What's my line?* (a mini lesson)

[Tzara]

No, you check it out, I'm working from memory, I think I remember what would pass for phrasal rhythm.

Which would still be a kind of form imposed on "free verse." My original point was that free verse is not randomly structured. It seems to me statistically unlikely that a poem where lines are roughly the same length is not using some kind of rule, however loosely applied, to end up with that result.

As for continuing to punctuation, that is the accepted practice. Pinski makes more sense, in that the reader should make that in context.

"Accepted" by whom? Most of what I've read from poets suggests they normally think of a line break as adding some kind of pause in the narrative. Some think of this as very short, others longer, but I think most poets recognize that some kind of hesitation occurs in most reading. This can be controlled to some degree by enjambment, but it still occurs.

Or perhaps I'm just, as I said, simplistic.

Re: Stresses, there runs in a line a main stress, some of the secondary stresses are options as to how it should be stressed.

SHE walks in beauty, like the night.
I see as the main stress, "in" and "the" unstressed. The ambiguity is She and Walks. Either way it works. It would be much to have them both stressed, but not that unlikely. A guess that entails another conversation as to what exactly is stress, another day.
Shakespeare has a lot of that, also.

Koch makes an interesting statement about meter, to the effect that it is overlaid on the natural rhythm of speech. This allows it to be less metronomic and more subtle, more given to nuance. Perhaps this is why we seem at odds on this.

Or, as I said, perhaps we simply read (hear) things differently.

 

[Angeline]

I tried once to have a conversation with Pat C. (the original Mr. Anti-Form) about why, if he was following no formal elements at all in his poems, the lines all seemed to break at approximately the same length. My idea was that he was probably unconsciously sounding the stresses in the lines, or unconsciously counting syllables, or some such organizational thing.

He denied it, of course, though I still think he was.

That was a very interesting passage, Ms. A. Did you quote the book or simply paraphrase it?

I won't vote, because while I think a lot about breaks and stresses, I'm not sure I do any one thing consistently. The most consistent thing I do is break in places where I want a slight pause in the voicing of the poem. That's probably simplistic, and I know other poets who don't do it at all, but I often find their poems hard to read as a result, even when I like the poem.

It is interesting, isn't it? I paraphrased it because when I explain things in my own words I understand them better myself (but the categories are his). But I'd recommend the book highly as it is pretty accessible in terms of being able to easily understand what's he's (Unterbach's) getting at. And I think what he's getting at is you can do whatever you want in your initial draft but then you have many options before you--and you can use certain techniques for certain effects. And yes the book is mainly about free verse poem writing so it does turn on its head the popular notion that "form" and "free verse" means "rules" versus "no rules."

I've no doubt my good friend PatC would disagree vigorously.

 

[twelveoone]

Which would still be a kind of form imposed on "free verse." My original point was that free verse is not randomly structured. It seems to me statistically unlikely that a poem where lines are roughly the same length is not using some kind of rule, however loosely applied, to end up with that result.
"Accepted" by whom? Most of what I've read from poets suggests they normally think of a line break as adding some kind of pause in the narrative. Some think of this as very short, others longer, but I think most poets recognize that some kind of hesitation occurs in most reading. This can be controlled to some degree by enjambment, but it still occurs.

Or perhaps I'm just, as I said, simplistic.
Koch makes an interesting statement about meter, to the effect that it is overlaid on the natural rhythm of speech. This allows it to be less metronomic and more subtle, more given to nuance. Perhaps this is why we seem at odds on this.

Or, as I said, perhaps we simply read (hear) things differently.

metre, does not exist as an aural entity. it is a grid, either applied during composition, or after for analysis.
point i'm trying to make is as the "meaning" of a word shifts on a continuous basis, so does the stress. it is not even fixed (nor should it be) n the same reader. if you repeat the same phrase three times, the stress on the words shifts. it is just another pattern, a pattern that you run another pattern against.
free verse is a rather stupid term. verse being a term that implies a light rhymey thing that is not quite poetry. whatever distinction is in whoever's mind.
so i prefer
vers libre
included in that is variable foot, must be a nightmare for you, Tzara, to read Whitman. It is for me but for a different reason.
Here is a thought experiment suppose you run up against that is composed as alliterative verse, what happens to the other words, that would be normally stressed, do they become unstressed?
Here is another thought experiment for you Tzara, when they imported this metric system to England, why did they do it? When? About the same time what was happening to the language? What is happening to the language now?
Another question, rhetorical, right to the heart of the matter who developed this so-called metric system? And on what? The dead upon the dead.

 

[twelveoone]

I tried once to have a conversation with Pat C. (the original Mr. Anti-Form) about why, if he was following no formal elements at all in his poems, the lines all seemed to break at approximately the same length. My idea was that he was probably unconsciously sounding the stresses in the lines, or unconsciously counting syllables, or some such organizational thing.

He denied it, of course, though I still think he was.
/QUOTE]
Back on topic: Cold reading, you can check. Re: Mr.C
the end of Mr. Carrington's line would have been monosyllabic noun, end of a syntactical unit, a word of relative importance and would be influenced by the rest of the line lengths. There is nothing special about what I just said, it is common, and effective way of writing, and tendds to sound musical. Pat's would probably have a greater incidence of it. He probably would have a greater incidence of a preposition within two words of the end, than average. Because of his compositional technique and adherence to line length, he probably made it easy for you to hear 4 or 5 beats per line. I don't think he followed it, he composed by ear. He would probably run an interference pattern across the poem, largely with phrases, and secondarily with similar sentence structure, I don't remember him deviating from sentence length. If he did, he would probably duplicate elsewhere. Again a cold reading from memory.
Now I know, what I said in an earlier post sounds a little radical.
re: mr. Koch
Alabama
Alabama

Alabama?

 

[twelveoone]

And yes the book is mainly about free verse poem writing so it does turn on its head the popular notion that "form" and "free verse" means "rules" versus "no rules."

I've no doubt my good friend PatC would disagree vigorously.

No rules, tactics of organization of patterns.

 

[Paasha]

I'm literally wild since I tend to do end stop lines and annotate them, depending on the poem I suppose.

 

[Angeline]

No rules, tactics of organization of patterns.

Rules is so much easier to say.

I'm literally wild since I tend to do end stop lines and annotate them, depending on the poem I suppose.

Just keep doing what you're doing. It's a pleasure to read you (again).

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I see confusion is winning on this poll! Did I know you before Paasha or were you before my time?

 

[The_Fool]

I just show up and look stupid. It's what I do best.

 

[Angeline]

I just show up and look stupid. It's what I do best.

I you because you are consistent.

 

[vrosej10]

No rules, tactics of organization of patterns.

Agreed. Free verse appears to have no rules but in reality is represents a pattern of rules that emerges within each new text. Each free verse poem contains its own individual form. The trick is to find what exactly that is.

 

[The_Fool]

I you because you are consistent.

Will always you. Consistent in that at least.

 

[champagne1982]

I was reading through this thread once more and I realized that Williams used a significant number of non-words to end his lines. (a, the, of...) I was always of the opinion that these are weak end words and do nothing towards making me want to continue to the next line and finish the poem. It's still my opinion and is probably why I found both examples tedious and hard to get through even though the bulk of the poem is beautiful.

Just me or is it the poet's fault that they chose their pointers so poorly (again.. just my opinion)?

 

[twelveoone]

I was reading through this thread once more and I realized that Williams used a significant number of non-words to end his lines. (a, the, of...) I was always of the opinion that these are weak end words and do nothing towards making me want to continue to the next line and finish the poem. It's still my opinion and is probably why I found both examples tedious and hard to get through even though the bulk of the poem is beautiful.

Just me or is it the poet's fault that they chose their pointers so poorly (again.. just my opinion)?

WCW?
April


If you had come away with me
into another state
we had been quiet together.
But there the sun coming up
out of the nothing beyond the lake was
too low in the sky,
there was too great a pushing
against him,
too much of sumac buds, pink
in the head
with the clear gum upon them,
too many opening hearts of lilac leaves,
too many, too many swollen
limp poplar tassels on the
bare branches!
It was too strong in the air.
I had no rest against that
springtime!
The pounding of the hoofs on the
raw sods
stayed with me half through the night.
I awoke smiling but tired.


This is a tactic fridayam uses also. Generally not regarded as good enjambment. Consider what it does. What kind of a stop is this?
....on the
bare branches!

I read it as
Unstressed, unsressed, slight pause
stress stress full emphatic stop.

He wants your attention on bare.
I'm not positive about WCW, but fridayam told me he uses it as a tipping device. So with two unstressed and a pause it gives an added emphasis to the next word. IF you follow the two step rule of scansion you have problems with it.
Williams insisted on the rhythm of the language. Williams I feel was right.

 

[butters]

WCW?
April


If you had come away with me
into another state
we had been quiet together.
But there the sun coming up
out of the nothing beyond the lake was
too low in the sky,
there was too great a pushing
against him,
too much of sumac buds, pink
in the head
with the clear gum upon them,
too many opening hearts of lilac leaves,
too many, too many swollen
limp poplar tassels on the
bare branches!
It was too strong in the air.
I had no rest against that
springtime!
The pounding of the hoofs on the
raw sods
stayed with me half through the night.
I awoke smiling but tired.


This is a tactic fridayam uses also. Generally not regarded as good enjambment. Consider what it does. What kind of a stop is this?
....on the
bare branches!

I read it as
Unstressed, unsressed, slight pause
stress stress full emphatic stop.

He wants your attention on bare.
I'm not positive about WCW, but fridayam told me he uses it as a tipping device. So with two unstressed and a pause it gives an added emphasis to the next word. IF you follow the two step rule of scansion you have problems with it.
Williams insisted on the rhythm of the language. Williams I feel was right.

ditto


ok, depending on the poet... but if you already know they're pretty good, then using these sort of 'non-words' (?) as line-ends isn't a weakness but there for a reason. i agree with your reasoning. it's all to do with emphasis and where it's being directed. and sometimes, too, it's about the driving forward of the idea onto the next line by manipulation of sound, including the use of sound's absence.

 

[champagne1982]

ditto


ok, depending on the poet... but if you already know they're pretty good, then using these sort of 'non-words' (?) as line-ends isn't a weakness but there for a reason. i agree with your reasoning. it's all to do with emphasis and where it's being directed. and sometimes, too, it's about the driving forward of the idea onto the next line by manipulation of sound, including the use of sound's absence.

Ok. I see what you're saying about the sonic manipulation of these poems but who's to say that you'd know that the poet was already pretty good if you were confronted with this style from the start of your experience with their poetry? I suppose I would need to read them in spite of my aversion/bias to their word choice and let someone tell me that they were good; since I'd struggle from the very beginning.

I'll bet, if we took away the poet's original line breaks and asked the denizens here to break it their way, we would find that even well-read and strong poets are prone to avoiding end words that are prepositions and articles. Would the poem be better or worse? I'm convinced it would just be different.

An interesting exercise, nu?

 

[twelveoone]

Ok. I see what you're saying about the sonic manipulation of these poems but who's to say that you'd know that the poet was already pretty good if you were confronted with this style from the start of your experience with their poetry? I suppose I would need to read them in spite of my aversion/bias to their word choice and let someone tell me that they were good; since I'd struggle from the very beginning.

I'll bet, if we took away the poet's original line breaks and asked the denizens here to break it their way, we would find that even well-read and strong poets are prone to avoiding end words that are prepositions and articles. Would the poem be better or worse? I'm convinced it would just be different.

An interesting exercise, nu?

I had complained about getting the voice of fridayam It's always worth taking a second look. Ange has been working on me with Wallace Stevens. That worked. Billy Collins, not yet.

 

[greenmountaineer]

To be honest, this kind of enjambment always confused me. I've even gone so far as to look for discussions about it on the web and was never successful until twelveoone's explanation, which gives me a new perspective.

I'm still getting used to it, but that may be because of the way I've been conditioned to read a line nearing its end.

I believe the Williams' poem works well because of the double emphasis that immediately follows in the next lines with, as tweleoone noted, the emphatic stop. Is the assumption then that even greater emphasis is achieved by the added contrast of a preposition or article preceding them? I'm still trying to hear that subtle difference, and it still feels a little like the poetic equivalent of a dangling participle in prose, but thanks for the lesson.

 

[twelveoone]

Ok. I see what you're saying about the sonic manipulation of these poems but who's to say that you'd know that the poet was already pretty good if you were confronted with this style from the start of your experience with their poetry? I suppose I would need to read them in spite of my aversion/bias to their word choice and let someone tell me that they were good; since I'd struggle from the very beginning.

I'll bet, if we took away the poet's original line breaks and asked the denizens here to break it their way, we would find that even well-read and strong poets are prone to avoiding end words that are prepositions and articles. Would the poem be better or worse? I'm convinced it would just be different.

An interesting exercise, nu?

No, bad choice of words. You see, because sometimes it is pointed out. (The historical role of the critic)

Yes, mostly for good reason, i.e. The beginning of the Waste Land could very easily be considered bad enjambment, bad form, and really not true rhyme. Eliot played a very complex game, and he won. Ten years earlier it would have sunk like a stone.

Yes that would be interesting.

 

[twelveoone]

To be honest, this kind of enjambment always confused me. I've even gone so far as to look for discussions about it on the web and was never successful until twelveoone's explanation, which gives me a new perspective.

I'm still getting used to it, but that may be because of the way I've been conditioned to read a line nearing its end.

I believe the Williams' poem works well because of the double emphasis that immediately follows in the next lines with, as tweleoone noted, the emphatic stop. Is the assumption then that even greater emphasis is achieved by the added contrast of a preposition or article preceding them? I'm still trying to hear that subtle difference, and it still feels a little like the poetic equivalent of a dangling participle in prose, but thanks for the lesson.

My apologies, I had bolded to show where, WCW does these things.
....on the
bare branches!

I read it as
Unstressed, unsressed, slight pause
stress stress full emphatic stop.

I don't know what the intended variance of stress Williams intended between bare and branches, I read them as being close, on the almost never would be stressed, very unlikely reading if they were.

Here is an interesting book if you want to pursue this further.

Here is something else, you might find more to your liking

Also this for amusement

 

[greenmountaineer]

.....................

http://pennreview.com/author/joseph-s-salemi/http://pennreview.com/author/joseph-s-salemi/Also this for amusement

I don't know who Joseph S. Salemi is, but he sure got me thinking about some things differently. I'm about half-way through the listed posts and am looking forward to reading the rest.

I have my suspicion's about his identity, but I don't the suspect would ever cop to it.

 

[bronzeage]

No rules, tactics of organization of patterns.

I subscribe to the Heisenberg Uncertainly Principle of Poetic Form, which states, "Any attempt to describe any writing as "not a poem" will become the next irregular form of poetry, expressed as Pf= n(n-1)," where n is the number of poets who think their work is just as good as that poem they read in this month's New Yorker Magazine.

 

[serpentwrap]

Make that n(n-1)/3 and the one-third error equation will hold universally true of all poets... Brilliant and true.

 

[twelveoone]

Make that n(n-1)/3 and the one-third error equation will hold universally true of all poets... Brilliant and true.

off point question?
I tried a comment on one of yours. Is something turned off?

 

[twelveoone]

I don't know who Joseph S. Salemi is, but he sure got me thinking about some things differently. I'm about half-way through the listed posts and am looking forward to reading the rest.

I have my suspicion's about his identity, but I don't the suspect would ever cop to it.

Joseph S. Salemi, as far as I know is Joseph S. Salemi. A critic of some of the neoformalists worst tendencies. Writes in the I think his Snow white poem is still on expansive poetry online.
I just thought you might get a kick out of him.