... I understand the Irony of me complaining about (Me)...

I wish we as a group could have adult conversations about the art we have chosen to attempt...

Thanks for starting the conversation.

Cagivagurl

 

[StillStunned]

Here's bit from another WIP (set in the same City of Scum):

Scabby didn’t expect much from life. Never had. Never had any reason to, either, not since the accident. Couldn’t work on the riverboats anymore, and the gangs weren’t interested in a one-armed man. What use was he to them if he couldn’t fight or steal?

So Scabby roamed the City’s streets scavenging for food and hiding from the ghouls and the gangs. Life these days was just an endless cycle of hunger, fear, sudden hope and frequent disappointment.

The first paragraph I think reads like a defeatist talking to himself and shrugging his shoulders. The sentences might be a bit long, though.

The second one I think is better. I'm not entirely happy about repeating "Scabby" after the first paragraph, but you get "Scabby", "City", "streets" and "scavenging" all close together, and then "the ghouls and the gangs". The rhythm is a little off, perhaps, but I think the alliteration adds a punch.

The final sentence ends strongly, I feel: "sudden hope" is staccato, with a rising tone, and "frequent disappointment" brings it down in slow inevitability. You can almost picture Scabby, heart leaping with hope despite himself, only to come heavily back down to earth and be left feeling despondent.

Any thoughts? Any examples that other people would like to share with the class?

 

[FidelityBoss]

Just now I wrote a sentence:

"She" is Flower, a member of a gang in a dark sword & sorcery setting. Not that it really matters for this thread, it's just a bit of background.

Anyway, even as I was typing the sentence, I was rewriting it in my mind. I've mentioned a few times that I studied Middle English poetry, and I'm very fond of alliterative verse and the muscular rhythm that it brings to language.

I always try to make my writing as rhythmic as possible, because I think that it helps the reader. The beats of the sentence correspond to the words you want to highlight, so the reader automatically picks out the important bit.

But even without that, alliteration is a powerful tool in writing. You can use reinforce the meaning by making the reader notice the words more, and alliteration is an easy way to do that.

So about half a second after I wrote the sentence, I changed it to this:

The second half of the sentence is much stronger now. The first half ("Remembering that") feels out of rhythm. It would be much smoother if I wrote:

Outside alliterative poetry, this is about as smooth as the English language gets, in my humble-but-I-have-an-MA-in-this-crap-and-25-years'-experience-rewriting-other-people's-English opinion.

Even so, I'm not going to change it a second time. Precisely because of the lack of rhythm, it stands out. The eye stumbles over the sentence, as it were, which is another trick to make the reader pay attention. And whenever the reader pays attention, the story sticks in their mind. At the start of a new paragraph is a good point to demand their focus.

Of course there's a balance. You don't want the reader to be stumbling through the whole text. You want their eye to move forward with as little effort as possible, so the words flow from their screen into their imagination. Effort takes them out of the story, and if it happens too many times you'll lose them.

This is how I write. I consider every word of every sentence, to make my story as effortless to read as possible. This doesn't mean using infantile language, although I won't go out of my way to use fancy words if a simple word will do. It means I don't want my reader to have to focus on understanding the text, if they can instead be focusing on the story.

The more effort I put in, the less I demand from my readers. And seeing as there's little I enjoy doing more, I think that's an excellent deal.

Love this breakdown! Your attention to rhythm and alliteration really shows how much thought goes into crafting a sentence. It’s fascinating how tweaking even a few words can make such a difference in flow and impact. Your approach to making the text effortless for readers while keeping them engaged is spot on. Writing is definitely an art, and you’re clearly a master of it!

 

[Cagivagurl]

Here's bit from another WIP (set in the same City of Scum):

The first paragraph I think reads like a defeatist talking to himself and shrugging his shoulders. The sentences might be a bit long, though.

The second one I think is better. I'm not entirely happy about repeating "Scabby" after the first paragraph, but you get "Scabby", "City", "streets" and "scavenging" all close together, and then "the ghouls and the gangs". The rhythm is a little off, perhaps, but I think the alliteration adds a punch.

The final sentence ends strongly, I feel: "sudden hope" is staccato, with a rising tone, and "frequent disappointment" brings it down in slow inevitability. You can almost picture Scabby, heart leaping with hope despite himself, only to come heavily back down to earth and be left feeling despondent.

Any thoughts? Any examples that other people would like to share with the class?

My thoughts.... Why repeat Scabby????
Why not simply use "He" ???
It doesn't change the flow. We already know you're talking about Scabby....
How about...
So he roamed the City’s streets scavenging for food always hiding from the ghouls and the gangs. Life these days seemed like an endless cycle of hunger, fear, interspersed with bursts of sudden hope although mostly the cold bite of disappointment.

I know, I'm to wordy... LOL... I know already...

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

It's often difficult to take short stabs of text, and get an over all feel for a complete story.
I should have added in my previous post.
My suggestion was simply that. Not as an improvement, merely an alternative.

Cagivagurl

 

[StillStunned]

Love this breakdown! Your attention to rhythm and alliteration really shows how much thought goes into crafting a sentence. It’s fascinating how tweaking even a few words can make such a difference in flow and impact. Your approach to making the text effortless for readers while keeping them engaged is spot on. Writing is definitely an art, and you’re clearly a master of it!

Thank you! I don't claim to be a master, though I think I'm pretty good at it. The first step is probably to be aware of the whole issue: that the words you use influence how readers read your story, even at a level that they're not even aware of.

My thoughts.... Why repeat Scabby????
Why not simply use "He" ???
It doesn't change the flow. We already know you're talking about Scabby....

I know, and like I mentioned, I'm not entirely happy with it. But there's something pleasing about the alliteration, and the closeness in sound to "scavenging". I'll probably rewrite it.

How about...

So he roamed the City’s streets scavenging for food always hiding from the ghouls and the gangs. Life these days seemed like an endless cycle of hunger, fear, interspersed with bursts of sudden hope although mostly the cold bite of disappointment.

I know, I'm to wordy... LOL... I know already...

Cagivagurl

A bit too wordy. Although I might add tag "Mostly just disappointment, though" after the sentence, or something else to hammer the point home.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

I get what you're both saying, but for me, "careful to be as quiet as she could" works best because it's a bit longer and slower. The rhythm is stretched out. "CAREful to be as QUIet as she COULD" makes me visualise her taking slow, careful steps, with a deep breath between each.

No judgements here; we're just chiming in on how we would do it. I'm personally not really into that type of prose, so I always tend to write pulpy and fast rather than poetic. This is clearly your style, so if you like it, and it works for you, keep going!

The Scabby fragment is actually a better example. I don't really mind his name repeated. However, did you try putting the second sentence first, and then the first sentence after? I would try this, let me know if it sparks any ideas or why you don't like it.

Scabby roamed the City’s streets scavenging for food and hiding from the ghouls and the gangs. Life these days was just an endless cycle of hunger, fear, sudden hope and frequent disappointment.

Thus he didn’t expect much from life. Never had any reason to, either, not since the accident. Couldn’t work on the riverboats anymore, and the gangs weren’t interested in a one-armed man. What use was he to them if he couldn’t fight or steal?

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Here's bit from another WIP (set in the same City of Scum):

The first paragraph I think reads like a defeatist talking to himself and shrugging his shoulders. The sentences might be a bit long, though.

The second one I think is better. I'm not entirely happy about repeating "Scabby" after the first paragraph, but you get "Scabby", "City", "streets" and "scavenging" all close together, and then "the ghouls and the gangs". The rhythm is a little off, perhaps, but I think the alliteration adds a punch.

The final sentence ends strongly, I feel: "sudden hope" is staccato, with a rising tone, and "frequent disappointment" brings it down in slow inevitability. You can almost picture Scabby, heart leaping with hope despite himself, only to come heavily back down to earth and be left feeling despondent.

Any thoughts? Any examples that other people would like to share with the class?

I like the line. My only concerns are 'sudden hope' could be stronger and the word 'frequent' doesn't paint a dire enough picture to represent what I feel you're trying to elicit. Maybe something like:

So Scabby roamed the City’s streets scavenging for food and hiding from the ghouls and the gangs. Life these days was just an endless cycle of hunger and fear with sudden flashes of hope mired in too frequent disappointment.

Not perfect, or even better... My thoughts are the sudden hope should be more impactful. Flashes are immediate and grab your attention away from whatever the norm is, maybe even momentarily inspiring. Also, the disappointment should be more than 'frequent' and possibly, as @Cagivagurl implied, more physical; 'cold bite.' I used 'too frequent' to offer a feeling that it was excessive, beating him down and 'mired' to give a sense that he was stuck in it.

 

[StillStunned]

I like the line. My only concerns are 'sudden hope' could be stronger and the word 'frequent' doesn't paint a dire enough picture to represent what I feel you're trying to elicit. Maybe something like:

I like "sudden hope", but perhaps "inevitable disappointment" works better in the sentence. The successive syllables have a nice falling tone that works well after the rise of "sudden hope".

 

[StillStunned]

The Scabby fragment is actually a better example. I don't really mind his name repeated. However, did you try putting the second sentence first, and then the first sentence after? I would try this, let me know if it sparks any ideas or why you don't like it.

You know, this might just be a perfect solution!

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

You know, this might just be a perfect solution!

Me three. I'd keep 'inevitable disappointment,' too. It sums up what I was trying to express without being near as invasive.

 

[TheLobster]

Is this an opening sequence? If so, then the original version is vastly superior. Those first two sentences are immediately intriguing, and I’d probably try to weave the third one into the same rhythmic sequence by putting a full stop after “either”.

Once you have the reader’s attention, the second paragraph let’s you do a little more exposition. You did it well there, setting the mood for the gloomy story that (presumably) follows. But were you to start with it, you’d waste the gripping impact of that other paragraph.

 

[StillStunned]

Is this an opening sequence? If so, then the original version is vastly superior. Those first two sentences are immediately intriguing, and I’d probably try to weave the third one into the same rhythmic sequence by putting a full stop after “either”.

Once you have the reader’s attention, the second paragraph let’s you do a little more exposition. You did it well there, setting the mood for the gloomy story that (presumably) follows. But were you to start with it, you’d waste the gripping impact of that other paragraph.

... Dammit. Back to the drawing board.

 

[StillStunned]

Rather than my usual habit of tooting my own flute, I thought I'd add a few lines written by someone else:

Now through the grey fog bloomed a blur of red, as the Kargs set fire to the thatch of a house. Still they did not come up into the village, but waited at the lower end till the mist should lift and lay bare their loot and prey.
- "Warriors in the Mist", A Wizard of Earthsea, Ursula K. Le Guin

I might quibble that the first sentence would scan better without "grey", but how vivid is this: "bloomed a blur of red"? And "till the mist should lift and lay bare their loot and prey"?

I've loved the original Earthsea trilogy since I was a little Stunned, sitting by the fireplace with my sisters all winter as our dad read to us. And not just for the stories. I love the way UKLG uses a style that conveys the idea that they're ancient lays being retold, without descending into trite cliches but instead reads almost like poetry in prose form.

If you haven't read them yet, I recommend them. They're only short, but packed with depth and meaning. They get better with almost every reading.