Where's Twelve Oh?

[twelveoone]

For the life of me then, I don't see how a ghazal applies at all to Harry's poem.

Where indeed is 1201?

maybe it wasn't a ghazal as I said,
there is some mideast form that are two lines, and I don't remember what the organizational principle, but if he's lookin, he's learnin.

 

[twelveoone]

"...A ghazal is composed of couplets, five or more. The couplets may have nothing to do with one another, except for the formal unity derived from a strict rhyme and rhythm pattern..." (wiki) ...
..
The anglicised example in the article was rather weak in my opinion and used the same end rhyme in each end couplet. As for the themes, they sound like a country western song or a church hymn; but then, I see the name 'Rumi' and recognize that from another thread here. (assuming it's the same one without reading further) OOps, mistake #1 READ
..
So... let's throw the snake thing on the page, seperate the coils, cut off it's head and forget that it was written as a Spenserian stanza.
..
One fears losing their voice in modern times
Then struggles to find how to speak again

Chase serpent coiled vines of elusive rhymes
Winding tightly all 'round cowled words of man

Search they to find gems lost in grains of sand
Hidden glinting treasure for those that sift

Rich fruit awaits within slowly teased strands
Perhaps this search will find age old sweet gifts

Success granted reward that falls soft from the lips
..
Your suggestion follows ................................
..
Chase serpent coiled vines of elusive rhymes
Winding tightly all 'round cowled words of man

Rich fruit awaits within slowly teased strands
Perhaps this (hunt) will find age old sweet gifts

(The) fears (of) losing voice in modern times
(Leads to the depths of oft seldom used mines

Search (there) to find gems lost in grains of sand
Hidden glinting treasure for those that sift
.............
(no cliched alexandrine)
..
So?
P.S. thanks

is that what you are doing?
Why? It is an outer shell, don't write to it, write within it


One fears losing their voice in modern times
Then struggles to find how to speak again

these are two good lines. the rest seem to refer back to it, but seem overblown, and archaic.

two questions? why does one fear?

or how does one struggle?
you seem to answer that, how? by looking for...
gems lost in grains of sand
Hidden glinting treasure for those that sift

by looking ever deeper into the archaic?

In simple linear language, how do i get from point A to point B

is this the beginning

One fears losing their voice in modern times
Then struggles to find how to speak again

or the end, could even be both, if so what inbetween? you can think of the two lines as one unit and shuffle

One fears losing their voice in modern times
Then struggles to find how to speak again

serpent ...coiled vines
Winding tightly all 'round cowled words of man

Search strands
Hidden strands

weave and coil around these things

possibly throw in some
fruit
Perhaps
an apple

and you find the devil is in the arrangement
of the words

One fears losing their voice in modern times
Then struggles to find how to speak again

 

[HarryHill]

Terminology: (It is an outer shell, don't write to it, write within it)
are you saying that the form is a shell?

Gave me a lot of ideas... I'll get back to you... thanks again

 

[twelveoone]

Terminology: (It is an outer shell, don't write to it, write within it)
are you saying that the form is a shell?

Gave me a lot of ideas... I'll get back to you... thanks again

all forms seem to work better with a certain material for a certain effect, they were developed for that reason
most don't seem to realize that

as was so called metre

goes on and on and on and on and on

which i believe is the ol penti

There is a thread "Level Three" which I can't access, if you can take a look at Desijo's poem, she is organizing as " blocks of text", that is what I saw in yours/

Two years ago, Bogus did a pretty amazing thing, "blocks of text";"blocks of colour" was the basis of modern art, which started with Whistler.

 

[twelveoone]

"...A ghazal is composed of couplets, five or more. The couplets may have nothing to do with one another, except for the formal unity derived from a strict rhyme and rhythm pattern..." (wiki) ...
..
The anglicised example in the article was rather weak in my opinion and used the same end rhyme in each end couplet. As for the themes, they sound like a country western song or a church hymn; but then, I see the name 'Rumi' and recognize that from another thread here. (assuming it's the same one without reading further) OOps, mistake #1 READ

it was the ghazal

discrete blocks (The couplets may have nothing to do with one another)
organized
thus
formal unity derived from a strict rhyme and rhythm pattern

modify it to suit your needs. strengthen the material, and if that principle doesn't work. use another

trick is, all poems have an inner logic, this is what it is and this is what I want it to do, that is what you write too.

ask yourself why am I writing this?

One fears losing their voice in modern times
Then struggles to find how to speak again

rewrite this to best express what you want, there is your reason and there is your rhythm pattern, it looks like you are writing to the penti, it works, sort of, It sounds a little like whispy philosophizin; now is that the natural speech pattern from where you are? Is that the voice you want, WHY?
now look up shadow speaking

and yes I am saying the form is a shell, or a boundary, if you write to the shell you write empty, if it is a boundary it becomes an area of operations then the shell itself comes into play, think jai alai wall.
easy to say, tough to do, Maybe Demure101 does it best around here (EOL), Demure has had a lot of practice, but Demure also writes to the shell (internal) rather repetitive and rather dead and that works to an extent because of the material and that may be be Demure's voice. in that it doesn't hit false notes.

 

[HarryHill]

I have killed the snake thing and pulled weeds

The old poem is dead, scraped for parts, in it's place is a new piece called EVOLUTION; and yes, I am experimenting with pentameter. It should be up tommorow or Sunday, along with a whimsey? pieced abortion. (don't ask) In the meantime look in the 2013 challange and persue(persuse) GM's new one. I really liked it.

 

[greenmountaineer]

The old poem is dead, scraped for parts, in it's place is a new piece called EVOLUTION, and yes I am experimenting with pentameter. It should be up tommorow or Sunday, along with a whimsey? pieced abortion. (don't ask) In the meantime look in the 2013 challange and persue GM's new one. I really liked it.

I'm glad you liked it, Harry, but it's not one I'd stake my reputation on. It was more play than work.

I like what Demure does with blank verse, BTW.

 

[twelveoone]

The old poem is dead, scraped for parts, in it's place is a new piece called EVOLUTION; and yes, I am experimenting with pentameter. It should be up tommorow or Sunday, along with a whimsey? pieced abortion. (don't ask) In the meantime look in the 2013 challange and persue(persuse) GM's new one. I really liked it.

if you are referring to GM's Staten Island Baby, I liked it too, but then I sort of know Staten Island, they have cleaned it up some what, but for me it always is the most disorienting place on earth.

now if you are experimenting with pentameter, they are the two people I would pay attention to (GM and D), I would also pick up every god damn book on Frost, books about Frost's work. And I would also avoid the rush to production, live with the lines, bend them to the point of destruction, and then go back to the original and rework.

GM, good to see you, I came across some snippets on language that may be of interest to you, I'll see if I can find them and post the links, anyway it seems to lead in a direction that I suspected but I have to pursue it further.

And blank verse is still the penti, and 'tis not my religion. English is spoken largely by people who are not English, and I suspect most English don't live by the foot. Harry, Eliot had an article on Vers Libre, find it, read it very carefully. Frost said the same thing, the penti is the set up. The counterpoint, the establishment of a pattern for disruption. A cueing system. The lull before the storm. (mostly, hedging here)
It is also NOT the way language works.
The main stress is always on new information.
SPOT wags his TAIL
JANE wags HER tail
or um, as Descartes once said
I think I am a yam.

 

[twelveoone]

GM, good to see you, I came across some snippets on language that may be of interest to you, I'll see if I can find them and post the links, anyway it seems to lead in a direction that I suspected but I have to pursue it further.

re: staten island baby
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=124


http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005040.html

of possible interesthttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2790788/

see english part and end

 

[greenmountaineer]

re: staten island baby
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=124


http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005040.html

of possible interesthttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2790788/

see english part and end

I perused these, 1201, and my first impression was it's hard enough to listen to what politicians have to say without measuring the milliseconds of their speech patterns. I'm sure some things in the articles are worth learning about, and I look forward to more in-depth reading of them, but they're very complex. It's going to take me more time than I have today to get something out of them. I'll comment on any "aha's" if or when I find them.

My understanding of phonetics has always been more intuitive than academic, although I studied Spanish many years ago and spoke it in my work on a daily basis. Living as close as I do to French-speaking Quebec, I've also taught myself to read that language.

I've always been impressed with how few vowel sounds there are in Spanish and how crisp most of them sound whereas in French there are so many diphthongs and even triphthongs. While both languages are melodic, I think French is more so because of this. I also think their vowels and combinations tend to soften the sound of their consonants with some exceptions (I.e., the rolling "r" in Spanish.). English consonants in my opinion tend to be more guttural.

The point of this ramble is that I've been spending more time lately thinking about the choice of words with respect to their vowels and consonants in a line and how they interplay in terms of speeding up slowing down the rhythm, rather than the meter. I suppose you could say I'm a "neo-formalist" in the early stages of recovery. However, I do relapse. Perhaps it's because I like the works of Anthony Hecht, Dorothy Parker, Edna St. Vincent Millay, and (gasp!) even Dana Gioia.

As I've said before, I appreciate the way you get me thinking about poetry.

 

[HarryHill]

I'm glad you liked it, Harry, but it's not one I'd stake my reputation on. It was more play than work.

I like what Demure does with blank verse, BTW.

..
I never said that I did not. She is always kind, gentle and well ...demure, but her end of line choices (for the most part) confuse me as to why?

if you are referring to GM's Staten Island Baby...
..
nope, think this one is called 'Sister Kate'

now if you are experimenting with pentameter... knee deep in Eliot right now and all the spider webbed paths that lead from the article on Vers Libre. Kinda lost examining "the foot" as applied to stressed and unstressed
..
Descartes once said
I think I am a yam.

..
Descartes was a vegetable when he died
Blew a fuse, his brain was fried
by all that deep deep thinkin'

 

[twelveoone]

..
I never said that I did not. She is always kind, gentle and well ...demure, but her end of line choices (for the most part) confuse me as to why?


..
Descartes was a vegetable when he died
Blew a fuse, his brain was fried
by all that deep deep thinkin'

ask demure. my guess would be suppression, understatement, her? EOL supports the story

 

[twelveoone]

I perused these, 1201, and my first impression was it's hard enough to listen to what politicians have to say without measuring the milliseconds of their speech patterns. I'm sure some things in the articles are worth learning about, and I look forward to more in-depth reading of them, but they're very complex. It's going to take me more time than I have today to get something out of them. I'll comment on any "aha's" if or when I find them.

My understanding of phonetics has always been more intuitive than academic, although I studied Spanish many years ago and spoke it in my work on a daily basis. Living as close as I do to French-speaking Quebec, I've also taught myself to read that language.

I've always been impressed with how few vowel sounds there are in Spanish and how crisp most of them sound whereas in French there are so many diphthongs and even triphthongs. While both languages are melodic, I think French is more so because of this. I also think their vowels and combinations tend to soften the sound of their consonants with some exceptions (I.e., the rolling "r" in Spanish.). English consonants in my opinion tend to be more guttural.

The point of this ramble is that I've been spending more time lately thinking about the choice of words with respect to their vowels and consonants in a line and how they interplay in terms of speeding up slowing down the rhythm, rather than the meter. I suppose you could say I'm a "neo-formalist" in the early stages of recovery. However, I do relapse. Perhaps it's because I like the works of Anthony Hecht, Dorothy Parker, Edna St. Vincent Millay, and (gasp!) even Dana Gioia.

As I've said before, I appreciate the way you get me thinking about poetry.

[/B]
bear with me a moment, he analyzed audio, we are dealing with the written word, worse, we are dealing with reader interpretation of our written words. my question would be what would be the difference in word choice, word combination and just how much of a characterization a writer has to put in to push the reader in that direction, for example giuliani has a slight lisp, just how much do you out in as a writer and for what effect do you put in, there has to be at least a hint of it. You are working in that area.

as for you "spending more time lately thinking about the choice of words with respect to their vowels and consonants in a line and how they interplay in terms of speeding up slowing down the rhythm, rather than the meter."
that comforts me, I was beginning to think, I was getting a little too far out there. You know I always felt that the imposition of the metric system to English was a bit of a sham i.e In English poetry, feet are determined by emphasis rather than length, with stressed and unstressed syllables serving the same function as long and short syllables in classical metre. now this was imposed on an alliterative system? I suspect there is less variation in vowel sound than in stress. We hear sound streams, we pick out pieces. Long vowels stand out, the beginning and end of the sound stream stand out, and stress is primarily emphasis. I don't know. That is what I write to, the voice and hoping that the untrained reader picks up on the voice. It seems more fruitful than metre and writing for a highly trained and specialized reader.

as for Dana Gioia (gasp!) , I admit, have read his poetry, his writing about poetry; but that shall be our secret, eh?

 

[HarryHill]

So twelve, I'm bumping this thread too, have you come back to share your knowledge? oh, and sonnet 116
..
I sent my love a sonnet and troth
her answer was not impressed
so wille's been demoted again once more
to the bottom shelf.
..

 

[UnderYourSpell]

i'm surprised England has it
them being literary and all that

Well aren't you glad it has or you wouldn't have me? Not that you have had me .......

 

[twelveoone]

Well aren't you glad it has or you wouldn't have me? Not that you have had me .......

now of your many and sundry lovers, how can you be sure? now think back to the sundriest of all

that doesn't quite look right, does it? 'sundry' reminds me of dried fruit.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

now of your many and sundry lovers, how can you be sure? now think back to the sundriest of all

that doesn't quite look right, does it? 'sundry' reminds me of dried fruit.

I was sat here thinking what on earth is a sun driest lover? Wrinkled like a prune?
.
anyway I don't think I've bonked any Americans

 

[twelveoone]

I was sat here thinking what on earth is a sun driest lover? Wrinkled like a prune?
.
anyway I don't think I've bonked any Americans

tut, tut, I wrinkle quite nicely, go ask Nefertiti

 

[HarryHill]

tut, tut, I wrinkle quite nicely, go ask Nefertiti

That what I was telling Bendo the other day; he asked, where's Groucho. I told him you were looking for the magic word.
So what about it, Fuck Daddy?

 

[Maria2394]

Excellent points, darkmaas. Content always trumps form imho, but in a ghazal it is especially important. The form is meant for poems about unrequited love: reading some of the better ghazals will quickly reveal that.

Here is an wonderful example of the form by one of Lit's best poets (and as it has been here for many years, I'm sure she won't mind my sharing it in full). Just a beautiful ghazal~

Ghazal in ¾ Time
byCordelia©

Rendering my words into songs may, from the dance
Kiss damp orange music pulled away from the dance.

We touch as though we knew the absence of roses.
Touching again, we move in disarray from the dance.

I wipe a tear from the page where you are drawing,
Stringing lines to remove the bouquet from the dance.

Though you spoke to me of afters, not of nevers,
We move through green laughter as if we’d pray from the dance.

Overwhelmed by the frost on your kiln-fired brow,
I discern the porcelain sobriquet from the dance.

Reaching into the marigolds between us, think:
How the weather takes a holiday from the dance.

Loosen your frown, unbutton your anxieties;
Let this lover remove all dismay from the dance.

My gosh. Cordelia. Such a treasure with such talent. I miss her.

 

[Maria2394]

I remember someone saying something about 1201 walking the beaches of Jersey. Is he okay?
............................................5ed if you can find all the 1201's.....Harry
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Dear ol' 1201. He comes and goes, but he is like scabies. He gets under your skin and no amount of scratching can drive him away. He'll be back.....

 

[corndog_]

Dear ol' 1201. He comes and goes, but he is like scabies. He gets under your skin and no amount of scratching can drive him away. He'll be back.....

From the CDC site:

Institutions such as nursing homes, extended-care facilities, and prisons are often sites of scabies outbreaks.

Which are we?

 

[butters]

i see him more like an idea. an idea that's beneath the skin, causing the mind to itch, requiring us to scratch and maybe discover things.

 

[butters]

From the CDC site:
Institutions such as nursing homes, extended-care facilities, and prisons are often sites of scabies outbreaks.
Which are we?

we're the last motel....

 

[corndog_]

we're the last motel....

The one with bed bugs?