Where are all the men?

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

How do you get that??? Deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment fits Keroin's self-description in relation to pregnancy and war. I recently used the word to describe some fresh out of school folks in my office who don't quite get typical office politics. Inexperienced also works well. Reading a book on office politics or being aware of office politics is really no substitute for just working in an office.

I don't understand why any of this is an argument. It doesn't mean younger folks have nothing to add or even less to add. It's simply a different perspective.

The new people in your office are naive to think there are no office politics. Not being schooled in the office politics, but knowing it exists, just makes them inexperienced in it.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I wish you could have seen the smile that spread across my face when he said the line about the smell in the Sistine Chapel.



Thanks so much for that.

Me, too. I still remember the smell of all those old chapels and cathedrals. Never got to the Sistine, but went through dozens of them in Venice, Naples, Florence... I don't know why, but they didn't smell the same as any other buildings in the whole country. You could tell just from the ambient aroma that you were in a cathedral/chapel. Maybe it was the result of hundreds of years of the censers being swung down the aisle by the altar boys. I dunno, but it was - and presumably still is - distinct.

 

[ZRT]

Hold it - are you proposing that subjects such as history/literature [and by association humanities such as art] are a "luxury"?

Yup. In starkly realistic terms, they're exactly that.

Take the third world subsistence farmer and tell me how his life would be improved by knowing the deep and subtle meanings in Moby Dick as compared learning how to improve his irrigation system.

Luxury study doesn't mean a field is useless- as I said, history is very important if you have the time.

But given the choice between being stranded on a deserted island with a bunch of engineers of various stripe and a bunch of lit grads, I'll take the engineers. And I fucking hate a lot of the engineers I know and get along along with the non-pretentious lit grads quite well.

Duh. College vs real word, real world wins every time. I never said college compares to the real world. I gave you lessons learned in college that don't come from a textbook. Its the soft landing before the real world hits.

Would you rather learn about good attendance from flunking a class or getting fired?

Would you rather learn about independence from the comfort of a dorm room or an apartment you got on your own?

Would you rather learn about finance from the student debts you have or when they foreclose on your home?

College is being thrown into the middle of the pool with swimmies on. Real world is being thrown into the deep end with nothing.

Alright, point taken (and a good one that I hadn't really considered.)

But a lot of that life lesson impact is blunted by the fact that a good many (if not most) college students are still subsidized by their families. The fact that people discuss which schools are the best party schools and go on about the co-ed ratios is example of what's wrong with the system.

Doubtful there will be a firestorm around here. Your point of view is far from rare, here, there and everywhere.

I disagree with you and it makes me sad that that point of view is widely held. I'm not sure if the liberal arts education will become extinct.

Could you please give me your views as to how and where I'm wrong on the topic?

I can be rather emphatic at times, but I really do appreciate differing viewpoints.

 

[Keroin]

Yup. In starkly realistic terms, they're exactly that.

Take the third world subsistence farmer and tell me how his life would be improved by knowing the deep and subtle meanings in Moby Dick as compared learning how to improve his irrigation system.

Luxury study doesn't mean a field is useless- as I said, history is very important if you have the time.

But given the choice between being stranded on a deserted island with a bunch of engineers of various stripe and a bunch of lit grads, I'll take the engineers. And I fucking hate a lot of the engineers I know and get along along with the non-pretentious lit grads quite well.

Mind if I pounce?

Yes, the need for food & clean water will trump the need for a rousing performance of the HMS Pinafore 99% of the time but don't undervalue the importance of "art" to third world sustenance farmers and their kind. The songs sung in the field, the stories passed along to each generation, the folk dances, etc, etc, these may not be Moby Dick but they are almost as nourishing as bread to many people of small means.

Art can help heal children scarred by war, encourage a sense of community in impoverished areas, give people a healthy outlet for anger and grief, bring light to the dark corners of the world. Art alone cannot solve the world's problems, no, but I cannot call it a luxury.

I'm thinking now of that documentary, "Born Into Brothels" about the American (?) photographer who goes to India to teach young children about photography in the hopes of getting them out of the cycle of poverty and prostitution. Some made it! Hooray for art. Brilliant film.

BTW, I am stuck on a deserted island and I wish I had a couple dozen Lit grads kicking around so I didn't have to inflict myself on everyone here every day in the hopes of some intelligent conversation!

 

[Keroin]

I knew I’d come up with an annoying anecdote if I thought about it long enough!

Re: Age = experience

Remember the tech stock boom of the late 90’s? At the time, I was in my late twenties, I had money invested and I was stoked. I did a lot of research, I was confident.

In the winter, I’d spend a lot of time in Mexico in a park populated by people at least two decades older than me. Oh I blabbed and blabbed about the tech stocks and how happy I was to get in relatively early and how I was going to be set for life.

My older friends warned me. “It can’t go up forever”, “You shouldn’t be risking so much money”, “Nothing is certain in the stock market”, “Greed clouds your judgment”, yadda, yadda, yadda. I shrugged them off because they were just old fashioned, they didn’t understand, they thought I was stupid because I was younger than them.

Then…poof. Stocks crash. Money gone. I didn’t lose everything but I lost lots. What I gained, though, was invaluable. I learned that my friends weren’t trying to make me feel naïve, they were trying to help me. They’d been there, they’d done that, they were hoping that their knowledge might stop me from getting hurt. I was stupid. (Also: arrogant, reckless, and inexperienced). I didn’t listen. I let my pride shut my ears.

I don’t automatically give someone respect because they’re older than me but I’ve learned not to take references to my age as an insult and to pay more attention to what the more “lived” among us have to say.

 

[Homburg]

I agree with SD on this point. If I'm in any social situation at all, or even just out and about running errands, the woman I would approach would be the one I find attractive. I consider this to be 100% normal behavior, for males and females alike.

I consider it normal as well. I lay no claim, however, to being "normal" myself. And I'm not saying that in a cocky "lookit me, I'm speshul" way. I don't consider my attitude to be somehow superior to the person that can just go for the sort of intro being discussed.

If the interaction fits the personalities involved, you can work toward your goal by chatting via PM, or roleplaying as a talking cock on the Internet. If the end result is that you get what you want, physically, emotionally, and otherwise, then you've won.

I understand better now. I'd equated your use of "game" to be indicative of skill at picking up women.

The talking cock thing really was absurdly effective.

--

This is the way I meet anybody, though. Usually, the asking-out portion doesn’t happen until further down the road when we’ve formed a friendly connection. At that point, maybe the man might ask me if I’d like to do something socially, just the two of us and, because we already have a comfort level, I’ll say yes.

This. I form a friendly connection first. If things go well, I may go for more. This almost obliterates clubs/bars as places for me to meet women. Conversation is too difficult when the music is being played at Mach Q volume.

--

Then I just start asking questions and showing real interest. It comes across as sincere. Probably because it is sincere. If I'm interested in a woman, I'm interested in -knowing- the woman.

Very much so.

I don't talk much about myself, in part because I don't share much.

I have no problem sharing. I just like to get people talking about themselves. At least part of that is due to spending years conducting investigative interviews.

Fuck that shit, I drive a fifteen-year-old car, my job interests me but doesn't interest most because it's pretty technical, and my awesome adventures aren't for public consumption.

Wait, my car is nineteen years old. Whoops. And it's the newest one I've ever owned, too.

Mine is eleven years old, and the only reason I'm driving something that new is that my father-in-law gave it to me when he got his convertible. And, yeah, my job just doesn't usually seem like fodder for interesting discussion, regardless of how much it interests me.

Guys will ask me what my trick is, and the answer is that there isn't a trick and that's the trick.

I can't count how many times one of my friends has said "How the fuck do you do that?" to me after I randomly chatted up some woman to good effect. The fact that I never follow up on the chatting to get a phone number or date frustrates them even more. (I have a couple of friends that start bitching and ranting at me if I even mention the "barking girl." Fun night that was.)

--

Added and slightly off topic: I know lots of people do it and have terrific experiences but, personally, I can't fathom ever meeting someone online and becoming romantic. Friendship, of a limited variety? Yes. Relationship, either romantic or sexual? No. Maybe I'm just too picky?

Eh, I thought the same thing. Then it happened to me.

--

I loved that scene in the Travolta movie Michael when he saw the bull and shouted "Battle!".

One of my favourite scenes from a movie ever.

--

So it's one of those statements that could go either way, depending on who's speaking. I think that you can safely assume that with most of our venerable elders (Winston or HOMBURG, for example) here that it's not being derogatory.

Hadn't picked on Hommy lately. He's probably thinking I don't love him anymore.

Apparently, I need to piss on you. Hold still.

*reaches for his zipper*

--

I'd argue that the humanities are currently undervalued by society, and it's going to bite us in the ass within a generation or two (as if it isn't, already).

We are becoming more adept at being proficient in various fields, and less and less cognizant of the world outside those fields. More technical, less educated. It is despicable.

As Heinlein said, "Specialization is for insects."

 

[YourCaptor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM-gZintWDc

Not my favorite actor, or film, but that clip says it all.

Ok, honestly, the way I interpret that clip it really does nothing for your argument. All I see is that you can't presume to know somebody.

 

[MisterSir]

Would you rather learn about good attendance from flunking a class or getting fired?

To point an extra something out about this - for the vast majority of students, college will be the first time where the teachers do not care whether you turn up or not, and most of them don't even recognise you. That is a strange new sensation but if anything can teach a person about being responsible for himself, it's bunking off half his first year classes then averaging a mark of 53 for that year, which was a rather nasty shock to the system.

But a lot of that life lesson impact is blunted by the fact that a good many (if not most) college students are still subsidized by their families. The fact that people discuss which schools are the best party schools and go on about the co-ed ratios is example of what's wrong with the system.

Setting aside the American-influenced bit of that - I can safely say I've never once heard anybody discuss which schools were the best party places or had the best girl/boy ratio - it's really not, especially not if the family in question is anything like mine (not to go into details, but suffice it to say that me doing well means rather a lot to my parents). If they don't already understand that those who've banged on about learning to manage one's time and developing self-discipline know what they're talking about, college does a nice job of hammering that lesson in.
NB: Also, returning to the original point, being told that something I've spent three years in pursuit of is meaningless? Not particularly pleasant.

 

[intothewoods]

The new people in your office are naive to think there are no office politics. Not being schooled in the office politics, but knowing it exists, just makes them inexperienced in it.

Adjective
S: (adj) naive, naif (marked by or showing unaffected simplicity and lack of guile or worldly experience) "a teenager's naive ignorance of life"; "the naive assumption that things can only get better"; "this naive simple creature with wide friendly eyes so eager to believe appearances"
S: (adj) primitive, naive (of or created by one without formal training; simple or naive in style) "primitive art such as that by Grandma Moses is often colorful and striking"
S: (adj) naive (inexperienced)
S: (adj) uninstructed, unenlightened, naive (lacking information or instruction) "lamentably unenlightened as to the laws"
S: (adj) uninitiate, uninitiated, naive (not initiated; deficient in relevant experience) "it seemed a bizarre ceremony to uninitiated western eyes"; "he took part in the experiment as a naive subject"

Naive has multiple meanings, one of which is inexperienced.

 

[Shankara20]

Maybe. I'd worked up two versions in Photoshop; I'm not sure if this is the same one or not.

I have seen them both and I can say without a doubt that the one you have up is one of them, yes it is.

 

[00Syd]

Doubtful there will be a firestorm around here. Your point of view is far from rare, here, there and everywhere.

I disagree with you and it makes me sad that that point of view is widely held. I'm not sure if the liberal arts education will become extinct.

It won't. From what I know, the majority of schools, or at least the majority of well-respected schools have a basis in Liberal-Arts. I go to one of the most respected communications and media-arts schools on the east-coast (not bragging, just the truth) and while it could very easily be a business-oriented school, focusing only on the skills needed to get into your chosen industry, it is a liberal-arts college and every student has to take at least one class in every subject (history, lit, science, philosophy, etc).

Of all my friends currently in school, I don't know anyone who isn't going to a liberal-arts college.

 

[JMohegan]

Ok, honestly, the way I interpret that clip it really does nothing for your argument. All I see is that you can't presume to know somebody.

The clip was posted to punctuate Keroin's point about life experiences. A point I consider to be so self-evident that it requires no argument in order to be sustained.

By way of explanation - consider the difference between knowledge and understanding, using the definitions provided below.

Knowledge = acquaintance with facts.

Understanding = awareness of the significance, implications, or importance of something.

You can study math, consumer pricing, finance, and economics, acquiring detailed knowledge of everything related to the personal budgeting process. But you will never fully understand what it's like to exist as an adult responsible for family finances, until you spend time as such.

 

[00Syd]

I'd argue that the humanities are currently undervalued by society, and it's going to bite us in the ass within a generation or two (as if it isn't, already).

It is already. The level the US's collective ignorance on subjects like literature, art, and especially history is truly sad. So many people know so little about history, I'm amazed that anyone can make any sort of informed decision about politics, domestic affairs, or foreign affairs. I don't think the problem is with colleges, I think the problem is with our high schools. The problem only makes itself evident in colleges, because that's where we see kids who need at least a basic knowledge of these subjects in order to pass their classes, completely lacking it.

Kids aren't taught how to write an essay in high school anymore. Because most kids don't enter college with these skills, there are mandatory classes for freshman (in every school that I know of) to teach them how to write an essay. Its really pathetic and saddening. Luckily I was taught how to write an academic essay in my junior year of high school, and it really came in handy. Unfortunately I had to sit through a class re-teaching me. Twice.

 

[Netzach]

I don't see why coffee is a big deal, and I don't see why a dinner date is a big deal, either. That notion is just really foreign to me.

Rushing into things = making *commitments* without knowing each other well.

Dinner = conversation with food, period.

I'm not saying your perspective is "just you," but I've had success getting to know women one-on-one through coffee, dinner, athletic endeavors, sporting/music/art events, etc. all my life.

Coming from me, an initial invitation to dinner just means: "I want to get to know you better." It's no guarantee of an invitation to my bedroom, a 2nd date, or anything else. It is what it is: dinner. That's all.

If dinner goes well, then I may extend an invitation for something more. At which point, she would be free to accept or decline. And so on, and so on. That's the way pre-commitment dating works, in my world.

This sounds really nuts when I say it aloud, but it makes sense:

asking me to dinner weirds me out as in "would you like to have dinner with me?"

Dinner? Sweat. What does he want? How do I explain Netzie and Her Boyfriends? What?

Versus:

hey would you like to do something? I have to go to my bank and it puts me up near Brasa this Monday night, we could grab a bite?

Not creepy. End result is still = dinner. Only it's not Dinner.

And I thought I was really direct and shit. Ha.

 

[Netzach]

No, but increases the probability of it. It's not a black/white kind of thing, and even the wary can be suckered occasionally, especially if hit in a vulnerable spot.

This isn't saying that kids are dumb or less valuable or anything of the sort. It's simply saying that experience is the best teacher and the more experience one is exposed to, the more likely one is to be capable of handling things.

This depends entirely on the experience in question. Simply existing only teaches you if you let it and know how to let it. A lot of people in the US enjoy sheltered existences that leave their heads as lodged up their butts at 45 as they were at 15.

A seven year old cancer pt knows more about *the reality of his being sick* than a 60 year old who's always had stellar checkups, and even one who has MD after his name.

As for the uselessness of college, I don't think that the value in reading Milton or the Iliad is necessarily that a higher pay grade ensues. If that's your value system, then of course a lot of what passes as culture is a joke to you.

 

[Netzach]

I've encountered people who can't tie their own shoes and would die off if they were being written as fiction in ALL walks of life, including disenfranchised and poor and wealthy and schooled to the top percentiles.

The latter amazes us because we're biased in favor of money and access. People with NO practical facility in decision making and daily life aren't going to learn some if you give them some challenging math to do.

 

[JMohegan]

This sounds really nuts when I say it aloud, but it makes sense:

asking me to dinner weirds me out as in "would you like to have dinner with me?"

Dinner? Sweat. What does he want? How do I explain Netzie and Her Boyfriends? What?

Versus:

hey would you like to do something? I have to go to my bank and it puts me up near Brasa this Monday night, we could grab a bite?

Not creepy. End result is still = dinner. Only it's not Dinner.

And I thought I was really direct and shit. Ha.

That doesn't sound nuts to me at all.

What I was saying before, about guys who pay attention and adjust their words & behavior accordingly, relates to this type of thing, exactly.

The ability to do this comes in part from innate interpersonal intelligence, and in part from practice and skill. It's a mix of unconscious and conscious effort, depending on the person and the circumstances of the exchange.

I'm not saying there's such a thing as Superstud, capable of convincing any woman anywhere to sit down with him for a meal. Just saying that the guy with the uniform, static M.O. is operating at one end of a very long behavioral scale.

 

[Keroin]

It is already. The level the US's collective ignorance on subjects like literature, art, and especially history is truly sad. So many people know so little about history, I'm amazed that anyone can make any sort of informed decision about politics, domestic affairs, or foreign affairs. I don't think the problem is with colleges, I think the problem is with our high schools. The problem only makes itself evident in colleges, because that's where we see kids who need at least a basic knowledge of these subjects in order to pass their classes, completely lacking it.

Kids aren't taught how to write an essay in high school anymore. Because most kids don't enter college with these skills, there are mandatory classes for freshman (in every school that I know of) to teach them how to write an essay. Its really pathetic and saddening. Luckily I was taught how to write an academic essay in my junior year of high school, and it really came in handy. Unfortunately I had to sit through a class re-teaching me. Twice.

WHOA. Hold on a minute here. I had a vague notion that the public education system was a bit lacking but are you serious? Kids are actually beginning their post secondary education not having been taught to write an essay?!

We were writing essays in junior high. By grade 12 I could write them in my sleep. The only difference between HS and Uni was that the standards for essays were much higher in the latter. There was a course you could take at my university to *improve* your essay writing skills, (I didn't take it), but it wasn't a how-to by any means.

What's the deal?

Sorry, still shaking my head. In my English 11 honours class we had to write five essays just on Macbeth. Five. Has it really changed that much in 20 years?

 

[00Syd]

WHOA. Hold on a minute here. I had a vague notion that the public education system was a bit lacking but are you serious? Kids are actually beginning their post secondary education not having been taught to write an essay?!

We were writing essays in junior high. By grade 12 I could write them in my sleep. The only difference between HS and Uni was that the standards for essays were much higher in the latter. There was a course you could take at my university to *improve* your essay writing skills, (I didn't take it), but it wasn't a how-to by any means.

What's the deal?

Sorry, still shaking my head. In my English 11 honours class we had to write five essays just on Macbeth. Five. Has it really changed that much in 20 years?

It really has.

Of course in high school you learn how to write an essay, but not really... correctly. I know people who never had to write a proper essay in high school, who come out not knowing the correct format and rules for academic essays. And I don't mean the fancy shmancy secondary-education academia rules, I just mean stuff like citing sources (even incorrectly) and having a distinct introduction and conclusion.

The essay writing courses that freshman have to take in college are designed to only improve your essay skills, like the class that was offered when you were in college, but because so many kids go into college without basic essay writing skills, its become a how-to. I went to a NY state school for my first semester of my freshman year and the class there was so, so basic. I assumed that this was going to be a boring refresher for everyone else in the class, just like it was for me, but then when I had to do some group exercise I realized that the kids in my group had no idea how to properly format a paragraph. It was pathetic.

Whats happened is high schools (due to both state and federal mandates) have been forced to teach students how to take and pass standardized tests instead of teaching them how to write essays. Now, instead of writing 5 essays on Macbeth, high school students are much more likely to take 5 tests on it. Actually, what's even more likely than that, is students will take one test on it. This deterioration of academic standards in high school has forced colleges to lower their standards as well. Many people will argue this with me (as evidenced by our current public school standards), but in my opinion, a high score on a test does not equal the same academic standard as an A on a well written essay.

 

[Keroin]

It really has.

Of course in high school you learn how to write an essay, but not really... correctly. I know people who never had to write a proper essay in high school, who come out not knowing the correct format and rules for academic essays. And I don't mean the fancy shmancy secondary-education academia rules, I just mean stuff like citing sources (even incorrectly) and having a distinct introduction and conclusion.

The essay writing courses that freshman have to take in college are designed to only improve your essay skills, like the class that was offered when you were in college, but because so many kids go into college without basic essay writing skills, its become a how-to. I went to a NY state school for my first semester of my freshman year and the class there was so, so basic. I assumed that this was going to be a boring refresher for everyone else in the class, just like it was for me, but then when I had to do some group exercise I realized that the kids in my group had no idea how to properly format a paragraph. It was pathetic.

Whats happened is high schools (due to both state and federal mandates) have been forced to teach students how to take and pass standardized tests instead of teaching them how to write essays. Now, instead of writing 5 essays on Macbeth, high school students are much more likely to take 5 tests on it. Actually, what's even more likely than that, is students will take one test on it. This deterioration of academic standards in high school has forced colleges to lower their standards as well. Many people will argue this with me (as evidenced by our current public school standards), but in my opinion, a high score on a test does not equal the same academic standard as an A on a well written essay.

Agreed on the last bit. Essay writing, to me, is about learning to think for yourself and to formulate your ideas concisely and intelligently. Writing a test just doesn't compare.

A test says, "Tell me what you know about Macbeth"

An essay says, "Tell me what you think about Macbeth...and prove it."

Wow, I feel for you sitting through that course. Ugh. My HS had no honours English courses in Grade 12. It was weird. I took English Lit, which was aces, but it was an elective. I was required to take regular level English 12 to graduate and...holy cow, I had to remove my brain from my head for an entire semester. What a monumental waste of time. If I had to sit through it twice I might have started to devolve.

My gripe with the public school system was always that it was geared to the C student and those at the higher or lower ends of the spectrum were mostly left to fend for themselves.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

My gripe with the public school system was always that it was geared to the C student and those at the higher or lower ends of the spectrum were mostly left to fend for themselves.

That's one of the things that makes me happy to be the age I am, and have graduated from high school in the mid-60s. The core curriculum of each course was geared to the B-, C, C- student... but the better teachers - and that was actually most of them - would tailor assignments to the students they had. It was not at all unusual for the majority of the class to be assigned a four- to five-page report as a midterm project, with perhaps a quarter to a third of the class being quietly told that *their* project was eight to ten pages, and in junior and senior English classes, *with* ALA-standard references, either end notes or footnotes.

Funny thing, no one thought the differing assignments were "unfair" or "too hard" or "expecting too much." It was just the way things were done.

 

[JMohegan]

WHOA. Hold on a minute here. I had a vague notion that the public education system was a bit lacking but are you serious? Kids are actually beginning their post secondary education not having been taught to write an essay?

I would describe the US public education system as horribly skewed. Some students attend high schools with great facilities, great teachers, motivated peers, and a strong culture of achievement. Others attend schools for which the opposite is true, and then there's everything in between. It all depends on your zip code.

The applicability of Syd's statement, "Because most kids don't enter college with these skills, there are mandatory classes for freshman (in every school that I know of) to teach them how to write an essay," will depend entirely on the level of admissions difficulty at the college in question.

For selective schools, the purpose of such classes will not be to teach them how to write an essay, but rather how to refine their skills - and this is nothing new. See Harvard, for example. For a less prestigious but still selective institution, see BU (ranked 60th on the list of American universities by US News.)

[note to those who may object to that last bit: yes, I know the US News ranking system is deeply flawed. I'm just giving a general indication of relative selectivity for the benefit of those who may be unfamiliar with our system.]

 

[00Syd]

Agreed on the last bit. Essay writing, to me, is about learning to think for yourself and to formulate your ideas concisely and intelligently. Writing a test just doesn't compare.

A test says, "Tell me what you know about Macbeth"

An essay says, "Tell me what you think about Macbeth...and prove it."

Wow, I feel for you sitting through that course. Ugh. My HS had no honours English courses in Grade 12. It was weird. I took English Lit, which was aces, but it was an elective. I was required to take regular level English 12 to graduate and...holy cow, I had to remove my brain from my head for an entire semester. What a monumental waste of time. If I had to sit through it twice I might have started to devolve.

My gripe with the public school system was always that it was geared to the C student and those at the higher or lower ends of the spectrum were mostly left to fend for themselves.

My high school didn't have any honors courses because it didn't have the physical space for any extra classes (woo NYC public school), I mean we barely had enough room for regular classes. It was certainly a bummer. But luckily I also went to an anti-testing, pro-critical thinking (yes, yes, I know, buzz-word) school, which really made up for the lack of honors courses.

The old problem of teaching to the C student has been greatly exacerbated by the new problem of teaching to the test.

I have so, so many issues with the US public school system. I could go on and on if allowed.

 

[JMohegan]

The essay writing courses that freshman have to take in college are designed to only improve your essay skills, like the class that was offered when you were in college, but because so many kids go into college without basic essay writing skills, its become a how-to. I went to a NY state school for my first semester of my freshman year and the class there was so, so basic. I assumed that this was going to be a boring refresher for everyone else in the class, just like it was for me, but then when I had to do some group exercise I realized that the kids in my group had no idea how to properly format a paragraph. It was pathetic.

How/where did you learn to write, pre-college?

 

[00Syd]

I would describe the US public education system as horribly skewed. Some students attend high schools with great facilities, great teachers, motivated peers, and a strong culture of achievement. Others attend schools for which the opposite is true, and then there's everything in between. It all depends on your zip code.

The applicability of Syd's statement, "Because most kids don't enter college with these skills, there are mandatory classes for freshman (in every school that I know of) to teach them how to write an essay," will depend entirely on the level of admissions difficulty at the college in question.

For selective schools, the purpose of such classes will not be to teach them how to write an essay, but rather how to refine their skills - and this is nothing new. See Harvard, for example. For a less prestigious but still selective institution, see BU (ranked 60th on the list of American universities by US News.)

[note to those who may object to that last bit: yes, I know the US News ranking system is deeply flawed. I'm just giving a general indication of relative selectivity for the benefit of those who may be unfamiliar with our system.]

Yes, of course the selectivity of the schools comes into play. In my experience and observation, though, even the most selective schools end up admitting a large amount of kids who do not have basic essay writing skills, because if they didn't, they pool of kids to choose from would be too small, and they would end up admitting many kids who are otherwise unqualified.

I go to a very small, very selective, very respected school (I was very close to not being admitted) and many kids who are admitted do not know how to write an essay and there is a required essay writing course. If my school only accepted kids who could prove they could write an essay, my school would be much, much smaller.

The only school I know of (and this is from a large pool of schools, many of them very good, that friends of mine attend) that does not have a required essay-writing class is Yale.

Also, besides the personal essay that every school requires, very few schools require an academic essay along with their application. Without that, there is really no way to know. The only way a school could completely make sure that they are accepting only kids with basic essay knowledge, besides requiring an essay to be submitted with their application, is to only accept from top private schools that are known to teach these skills. And if that was the case, I would probably not have been accepted into my school.