What's wrong with rhyme?

[Angeline]

Or 'shuhgah' if you've been livin' in the part of the country I've been in for long enough. hehehe

Ha! I was going to say that and while I wandered off to eat dinner, you did.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Or 'shuhgah' if you've been livin' in the part of the country I've been in for long enough. hehehe

You sound like Sean Connery

Thanks for all explanations, UYS, it's nice to know all these things. You obviously go a long way back you two, and how could I sail through an old friend's code?

I have eaten a lot of cod and chips in my life also, but I always take the butter off and go straight for the flesh, otherwise very unhealthy.

Wouldn't say we go back that far we 'met' on here the same as everyone else and even if I hadn't known her former name on here I'd still have found it amusing presuming it was a typo

 

[twelveoone]

APRIL is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers.



Do you think Old Tom knew what he was doing?

con·straint
[kuhn-streynt] Show IPA
noun
1.
limitation or restriction.
2.
repression of natural feelings and impulses: to practice constraint.
3.
unnatural restraint in manner, conversation, etc.; embarrassment.
4.
something that constrains.
5.
the act of constraining.

 

[champagne1982]

APRIL is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers.



Do you think Old Tom knew what he was doing?

con·straint
[kuhn-streynt] Show IPA
noun
1.
limitation or restriction.
2.
repression of natural feelings and impulses: to practice constraint.
3.
unnatural restraint in manner, conversation, etc.; embarrassment.
4.
something that constrains.
5.
the act of constraining.

Indeed he did, m'sieu le douze-d'un. He practised more than constraint though. There's a great subtlety here making those gerunds into imperfect rhymes adjacent to one another. As I read it, I pause at each punctuation and then read through the end word as if it began the next line. Enjambment is a clever trick and one I try to emulate when I write, so as to make the rhyme unobtrusive yet to highlight it in some way as making them the end word does here.

Today, I feel as if Mother Nature is making me an April Fool. it's snowing here after 5 delightful days of sunshine and slow thaw. I'm waiting for the warmth of the sun to heat up those clouds and turn this into an April shower.

 

[pelegrino]

I think he probably did. Certainly about his meaning, and quite secure and natural on his chosen rhythm. I don't feel he practices constrain in rhyme in this short excerpt, rather the opposite. Rhyming the first with the sixth line is to me rhyming of the highest order. The in between near rhymes are building up the climax of the coitus between "breeding" and "feeding".
how old was old Tom when he wrote this?

 

[twelveoone]

You're right. I expressed myself poorly. Rhyme and form ARE constraints on how you say what you're saying, I just don't see them as constraints on WHAT you are saying.

would disagree, the value (relationship with all other words) of a word would change, it would constrain the meaning. "constrain" probably is not the best word to use, nor possibly is "meaning".
Four rhymed words at the end of the line out of sixteen, would probably mean the writer assumes more "value" would be assigned to those as opposed to than if all sixteen where rhymed.

Tempted to ask what prompted this line of inquiry? Outside of the fact that this is what you like to do (no slur, just writer's defense of own material, which every writer does, Poe, Eliot, Keats, et al.) Is there any other reason?

I will also gleefully point out that rhyme is easily programmed into a machine, and would also gleefully point out why. A huge percentage of people only recognize "poetry" as poetry, if it has end rhyme.


And greetings to Airstrip One:

It was only an 'opeless fancy.
It passed like an Ipril dye,
But a look an' a word an' the dreams they stirred
They 'ave stolen my 'eart awye!

They sye that time 'eals all things,
They sye you can always forget;
But the smiles an' the tears acrorss the years
They twist my 'eart-strings yet!


An obscure point to ponder, Milton despised it, yet used it, in a rather famous sonnet.

 

[twelveoone]

...They twist my 'eart-strings yet!

I am leading to something here, there is text that follows...

back to rime, about 10 years ago, most online poetry pubs, did not want to see submissions in rime, why? and did that change?

 

[butters]

would disagree, the value (relationship with all other words) of a word would change, it would constrain the meaning. "constrain" probably is not the best word to use, nor possibly is "meaning".
Four rhymed words at the end of the line out of sixteen, would probably mean the writer assumes more "value" would be assigned to those as opposed to than if all sixteen where rhymed.

Tempted to ask what prompted this line of inquiry? Outside of the fact that this is what you like to do (no slur, just writer's defense of own material, which every writer does, Poe, Eliot, Keats, et al.) Is there any other reason?

I will also gleefully point out that rhyme is easily programmed into a machine, and would also gleefully point out why. A huge percentage of people only recognize "poetry" as poetry, if it has end rhyme.


And greetings to Airstrip One:

It was only an 'opeless fancy.
It passed like an Ipril dye,
But a look an' a word an' the dreams they stirred
They 'ave stolen my 'eart awye!

They sye that time 'eals all things,
They sye you can always forget;
But the smiles an' the tears acrorss the years
They twist my 'eart-strings yet!


An obscure point to ponder, Milton despised it, yet used it, in a rather famous sonnet.

from airstrip one

so... the danger of using rhyme (for rhyme's sake), or set parameters to hone skill without emotional connection, is of falling into the trap of non-imagination, no deep thought, no deep feelings? that place where passing fancies, especially of the 'opeless variety, and other divergent thoughts become dangerous precipices to step away from, and so writes, ultimately, become souless - the poet might as well be machine.

we practise because we feel it hones our skills, like jigsaw puzzles made up of words - but when we become slave to the exercise, when it becomes all 'head poem' and no heart, it must ultimately be viewed as a failure - by the author if not the reader. at least, it's how i feel when i've gone down those paths. disassociation from your own write is an ugly affair.

 

[pelegrino]

from airstrip one

so... the danger of using rhyme (for rhyme's sake), or set parameters to hone skill without emotional connection, is of falling into the trap of non-imagination, no deep thought, no deep feelings? that place where passing fancies, especially of the 'opeless variety, and other divergent thoughts become dangerous precipices to step away from, and so writes, ultimately, become souless - the poet might as well be machine.

we practise because we feel it hones our skills, like jigsaw puzzles made up of words - but when we become slave to the exercise, when it becomes all 'head poem' and no heart, it must ultimately be viewed as a failure - by the author if not the reader. at least, it's how i feel when i've gone down those paths. disassociation from your own write is an ugly affair.

I admire your insight and I do not totally disagree, Butters, neither do I play the devil's advocate, but in keeping my doubts, tortured soul that I am, I may as well put it an opposite way:

Using rhyme (for rhyme's sake), as opposed to using art for art's sake, sets parameters to hone skills and at the same time avoids falling into the trap of emotional connection, imagination, deep thought and deep feelings-these things not been always desirable, and belonging to that place where passing fancies, especially of the 'opeless variety, and other divergent thoughts become dangerous precipices to step away from, because writes, ultimately, become so full of soul - the poet might as well be immaterial.

we practise because we feel it hones our skills, like jigsaw puzzles made up of words - but when we become slave to the exercise, when it becomes all 'heart poem' and no head, it must ultimately be viewed as a failure - by the author if not the reader. at least, it's how I feel when I've gone down those paths. Such close association with your own write is an ugly affair.

 

[butters]

I admire your insight and I do not totally disagree, Butters, neither do I play the devil's advocate, but in keeping my doubts, tortured soul that I am, I may as well put it an opposite way:

Using rhyme (for rhyme's sake), as opposed to using art for art's sake, sets parameters to hone skills and at the same time avoids falling into the trap of emotional connection, imagination, deep thought and deep feelings-these things not been always desirable, and belonging to that place where passing fancies, especially of the 'opeless variety, and other divergent thoughts become dangerous precipices to step away from, because writes, ultimately, become so full of soul - the poet might as well be immaterial.

we practise because we feel it hones our skills, like jigsaw puzzles made up of words - but when we become slave to the exercise, when it becomes all 'heart poem' and no head, it must ultimately be viewed as a failure - by the author if not the reader. at least, it's how I feel when I've gone down those paths. Such close association with your own write is an ugly affair.

devil's advocate is always a position worth exploring, pelegrino - i do it enough myself

re your ammendment: it's all about the balance, isn't it? too much weight on one end of the seesaw makes for a disappointing ride - get the balance at least closer to the fulcrum, and we have happy writer + happy reader. well, at least some of the time.

 

[pelegrino]

I absolutely agree now.
Balance... Harmony... Happiness...

 

[pelegrino]

On Terminology

In a link provided originally by 1201 I found the following definitions:

Types of Rhyme
• Perfect Rhyme: The words are in complete aural correspondence. An example would be: Certain and Curtain.
• Forced Rhyme: An unnatural rhyme that forces a rhyme where it should not otherwise be.
• Slant Rhyme: The words are similar but lack perfect correspondence. Example: found and kind, grime and game.
• Masculine Rhyme: Has a single stressed syllable rhyme. Example: fight and tight, stove and trove.
• Feminine Rhyme: A stressed syllable rhyme followed by an unstressed syllable. Example: carrot and garret, sever and never.
• Visual Rhyme: A rhyme that only looks similar, but when spoken sound different. Example: slaughter and laughter. This type of rhyme can be used more to make a visual pattern than to make a aural rhyme.

I want to discuss only the fourth and fifth of these definitions in this post, which define the number of syllables as one for masculine and two for feminine (with the stress on the first syllable for the feminine type).
I think there is much wrong with the terms "masculine" and "feminine" rhyme in poetry.
I suspect these terms have been borrowed from musical terminology, but even if the opposite is the case, in that art they are already redundant.(If you want to read more, I give a link to an article in wiki).
If we consider words as sounds, only by metaphor we can assign to them such adjectives, in reality they remain sexless. But if we insist then the issue of cadence in music or of stress in poetry may confuse people. In the case of poetry the terms masculine and feminine are also inadequate as to the number of potentially stressed syllables.
Music has cleared its act (its terminology) a long time ago, but in poetry we still hung on to these decadent terms which, I suspect, owe their existence to lack of accurate knowledge, misconception, extra-musical, extra-poetical considerations, or even sheer stupidity on the part of scholars.
It is highly debatable for all stressed languages if words in them can be stressed in the forth syllable from the end.
In some languages it may be possible but those words would not be a lot and at all events a secondary stress in them may be clearly discernible. The general norm for all stressed languages remains that words are stressed in the first, second and third syllable from the end.
Stress in the last syllable can be covered by the masculine type.
Stress in the penultimate syllable can be covered by the feminine type.
Stress in the third from the end syllable can be covered by… ooops, do we have to invent a new sex, or a new term, or I don’t know what.
Instead of referring again to aforesaid scholars I look at poetic terminology already in existence.
To me the last foot of a line, ending in one stressed syllable, is an iambus, so I call that iambic rhyme. I don’t need any masculine connotations or terminology.
To me the last foot of a line, ending in two syllables of which the first is stressed, is a trochee, so I call that trochaic rhyme.
I don’t need any feminine connotations or terminology.
To me the last foot of a line, ending in three syllables of which the first is stressed, is a dactyl, so I call that dactylic rhyme.
I don’t need any (invented) third sex connotations or terminology.
What would you say so far with my line of thinking? Ok, don’t throw stones any way I'm gonna stick to it.

The above terminology is borrowed only from poetical feet nomenclature, ie from poetry itself.
A more grammatical/technical to replace it would be:
Iambus = Oxytone
Trochee = Paroxytone
Dactyl = Proparoxytone.

Of course these three new terms don’t exist yet as words in English. Well, it might be another omission of those scholars again, I don’t know, but I can assure you, they exist in Greek grammar from time immemorial.
It is only a matter of revising and enriching terminology after all.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminine_cadence#Rhythmic_classifications

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Good grief what a load of dissection, (and that's being polite!) all that waffle takes away the poetry of poetry!

 

[pelegrino]

Good grief what a load of dissection, (and that's being polite!) all that waffle takes away the poetry of poetry!

I agree with you, UYS, that all that waffle takes away the joy from poetry, but somebody has to do it. As I said in a few posts so far, writing about technique and its terminology is not about the content of the art itself, but as in this post, only a matter of revising poetical terminology, so that some poets can waffle better and more conscious of themselves.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I agree with you, UYS, that all that waffle takes away the joy from poetry, but somebody has to do it. As I said in a few posts so far, writing about technique and its terminology is not about the content of the art itself, but as in this post, only a matter of revising poetical terminology, so that some poets can waffle better and more conscious of themselves.

lol love the 'waffle better'

 

[butters]

i have striven, oh god, how i have striven, to waffle better

 

[Remec]

i have striven, oh god, how i have striven, to waffle better

Y'know, somehow the thought of watching you waffle sounds quite entertaining.

 

[butters]

Y'know, somehow the thought of watching you waffle sounds quite entertaining.

hahahahahhahahaha x

 

[UnderYourSpell]

*sits and contemplates buttered waffles, but only sees crumpets oozing from every pore*

 

[butters]

*sits and contemplates buttered waffles, but only sees crumpets oozing from every pore*

now i do have a thing for buttered crumpets, 'tis true... but that image of them oozing from every pore is making me queasy

 

[butters]

too rime, or not too rime?

a blood-red rose in rime
waits for the sun's melt-breath
to dissolve its chill

 

[UnderYourSpell]

now i do have a thing for buttered crumpets, 'tis true... but that image of them oozing from every pore is making me queasy

Ooops sorry

 

[pelegrino]

My rhyme does not rhyme,
but that is not a crime,
I'll get it right next time.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

My rhyme does not rhyme,
but that is not a crime,
I'll get it right next time.

that would 'scan' better if you changed 'next' to 'another'

 

[pelegrino]

My rhyme does not rhyme,
but that is not a crime,
I'll get it right another time.

there.