What is the purpose of the Discussion Circle for the authors?

[daughter]

lets--

It is counterproductive to tell a novice her works suck. As guilty as I can be of missing the mark, I know better than to use that term. Let's ban that from discussions. Unfortunately, many novice or hobby writers don't know the differenence between evaluation and observation. When you participate in a discussion about a work, you get more leverage out of it when you make an observation and then explain, suggest, encourage. The combination is an evaluation. Observation alone is saying,"This is awful." Literary criticism and critique is not condemnation. It is evaluation. Criticism is what the schmuck says because he's incapable of articulating his views.

Of course, we're interested in what you have to say. We're also hoping you're listening. We've gone around the block with this and already covered your point. Did you read the whole thread or skimmed it and jumped in?

Ok so I'm new...Is it ok that I still have LOTS to say? So what's the LOTS?

Keep writing.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Mickie]

letsallgetlaid -- if I wanted a private discussion I would have conducted it with pm or email. Please, if anyone , new or otherwise, has anything to say, I'd like to hear it.

I don't think it's a bad thing to use a word like 'sucks' in discussion. I can say things like 'your grammar really sucks. get an editor.' I think that's what the entire thrust of the comments to Old Man said, in fact. My problem isn't words we use, or even style, but that people tend to cling to a single thought and not let it go. All right, the grammar needs fixing. The author agrees, so lets talk about another aspect of the story. THAT's where I think we fall short.

However, to do daughter credit with her comment about constructive criticism, it isn't right to post a single -- your story sucked so I couldn't read it. -- then cut out an not say why the story was so bad. It isn't worth a post on the discussion circle to say something like that without qualifying it.

How about if we add a few things to the 'discussion tips' thread? Things about general observations? Perhaps something to the tune of -- if you find a negative to comment about, then also add in a suggestion as to how to fix it.

As for where we fall short in clinging to a single aspect of a story and not looking elsewhere, it's up to me to try to find a way to suggest other things about the story without finding fault with the discussors. Right?

Mickie

 

[letsallgetlaid]

Great idea

I really like the idea of asking (or even requiring) that a positive suggestion for altering something be included. For me many times when I write something and someone points out a flaw, I respond "I know, ok so how do I fix it?" And they have no idea. That's really frustrating. "That is wrong" or poorly done. Should be accompanies with a "try this". If I already knew what I should have been doing then I would have done it. Make sense?

 

[daughter]

Hey, we work well together

Mickie--

I hear you. I took a class once and most of the students were non-English majors so it took some coaxing to get them to point out flaws. They were very self-conscious about hurting a writer's feelings. To help folks get in the mode of point out weaknesses, he suggested folks say something phrases such as:

"I really like 'X' because "Y'. What I'm having trouble with in this is "N'. Could you explain what you want 'N' to accomplish or say?"

"I like the concept here, but I think you could tweak this. How would doing 'A' affect 'B'?"

"Like what you're saying. However, 'D' is a pretty worn phrase. How would you say this in your own words?" How does 'E' sound to you?"

"Are you open to approaching this another way? Saying 'C' is an example. Of course, there are plenty of options. Just a suggestion."

Peace,

daughter

 

[Guest]

Hi, y'all. I haven't participated much here, because frankly it takes too much time away from my writing to dive in with the intensity that I would want. I love analyzing stories, but I've taken on a part time job, which is eating seriously into my writing time.

Still, I have a point to make. I hope that my non-participation doesn't prohibit me from being heard.

Daughter said that in a class she took the students were required to submit their best work, as polished as they could make it. I think that is what should be done here. What's the point of submitting something that isn't your best? It seems to me that if you submit something that you think is so-so, then when people point out weaknesses, you've already set up a safety net for yourself. ("Yeah, well, I told you it was only a first draft." Or, "I told you (a la Mickie's post somewhere else) I only wrote this for fun.") You have a ready-made shield to hide behind when the comments start flying.

Taking criticism is tough to do. I swear, every single time I ask for it, I think that this time I will be able to do so without my ego getting in the way. And every single fucking time, my ego sneaks in there without my noticing. In the back of my mind, I'm always thinking, "This is really good. They're not going to find much wrong with THIS one. Heh heh." Then, of course, they do, and I get the anger, the resentment, the disbelief, the whole gamut of emotions when someone has the "gaul" to tell me I've not written the epitome of stories.

But, by God, it's a great way to improve. But you can only improve if you are willing to really hear what people are saying. Sometimes it's not a matter of you being wrong, but a matter of you needing to make a slight change.

For example, I've often gone through a chain of thought like this: "Hmm. That person thought I didn't make it clear enough that his feelings were hurt. I thought I did. It's clear enough to me, but, hmmm. Maybe I can just tweak it just a little bit more, just in case there are other people that didn't catch it."

On the other hand, don't blithely roll over on every suggestion someone makes to you. Pick and choose. Don't assume because you're a beginning writer that you should take every single bit of advice. It is YOUR story. Make the decisions yourself.

All right. Lecture's over. Hope I made sense.

 

[Whispersecret]

Damn it. The above post was mine. *grumbles*

 

[daughter]

Hello, anonymous

Gurl--

You're funny. What, no time? And just who am I suppose to harass for private tutoring now?

Peace,

daughter

 

[Whispersecret]

I wish I could oblige, daughter. I really like pushing my opinions on people, especially when they ask for it, giving me the perfect excuse for exercising my skill at appearing superior. I especially like commenting on work that was written by an author with whom I wouldn't have to handle with kid gloves.

However, I'm determined to revamp a story I wrote and expand it into a novella. This determination is fueled by a desire to have something else ready when that editor in New York finally gets to my manuscript, realizes what a gem I am, and calls me to say, "Yes, by God, we want to publish your novel! Where do we send the advance check? And what else do you have for us? We want more more more."

 

[daughter]

fellow dreamer

WS--

It's all good. Ain't mad atcha.

Write on.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Lynn]

my 3.4 cents

I love to read stories. I enjoy it quite a bit. I enjoy writing as well (I enjoy doing even more). OK now that I have your interest...

I wrote this a few times and it crashed on posting so I will make this much briefer than the last two failed attempts.

I treat each story I read with respect for the author - whether well written or not. It is my task to correct lapses in stories that make me scratch my head and say - huh? It is not my job to criticize someones choice of story plots, however if a plot device doesn't work I will mention that. I think of each story I write as my child (right now as the children I do not have or can take care of, but non the less as my children). I want to know what they do right. I want to know what they do wrong. I don't throw them out here for you to ewww and ahhh over (I hate looking at pictures of other friends kids - they are never as cute as the parents think). But if they are grossly ugly I do want to know as well - but if it is that I put them in a hideous dress - then mind your own business.

Long story made longer, I read stories and discuss them for consitency, to see if it is true to itself and to see if it is spelled and is grammatically correct. I don't review stories for discussion on the basis of whether I will like the story of the content.

Just does it make sense, is it clear, if I was interested in the subject would I be aroused, amused, disgusted or any other appropriate reaction.

That is what I do. How about you?

 

[REDWAVE]

Serious dabbler

Well, as a serious dabbler, let me just say that I I don't mind someone telling me I suck, but it really hurts my feelings if someone says I suck badly. But seriously, I've been lucky so far, I guess-- I just got my first negative feedback recently, and it wasn't that bad. Everything else has been positive-- some constructive criticism from daughter, but I don't mind that at all.


To be honest, I originally got in the discussion circle to promote my story, but then I got caught up in the discussions, and by now I've given up on the story, pretty much, anyway. I'm looking for serious critique-- pointing out what's good (in the opinion of the reviewer) about the story, yes, but also (and more importantly) pointing out what's wrong. How I'll use the information I receive will depend on what I think of it. I'm not sure how to edit a story once it's been submitted, but I imagine I can find out. There is a typo in "My First Gangbang" I should fix.


Hi, daughter! Yes, you are very anal retentive, aren't you, you frenetic little Mane, you? You need to calm down and discover the Pare solution. (And if you haven't already, you really should read "Clans of the Alphane Moon," by Phillip K. Dick-- it's you, babe.)


Anyway, here's a little "war story" (in more ways than one) you folks will probably appreciate. My least successful story, "My Second Gangbang," has 6 votes-- 4 5's & 2 1's. (I know 'cause I tracked the individual votes as they came in.) The first 4 votes were all 5's. Then, when I came out against the war on WriterDom's Ramadan thread (on the general board), I suddenly got 2 1's-- obviously from someone(s) who didn't like my anti-war stance. (In fact, I think I know who it was, but I won't say here. PM me if you want to know.) So the rating on the story suddenly went from 5.00 to 3.67. But that doesn't bother me-- it's a small price to pay for speaking out against the war. A lot of anti-war protesters have been beaten, jailed, or even killed.



BTW, howda ya like my avatar?

 

[gypsykat]

new writer

Hi...I am new to this forum and in publishing my work on lit. I have always known I was a gifted reader, but until I took college writing, had no idea there was a writer hiding within. I found out that reading is the mirror image to writing. While reading is an easy pleasure for me, writing is very hard work. Not only is it important for writers to know punctuation and grammar, but syntax, plot, and the general flow of the story.

It is important to me, as I writer, to know where I need improvement. As an amature writer, when critiquing or reviewing my work, it helps to have both the problems or weak points brought to my attention, then suggestions on how to make it better. Saying it sucks is absolutely no help, and rather cruel. Saying it needs work, and then telling me in what areas, helps me develop as a writer. I want to use this forum to become a professional writer, which is my dream. I need constructive criticism in order for that dream to come true. I am so new, I am not sure how to do that, but am serious about learning how to do just that, even if it hurts!