When is "incest" NOT incest?

[gunhilltrain]

Lol wrong book. You're thinking of the Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs.

You can do a super quick Google search or just take my word for it, but the 144k is just a reference to a sub-set of the inhabitants of heaven. I promise.

So what does the 144,000 number mean in that case? You mean they have castes or groups in the afterlife? I just had a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses ring my bell last week. If the number is limited, why recruit any more?

 

[Bramblethorn]

So what does the 144,000 number mean in that case? You mean they have castes or groups in the afterlife? I just had a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses ring my bell last week. If the number is limited, why recruit any more?

Yep, they have a kind of tiered afterlife, although it's not something they emphasise in recruiting.

IIRC it goes something like this: the JWs originally taught that the world was going to end in... 1914, I think? And that only 144,000 would be saved. One of those "get in now or miss out!" deals. But 1914 came and went, and the church passed 144,000 members, so that teaching became inconvenient and they "clarified" it. Now the deal is that the 144,000 anointed get to dwell in heaven with God, and the rest get to live forever in an earthly paradise, separated from God.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Lol wrong book. You're thinking of the Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs.

You can do a super quick Google search or just take my word for it, but the 144k is just a reference to a sub-set of the inhabitants of heaven. I promise.

Those beliefs are based on Biblical passages, though - primarily the beginning of Revelations 14. Though most other Christian faiths don't interpret those passages the same way.

Strictly speaking I think only the 144k go to heaven-heaven, with the rest getting "heaven on earth".

edit: missed that @Djmac1031 had already responded on this.

 

[SimonDoom]

When they are adopted.

OK, but here's the problem with that. One of the most popular and successful incest stories in the history of online erotica is SpacerX's epic Six Times a Day series, some of which is posted here at Lit. You have to go elsewhere to read it in its entirety. It's a story centered on an adopted son and his mom and adopted sister. If you read the story, it's definitely incest. It reads like incest and it has the same kinky appeal as incest. The adoption element is dealt with in a quick cursory way.

My general take is: categories should be interpreted liberally, not strictly. Focus on where you will get the highest number of approving readers, rather than on trying to avoid the negative readers.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Yep, they have a kind of tiered afterlife, although it's not something they emphasise in recruiting.

IIRC it goes something like this: the JWs originally taught that the world was going to end in... 1914, I think? And that only 144,000 would be saved. One of those "get in now or miss out!" deals. But 1914 came and went, and the church passed 144,000 members, so that teaching became inconvenient and they "clarified" it. Now the deal is that the 144,000 anointed get to dwell in heaven with God, and the rest get to live forever in an earthly paradise, separated from God.

Actually, they solved the dating problem by declaring that the world did come to an end in 1914 (hence their refusal to accept any earthly nation's holidays and all); it was just that, as you can read in Revelations, the end will take some time. The "end times" will actually end when there are 144,000 of the 'purist' believers; then JC will come and gather them up to high heaven while the more pedestrian commoners will have a more worldly paradise.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

So what does the 144,000 number mean in that case? You mean they have castes or groups in the afterlife? I just had a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses ring my bell last week. If the number is limited, why recruit any more?

Do you want the normal answer? Or the JW answer? Most Christians believe that the 144k are a select number of physical descendants of Abraham, who follow Christ and are given a unique place within the kingdom of heaven.

JW believe that they are the 144k. They used to believe that it was all JW, until they got more than 144k members, and they had to change their story. Lol

Now they say that SOME of them are the 144k

 

[Djmac1031]

Now they say that SOME of them are the 144k

The problem they've had with THAT is, every year more and more members are reporting themselves as "anointed," (IE one of the 144K SPECIFICALLY chosen by God Himself to go to heaven) despite the fact that the selection process SUPPOSEDLY started immediately after Jesus' death.

And it's not until that selection process is done and all 144k are chosen that God will bring about Armageddon; the violent destruction of everyone who isn't a JW.

Good person but chose the wrong religion? Too bad. You will be destroyed by fire and birds will eat your carcass.

Meanwhile the surviving JWs on earth then get to live forever...after the privilege of cleaning up the mess of course.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Meanwhile the surviving JWs on earth then get to live forever...after the privilege of cleaning up the mess of course.

Will they restore public transit services, or mostly depend on automobiles?

 

[gunhilltrain]

The problem they've had with THAT is, every year more and more members are reporting themselves as "anointed," (IE one of the 144K SPECIFICALLY chosen by God Himself to go to heaven) despite the fact that the selection process SUPPOSEDLY started immediately after Jesus' death.

The human mind is an amazing thing.

 

[Djmac1031]

Will they restore public transit services, or mostly depend on automobiles?

Oh I'm sure they think it'll all just work out fine with horse & carriage

 

[lovecraft68]

The problem they've had with THAT is, every year more and more members are reporting themselves as "anointed," (IE one of the 144K SPECIFICALLY chosen by God Himself to go to heaven) despite the fact that the selection process SUPPOSEDLY started immediately after Jesus' death.

And it's not until that selection process is done and all 144k are chosen that God will bring about Armageddon; the violent destruction of everyone who isn't a JW.

Good person but chose the wrong religion? Too bad. You will be destroyed by fire and birds will eat your carcass.

Meanwhile the surviving JWs on earth then get to live forever...after the privilege of cleaning up the mess of course.

But if the only remaining people on Earth are Jewish who are the woke going to call racist?

 

[sarod]

might be just me, but I don't believe it is incest unless it is between blood relations. Adopted doesn't count, related through marriage doesn't count, pure unadulterated incest is between a shared dna sequence and another.

 

[Djmac1031]

But if the only remaining people on Earth are Jewish who are the woke going to call racist?

Oh, JWs aren't Jewish, just to be clear.

 

[lovecraft68]

might be just me, but I don't believe it is incest unless it is between blood relations. Adopted doesn't count, related through marriage doesn't count, pure unadulterated incest is between a shared dna sequence and another.

Yes, and even then I see it in only close relations. Siblings, parents...but after something is even once "removed" I think it gets sketchy.

I recently published an e-book where one of the MC's was seduced by her aunt, then her uncle joins and she became a bit of a pet to them, visiting on the weekends and they'd give her "a little something towards" school and she'd spend the weekend between them.

In her dealing with it later in life, she questions of its actual incest. Her aunt is her mother's sister, not HER sister or mother, and the uncle married into the family so he's her mother's brother in law, not blood brother.

In spirit of the genre, people will see it as incest, and its no doubt a societal taboo, but is it truly incest?

I wonder...then wonder why I wonder

Probably because I write too much of this stuff and debating your own story is a sign of that.

 

[lovecraft68]

Oh, JWs aren't Jewish, just to be clear.

Okay, but my question still stands, if only one group is around who will be targeted as supremacist's?

I'm Polish Russian...by nature(and ethnic jokes) I'm stupid and stubborn, odds are we're not making it.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Oh I'm sure they think it'll all just work out fine with horse & carriage

Yeah, I'm not sure they'll have enough people, plus the right skills, to operate auto assembly plants. Or even run bus lines. I know, I've drifted away from the incest topic, but these Jehovah's Witnesses are fascinating but weird. I was raised Catholic, and that seems straightforward in comparison.

 

[Djmac1031]

Yeah, I'm not sure they'll have enough people, plus the right skills, to operate auto assembly plants. Or even run bus lines. I know, I've drifted away from the incest topic, but these Jehovah's Witnesses are fascinating but weird. I was raised Catholic, and that seems straightforward in comparison.

I could spend hours, days, going on about just how bizarre their belief system is.

Essentially, they're a cult. One I finally managed to break free from a long time ago.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yeah, I'm not sure they'll have enough people, plus the right skills, to operate auto assembly plants. Or even run bus lines. I know, I've drifted away from the incest topic, but these Jehovah's Witnesses are fascinating but weird. I was raised Catholic, and that seems straightforward in comparison.

I'll give them credit, these people still go door to door knowing they're going to get a lot of derision and they're the butt of jokes, but they do it anyway, which shows some conviction

Meanwhile most Catholics show up on Easter and Christmas.

Sin for six, sorry on seven, sin six more. Great ideology.

 

[Djmac1031]

I'll give them credit, these people still go door to door knowing they're going to get a lot of derision and they're the butt of jokes, but they do it anyway, which shows some conviction

Most of them hate it, but do it anyway.

It's a requirement. If they don't they can be shunned by the congregation (and their family) and of course God will destroy them with the rest if the "wicked."

How's that for motivation?

 

[gunhilltrain]

Yes, and even then I see it in only close relations. Siblings, parents...but after something is even once "removed" I think it gets sketchy.

I recently published an e-book where one of the MC's was seduced by her aunt, then her uncle joins and she became a bit of a pet to them, visiting on the weekends and they'd give her "a little something towards" school and she'd spend the weekend between them.

In her dealing with it later in life, she questions of its actual incest. Her aunt is her mother's sister, not HER sister or mother, and the uncle married into the family so he's her mother's brother in law, not blood brother.

In spirit of the genre, people will see it as incest, and its no doubt a societal taboo, but is it truly incest?

I wonder...then wonder why I wonder

Probably because I write too much of this stuff and debating your own story is a sign of that.

It's actually okay, I think, to write as much as you please. Debating the cause of it all, or even how to define it, gets a bit problematic. That is why threads like this, or the ones on non-consent, end up consuming themselves – eating their own tails as that expression goes.

 

[Djmac1031]

It's actually okay, I think, to write as much as you please. Debating the cause of it all, or even how to define it, gets a bit problematic. That is why threads like this, or the ones on non-consent, end up consuming themselves – eating their own tails as that expression goes.

As I said earlier, i never expected some Definitive Answer on this topic.

It was more about opening a discussion/debate on the concept of incest as a Fantasy Story and how one goes about categorizing it etc.

I fully expected varied viewpoints, and I got them

 

[gunhilltrain]

I'll give them credit, these people still go door to door knowing they're going to get a lot of derision and they're the butt of jokes, but they do it anyway, which shows some conviction

Meanwhile most Catholics show up on Easter and Christmas.

Sin for six, sorry on seven, sin six more. Great ideology.

I admire their conviction, even if I don't believe what they think. Regarding more conventional religions, like Catholicism, I never could figure out how literally they are supposed to be taken. Say the afterlife - is that mostly metaphorical?

I saw a couple of those young Mormon guys the other day. I was standing at 188th and Valentine Avenue, a very hot day, and here comes an anomaly; two white guys in short-sleeved white shirts and ties. One of them invited me to church - I assume one of his. I said something like, "I'll think about it."

https://www.narratively.com/p/mission-impossible-mormons-take-harlem

 

[SimonDoom]

In this situation, it all comes down to when the adoption happens. There's a huge difference between a kid adopted at 16 and a baby adopted at 2. When a baby gets adopted that young, the only parent they've ever known is the adoptive one. So, from a mental perspective, it's pretty clear that it's incest.

The ONLY thing that's relevant is the perception of the reader, for purposes of this site. That's it. Real world definitions and perceptions are completely irrelevant. You're hung up on stuff that doesn't matter at all. If as an author you can make two step-relatives appear to the reader to be relatives, then you've got incest. All this hand-wringing over ages and specific details in the real world is completely unimportant.

 

[SimonDoom]

Having a reasonable and courteous discussion with an anarchist seems impossible. I don't know why I keep wasting my time. I'm done!




(take 3 )

Your description of me as an "anarchist" is extremely amusing.
Maybe I'm easily amused.

 

[lovecraft68]

It's actually okay, I think, to write as much as you please. Debating the cause of it all, or even how to define it, gets a bit problematic. That is why threads like this, or the ones on non-consent, end up consuming themselves – eating their own tails as that expression goes.

This was a case of I wanted the character to debate it, and at one point she even whispers out loud "Way to justify" but in writing it, I began to buy into my own argument and be like "Hmmm...." In the end its one of those things each reader will decide what they want it to be. But interesting how I go caught up in the loop