What's wrong with rhyme?

[pelegrino]

only the paired 'ander's here are perfectly rhymed, the sounds before don't - not in the way I speak them in english that is. And i think there, once again as 12 has pointed out before, regional accent can throw a dirty great spanner into the mix.


this is a perfect example of what i just said. maybe it is to some ears, depending on where you come from - to me, as an english speaking Londoner, plunder and meander are poles apart, their only similarities being the end 'nder'. To explain how i hear those, the 'u' is spoken the same as in 'under' and also sounds like the FIRST 'on' in Londoner - so Lun-don-er. And it's pretty normal to hear Lavender pronounced as 'lavander'. honestly, even if i mostly don't. The MOST heard sound where i live (more east-end) would be Lav-Vin-da

accents, accents, accents. something to take into account.

Thanks for commenting on my comments, Butters. Have you taken into account my definition of the rhyme as a sonic phenomenon that occurs on the last foot of a line and what is important for it is how it sounds on the stressed vowel of that foot and on whatever follows? If you do take this into account, what precedes that stressed vowel has no sonic effect whatsoever on the rhyme. "ander" is stressed, we agree, and rhymes with "ander" and if those two words are preceded by "me" or "alex" or a single "b" as in the word "bander" has no sonic effect at all on the desired result.
Now, I pronounce the word "plunder" near as "plander" and the word "under" near as "ander", and I don’t care if I sound like a Londoner, East ender or otherwise, do you see anything wrong with my accent? I think I pronounce the word "Londoner" better than some Londoners do.
Anyway, I don’t think we will agree totally ever on this subject. We all seem to have some ideas fixed on the technicalities of the rhyme. And how English speaking people define it is by nature different to the definition of a southern European, only I do wish that definitions take into account other definitions.
Now that is all technical. The main point of interest in this thread for me remains if there is anything wrong with rhyme itself in poetry, and I answer "No". Others may find it restrictive or monotonous, but if you can do it and you are happy with it then do it!

 

[oggbashan]

I like rhyme, but what is a rhyme depends on current pronunciation.

Some of the rhymes used by Shakespeare no longer rhyme. Chaucer has to be read as it was written to preserve the rhyme.

Years ago we had foreign students staying with us to practise their English. They visited a school in Herne Bay in Kent. We told them that the town was called 'Herne Bay', but they found the local school's students called it "Earn Boy".

 

[UnderYourSpell]

to answer this original post:

some see it as old-fashioned, some as a tool that's employed badly in too many cases - enough to spoil the meat of a write. rhyme for rhyme's sake, in other words.

i've nothing against rhyme when used well and with purpose. there's room for all manner of poetry where i'm concerned. if the poem is better suited to a non-rhymed scheme, then it's not great forcing it into a rhymed piece just for the sake of it. A poem can lose its integrity this way, imo. My personal preferences run to more subtle rhyming - or sound links - that run throughout the body of a piece rather than happen at the end of lines as decided by certain forms.

Where there's enough skill, end rhymes won't jar - will disappear beneath the overlying sounds, visuals, tangents, unless required to stand out for another reason. They're not just there for rhyme's sake but connect things, uphold stuff. And, when people are skilled enough, forms/end-rhymes can be a thing of beauty that allow a piece to fly rather than constrain. 99.9% of the time, this isn't achieved, and so a certain snobbery has built around the whole form/rhyme thing.

The bit that leaps out at me in this answer is the 'forced rhyme', the ones that make me cringe! I'm not sure if it was Tess or Anna that coined the phrase 'Yoda speak' and IMO if you have to do that in order to 'make' it rhyme please don't bother. I would rather scrap a poem altogether if I can't make it flow seamlessly. The worst offenders are often the writers of 'dirty ditties' full of 'cock and thrust' which to my amazement get rave revues. I've written my own share of dirty ditties but usually for amusement value, never in anyway trying to call them erotic and the rhymes still weren't forced!

 

[butters]

The bit that leaps out at me in this answer is the 'forced rhyme', the ones that make me cringe! I'm not sure if it was Tess or Anna that coined the phrase 'Yoda speak' and IMO if you have to do that in order to 'make' it rhyme please don't bother. I would rather scrap a poem altogether if I can't make it flow seamlessly. The worst offenders are often the writers of 'dirty ditties' full of 'cock and thrust' which to my amazement get rave revues. I've written my own share of dirty ditties but usually for amusement value, never in anyway trying to call them erotic and the rhymes still weren't forced!

yeah, we're singing from the same sheet, annie

 

[butters]

Thanks for commenting on my comments, Butters. Have you taken into account my definition of the rhyme as a sonic phenomenon that occurs on the last foot of a line and what is important for it is how it sounds on the stressed vowel of that foot and on whatever follows? If you do take this into account, what precedes that stressed vowel has no sonic effect whatsoever on the rhyme. "ander" is stressed, we agree, and rhymes with "ander" and if those two words are preceded by "me" or "alex" or a single "b" as in the word "bander" has no sonic effect at all on the desired result.

I'm uncertain from your phrasing, but do you take issue with me commenting on your comment? I thought this was a discussion and so saw no harm in doing so. However, you are right that i didn't read your original wording as carefully as i might

Now, I pronounce the word "plunder" near as "plander" and the word "under" near as "ander", and I don’t care if I sound like a Londoner, East ender or otherwise, do you see anything wrong with my accent? I think I pronounce the word "Londoner" better than some Londoners do.

I see nothing wrong with your accent, but your statement that these rhyme if we're to apply it to all ears. I'm all for accents. I love diversity!

 

[SteelPoint]

Stick to your guns and
Flick out your puns:
Metre and rhyme get
Sweeter with time...

 

[Angeline]

I'm just here to say I like rhyme some of the time. Also, I came in to give The Mutt a big snoofy hug.

 

[Remec]

I see nothing wrong with your accent, but your statement that these rhyme if we're to apply it to all ears. I'm all for accents. I love diversity!

Maybe it's a touch of Henry Higgins in me, but the examples shown ('plunder' and words ending with 'ander') don't rhyme in the least, to me. I have a hard time even thinking of an accent in which they would.

I would count (well, my ear would) 'lavender' as a close enough near rhyme to not be uncomfortable. I think it's because I heard the same sound in the 'a's from both words. The understressed 'en' in 'lavender' does throw the scansion off slightly, but it's something that can be compensated for when speaking through breathing and drawing out the sound of the 'a'.

 

[champagne1982]

A Sestina is another thing altogether, it's form yes but it doesn't rhyme. The only reason I find it difficult is I keep losing my place.

You're wrong, the sestina doesn't NEED to rhyme, but it may.
The same word can be used for all six sentences, but can become tedious when you read it 42 times, that would require a LOT of skill. But getting back to rhyme, I'm a rhymer. I enjoy making a poem work when I have a limited number of words to choose from to coherently inform my audience of setting, characters and theme and find doing so a compelling exercise. We need a formula poem challenge again, but not one with complicated rhythms please. Pose it, oh muttski and they will (come?)... to write!

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Maybe it's a touch of Henry Higgins in me, but the examples shown ('plunder' and words ending with 'ander') don't rhyme in the least, to me. I have a hard time even thinking of an accent in which they would.

I would count (well, my ear would) 'lavender' as a close enough near rhyme to not be uncomfortable. I think it's because I heard the same sound in the 'a's from both words. The understressed 'en' in 'lavender' does throw the scansion off slightly, but it's something that can be compensated for when speaking through breathing and drawing out the sound of the 'a'.

'enry 'iggins plsssssssssssssss

You're wrong, the sestina doesn't NEED to rhyme, but it may.
The same word can be used for all six sentences, but can become tedious when you read it 42 times, that would require a LOT of skill. But getting back to rhyme, I'm a rhymer. I enjoy making a poem work when I have a limited number of words to choose from to coherently inform my audience of setting, characters and theme and find doing so a compelling exercise. We need a formula poem challenge again, but not one with complicated rhythms please. Pose it, oh muttski and they will (come?)... to write!

If anyone is mad enough to rhyme a Sestina they need their head examining, and as you say having the same rhyme over and over again in one poem is very tedious!

 

[pelegrino]

I'm uncertain from your phrasing, but do you take issue with me commenting on your comment? I thought this was a discussion and so saw no harm in doing so. However, you are right that i didn't read your original wording as carefully as i might


I see nothing wrong with your accent, but your statement that these rhyme if we're to apply it to all ears. I'm all for accents. I love diversity!

Oh no, please don’t misunderstand me, I consider your comments on my opinions very valuable and your contribution to this discussion also valuable and enlightening, especially as we seem to have different opinions.
I may add that, as a person, you are to me one of the gentlest that I come across on the forums in general.
Now, on your counterstatement of applying those two words to different ears, I accept your point in the way you put it, but still I am left with a problem which I cannot solve either by your opinion or my ears, I explain:
For the words "under" and "plunder" I only have two clear cut options. Either "ander" and "plander", or "ounder" and "plounder". The first seems to me to have a sound nearer to current use, whereas the second would have more credibility to the sound implied by the spelling of the two words. Is there an in-between option? And if there is, should I bother myself to take it into account also when I'm coining a rhyme? Well, I do take it, but what would you say to these problematic uses of some letters and their sounds?
I am a little sorry, batters, and also a little confused, as I did not make up those sounds or those spellings. I just found them there in the English language and I am trying to use the to the best of my ability, but I do think it strange (not necessarily bad) that in English the letter "u" has two distinct sounds, I don’t think it happens in any other European language. As for example in "nut", "number" and "Friar TucK" as opposed to "Zulu", or even a third in between option as in the word "commune" and maybe a forth variation as in "Jethro Tull" or "Yul Brynner". Is it supposed to be an "a", "ou", a French Ygreek sound, or whatever?
I think, you would agree with me that "Friar Tuck" does not rhyme with "Zulu" sonically when you hear English people pronouncing them. What is then the definite sound of the bleeding letter "u"?
Maybe my statement does not make much sense if applied to different ears, but I have to start from somewhere.
Take a look, if you want, in a google translating page where you can hear the words spoken by professionally trained native speakers in various languages. I submit links for the four words used in my silly verse above, but you can also check all other words that I used in this post. And please remember that rhyme remains to me a valid sonic event from the stressed vowel of the last foot in a line and onwards; what precedes that is not part of the sonic event itself.
Best regards.

http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/Plunder
http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/Alexander
http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/meander
http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/lavender

 

[butters]

Oh no, please don’t misunderstand me, I consider your comments on my opinions very valuable and your contribution to this discussion also valuable and enlightening, especially as we seem to have different opinions.
I may add that, as a person, you are to me one of the gentlest that I come across on the forums in general.

thankyou

Now, on your counterstatement of applying those two words to different ears, I accept your point in the way you put it, but still I am left with a problem which I cannot solve either by your opinion or my ears, I explain:
For the words "under" and "plunder" I only have two clear cut options. Either "ander" and "plander", or "ounder" and "plounder". The first seems to me to have a sound nearer to current use, whereas the second would have more credibility to the sound implied by the spelling of the two words. Is there an in-between option?

i listened to the spoken 'plunder' and would first say it's not an especially clear recording and might be a little misleading, particularly to anyone whose mother tongue isn't english. The third option, and this is genuinely how it's generally spoken, is to pronounce the 'un' sound as you would when speaking the word SUN. May i ask what your first language is? I'm not mocking or deriding, just attempting to get to the root of this.

And if there is, should I bother myself to take it into account also when I'm coining a rhyme? Well, I do take it, but what would you say to these problematic uses of some letters and their sounds?
I am a little sorry, batters, and also a little confused, as I did not make up those sounds or those spellings. I just found them there in the English language and I am trying to use the to the best of my ability, but I do think it strange (not necessarily bad) that in English the letter "u" has two distinct sounds, I don’t think it happens in any other European language. As for example in "nut", "number" and "Friar TucK" as opposed to "Zulu", or even a third in between option as in the word "commune" and maybe a forth variation as in "Jethro Tull" or "Yul Brynner". Is it supposed to be an "a", "ou", a French Ygreek sound, or whatever?
I think, you would agree with me that "Friar Tuck" does not rhyme with "Zulu" sonically when you hear English people pronouncing them. What is then the definite sound of the bleeding letter "u"?

Take it into account but worry more about the content of your piece - near-rhymes isually work well enough, and once you've got the meat then you can worry about the pastry.

re the letter U. hard sound like YOU -so the predominant sound is OO, as in Zulu (Zooloo) and Yul (Yool), soft sound 'u' is like the sound found in suck and fuck and luck (also Tuck).

Maybe my statement does not make much sense if applied to different ears, but I have to start from somewhere.
Take a look, if you want, in a google translating page where you can hear the words spoken by professionally trained native speakers in various languages. I submit links for the four words used in my silly verse above, but you can also check all other words that I used in this post. And please remember that rhyme remains to me a valid sonic event from the stressed vowel of the last foot in a line and onwards; what precedes that is not part of the sonic event itself.
Best regards.

http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/Plunder
http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/Alexander
http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/meander
http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/lavender

we all have to start from somewhere, and my ability with other languages is dire.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Wonders if wonder (which rhymes with plunder) also does so to the American ear?

 

[Maria2394]

Wonders if wonder (which rhymes with plunder) also does so to the American ear?

To my ears, it does indeed rhyme

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Oh no, please don’t misunderstand me, I consider your comments on my opinions very valuable and your contribution to this discussion also valuable and enlightening, especially as we seem to have different opinions.
I may add that, as a person, you are to me one of the gentlest that I come across on the forums in general.
Now, on your counterstatement of applying those two words to different ears, I accept your point in the way you put it, but still I am left with a problem which I cannot solve either by your opinion or my ears, I explain:
For the words "under" and "plunder" I only have two clear cut options. Either "ander" and "plander", or "ounder" and "plounder". The first seems to me to have a sound nearer to current use, whereas the second would have more credibility to the sound implied by the spelling of the two words. Is there an in-between option? And if there is, should I bother myself to take it into account also when I'm coining a rhyme? Well, I do take it, but what would you say to these problematic uses of some letters and their sounds?
I am a little sorry, batters, and also a little confused, as I did not make up those sounds or those spellings. I just found them there in the English language and I am trying to use the to the best of my ability, but I do think it strange (not necessarily bad) that in English the letter "u" has two distinct sounds, I don’t think it happens in any other European language. As for example in "nut", "number" and "Friar TucK" as opposed to "Zulu", or even a third in between option as in the word "commune" and maybe a forth variation as in "Jethro Tull" or "Yul Brynner". Is it supposed to be an "a", "ou", a French Ygreek sound, or whatever?
I think, you would agree with me that "Friar Tuck" does not rhyme with "Zulu" sonically when you hear English people pronouncing them. What is then the definite sound of the bleeding letter "u"?
Maybe my statement does not make much sense if applied to different ears, but I have to start from somewhere.
Take a look, if you want, in a google translating page where you can hear the words spoken by professionally trained native speakers in various languages. I submit links for the four words used in my silly verse above, but you can also check all other words that I used in this post. And please remember that rhyme remains to me a valid sonic event from the stressed vowel of the last foot in a line and onwards; what precedes that is not part of the sonic event itself.
Best regards.

http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/Plunder
http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/Alexander
http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/meander
http://translate.google.com/#en/fr/lavender

lols @ batters ........ sorry I'll get my coat!

 

[pelegrino]

lols @ batters ........ sorry I'll get my coat!

I don't understand UYS, you laugh out loudly at Butters, quoting me, while you are getting your coat! What can it mean?
It must be a problem of co-ordination, I suppose.

 

[champagne1982]

I don't understand UYS, you laugh out loudly at Butters, quoting me, while you are getting your coat! What can it mean?
It must be a problem of co-ordination, I suppose.

You misunderstand I think, pelegrino. I believe the giggle occurs from your swapping out the "u" in butters with an a; as in the following:

<snip> I may add that, as a person, you are to me one of the gentlest that I come across on the forums in general.
<snip> this being said, I find it ironic when you name ms. butters "batters".
I am a little sorry, batters, and also a little confused<snip>

this is a small source of amusement for me as well... Not so much that I "lol" but I did titter.

 

[pelegrino]

thankyou


i listened to the spoken 'plunder' and would first say it's not an especially clear recording and might be a little misleading, particularly to anyone whose mother tongue isn't english. The third option, and this is genuinely how it's generally spoken, is to pronounce the 'un' sound as you would when speaking the word SUN. May i ask what your first language is? I'm not mocking or deriding, just attempting to get to the root of this.


Take it into account but worry more about the content of your piece - near-rhymes isually work well enough, and once you've got the meat then you can worry about the pastry.

re the letter U. hard sound like YOU -so the predominant sound is OO, as in Zulu (Zooloo) and Yul (Yool), soft sound 'u' is like the sound found in suck and fuck and luck (also Tuck).


we all have to start from somewhere, and my ability with other languages is dire.

I think there is nothing wrong with the quality of the recording and nothing misleading about the speaker's pronunciation of the words. I've heard much worse.
My mother tongue is Greek and frankly I don't think you could get to the root of it at present. I am not mocking either.
I've got my meat already (how can you assume otherwise?) but here we are talking about the pastry, so your remark is not apt to the subject, and we don't discuss my meat but the technicalities of rhyme, please, Butters, stick to the point. And what are "near rhymes"?
Should I rhyme "sugar" with "vulgar", is that near enough? Oh, but that "l" in "vulgar" makes a monkey of a rhyme. And why should I go for near when I can go for spot on?
On the subject of rhyme as a stressed sonic event I feel that I am not at all understood. I think that most people take the word as written and not as stressed and sounded. Remec above feels comfortable with "lavender" as a near rhyme. Be that as it may, I think he fails to understand that the words "plunder", "meander" and "Alexander" have the stress in the penultimate syllable whereas "lavender" is stressed in the third syllable from the end. To me that spoils the whole sonic effect and in phonetic languages such as I have spoken before of, such rhymes would be considered as clumsy or totally failed. Why not in English then? Sonic effects have no nationality.
I hope you don’t take my style as aggressive, it's not meant to be, I'm just eager to be understood.

 

[champagne1982]

plough and slough are "sight rhymes"

sugar and eager are (to me) "near rhymes"

plunder and under are "perfect rhymes"

I think, anyway.

 

[pelegrino]

You misunderstand I think, pelegrino. I believe the giggle occurs from your swapping out the "u" in butters with an a; as in the following: this is a small source of amusement for me as well... Not so much that I "lol" but I did titter.

Well, of course I don't mind making people titter with my foolishness, but there you have it with "U" and "A" sounds! From now on I will refer to her as "Boutters"

 

[champagne1982]

Well, of course I don't mind making people titter with my foolishness, but there you have it with "U" and "A" sounds! From now on I will refer to her as "Boutters"

it wasn't the vowel sounds at all but the meaning(s) of the word batters that got me in my amuseditines...

 

[pelegrino]

I think, I again created (unwillingly) so much poetic meaning with all these allusions tonight! I hope you all forgive me.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I don't understand UYS, you laugh out loudly at Butters, quoting me, while you are getting your coat! What can it mean?
It must be a problem of co-ordination, I suppose.

I was lolling at you calling Butters Batters which I found amusing because she used to be called Chip Butty and in England Fish and Chips is our sort of national dish with the fish being coated in batter. It's infantile humour which if it were used by a 3rd rate comedian would have him booed off the stage and having to get his coat to leave.
Oh and sugar doesn't rhyme with vulgar, although I suppose it could be a near rhyme. Sugar is pronounced Shoogar as near as I can explain it.

 

[Remec]

Oh and sugar doesn't rhyme with vulgar, although I suppose it could be a near rhyme. Sugar is pronounced Shoogar as near as I can explain it.

Or 'shuhgah' if you've been livin' in the part of the country I've been in for long enough. hehehe

 

[pelegrino]

Thanks for all explanations, UYS, it's nice to know all these things. You obviously go a long way back you two, and how could I sail through an old friend's code?

I have eaten a lot of cod and chips in my life also, but I always take the butter off and go straight for the flesh, otherwise very unhealthy.