Why is it that every man . . .

[Stella_Omega]

This entire thread is like morning tea in the university staffroom. Just need someone to complain about tenure next.

And the air conditioning :nods:

 

[MagicaPractica]

Damn! Why does it take three years to get tenure???


Now, plainly, hasn't always been so in every place and culture. Your premise is incorrect. Therefore, your question is unanswerable.

 

[AchtungNight]

As someone who's written his own take on the Lillith and Cain story in the past (the title is Choices, you can find it on www.gargoyles-fans.org under fanfic writer Doug Elder) as well as a lot of religious satire and parody, I could comment greatly on this. But I won't. I don't see it as worthwhile to do so. I'm glad most people here already know women's true place in history and their value. As do I.

BTW, I too am a huge fan of Robert Henlein. Stranger in a Strange Land is my second favorite religious sci-fi satire novel of all time. (Alan Dean Foster's The I Inside is first.)

 

[Carmenica Diaz]

Damn! Why does it take three years to get tenure???

You and Stella cease that immediately, please! Can only take so much!

 

[Guest]

This entire thread is like morning tea in the university staffroom. Just need someone to complain about tenure next.

My grandpappy used to spread that stuff on his cornfield and stuff and it made half the county smell really bad but I don't know why you would be cussing it at a university unless there was a farm close by or you teach africulture and stuff.

Debbie

 

[MagicaPractica]

BTW, I too am a huge fan of Robert Henlein. Stranger in a Strange Land is my second favorite religious sci-fi satire novel of all time. (Alan Dean Foster's The I Inside is first.)[/QUOTE]

Personally, I liked Heinlein's Job a little better.

 

[Guest]

Damn! Why does it take three years to get tenure???


Now, plainly, hasn't always been so in every place and culture. Your premise is incorrect. Therefore, your question is unanswerable.

It only takes a day I think but that doesn't do much good it takes a lot of it to spread on a cornfield and stuff but maybe it takes you longer cause you don't have as many pigs and stuff.

Debbie

 

[Stella_Omega]

You and Stella cease that immediately, please! Can only take so much!

oh yes'm!

Debby, it's a SPECIAL kind of manure...
oh my gawd, that gorgeous ass!

and MagicaPractica, Job is the book I think of, everytime this subject comes up...

 

[Guest]

.....

 

[MagicaPractica]

It only takes a day I think but that doesn't do much good it takes a lot of it to spread on a cornfield and stuff but maybe it takes you longer cause you don't have as many pigs and stuff.

Debbie

Hoooo wee! I don't mind the hard stuff but that liquid tenure they spray on the fields near me is enough to turn me green! Have to keep all the windows shut tight!

 

[MagicaPractica]

Job: A Comedy of Justice was a brilliant piece of work. I have to say, though, The Cat Wo Walks Through Walls an Time Enough for Love are my faves.

Oddly enough, those are the only three of his books that I have copies of on my book case. A brother gave me the two you spoke of and I bought Job. I do love them all.

 

[Carmenica Diaz]

My grandpappy used to spread that stuff on his cornfield and stuff and it made half the county smell really bad but I don't know why you would be cussing it at a university unless there was a farm close by or you teach africulture and stuff.

Debbie

The topics in the faculty staffrooms are usually estoteric and basically meaningless. It's a fine example of competitive games in academia. So go for walks or for lunch at the village pub. Much nicer; one meets a better class of person.

 

[Liar]

Is it ok to be fully and utterly confused by this thread?

 

[Guest]

Hoooo wee! I don't mind the hard stuff but that liquid tenure they spray on the fields near me is enough to turn me green! Have to keep all the windows shut tight!

I dont turn funny colors or nothin but I has to hold my nose and stuff cause its just ickey.

Debbie

 

[Carmenica Diaz]

Is it ok to be fully and utterly confused by this thread?

Of course - just don't mention tenure.

 

[AchtungNight]

MP- Job rocks.

 

[amicus]

Heinlein fans can't be all bad, 'Time Enough for Love', is a gem...


amicus...

 

[SeaCat]

Oh me oh my what a touchy subject.

If you truly want to know why women have been pushed down so much you need to study and understand religeous history, especially the history as it relates to the early Christian Church. Once you know and understand this then you will understand the reasons behind the subjugation of women and why so many wish to continue this.

(Hint, do not ask your local Catholic Priest about this.)

This, religeon, is a subject I have studied off and on for a while. While it is interesting it is scary and more than a little sad.

Cat

 

[carsonshepherd]

Is it ok to be fully and utterly confused by this thread?

*comes in with a bad hangover, looks around and leaves*

 

[Tom Collins]

The only problem, TC, is that Lilith is not in the Bible. She's used to explain this very strange bit at the beginning of the bible about God(s) (that plural is a possiblity--it appears all over Genesis) creating "Man and Woman." It is after this that God (singular) creates Adam and Eve. Now, later, monotheistic Jews (we're talking MUCH later, like Middle Ages), had to explain what this meant and came up with the Lilith explaination. This is because the REAL explaination was not so comfortable....

The REAL explaination is that ancient Judiasm had no problem at all with believing that there were many gods. So, the GODS made heaven, earth, man and woman. But Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews, went off and created this little garden and created his own special man and woman (Adam and Eve). Snake story happens, he evicts them. They have kids, Cain kills Abel....and then goes to the Land of Nod and finds a wife.

See? That one really messed with all the Monothesits heads. THERE are people outside of Eden. That's how Cain finds a wife, and later Seth (Adam & Eve's son #3) finds a wife, and all his sons find wives. Becuase the GODS (plural) created other men and women.

Only snotty Yahweh had to have his own tribe--and this is the story of HIS particular people, decended from Adam and Eve. Namely, the Hebrews. This is why the Egyptian Priests in Egypt were able to make snakes of their staffs just like Moses. 'Cause they had gods, too. Those Egyptian got eaten up by Moses' snakes, proving Yahweh was more powerful than the gods of Egypt (neener-neener-neener!). Pharoah is a living god, and when Moses wins over him, he proves his God more powerful than the Egyptian god.

The Hebrews haven't a single problem with believing that there are other gods of other people. And Yahweh has no problem acknowledging that those other gods exist either. He just wants to make sure HIS people put HIM first. So, no golden calf (after all, what the fuck would it matter if there was only one god? Why not pray to him in the form of a calf? But it makes a LOT of sense if you remember that the Egyptians worshiped a calf as god. Now we're talking one god over another!).

That's what "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" means in the commandments. NOT "there is only one God period and it's me!" but "I come first...then you can be nice to other gods."

Long-and-short, nice as the Lilith myth is, it's just a story used by the monotheistic patriarchy to explain away that little hiccup, the one which reminds everyone that the Jews did not always believe that there was only one god in existence and that all humankind was descended from Adam and Eve...just that there was one god that they, in particular, belonged to and had to worship and that THEY were decided from Adam and Eve.

Alrighty. I can swallow that. Do you think you could site some references for that? Just the part about the origin of the Lilith myth. Believe me, I know that the Hebrews weren't always monothieistic. Because of all the points that you made about the vedry begining of Genisis and all that about the sons of Adam and Eve takeing wives "from the others". Some Jehova's Witness tried to convince me that it was their own sisters they were marrying.

 

[rgraham666]

*comes in with a bad hangover, looks around and leaves*

Damn! Why didn't I think of that?

 

[carsonshepherd]

Damn! Why didn't I think of that?

I'll get you a coffee.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

The only problem, TC, is that Lilith is not in the Bible. She's used to explain this very strange bit at the beginning of the bible about God(s) (that plural is a possiblity--it appears all over Genesis) creating "Man and Woman." It is after this that God (singular) creates Adam and Eve. Now, later, monotheistic Jews (we're talking MUCH later, like Middle Ages), had to explain what this meant and came up with the Lilith explaination. This is because the REAL explaination was not so comfortable....

The REAL explaination is that ancient Judiasm had no problem at all with believing that there were many gods. So, the GODS made heaven, earth, man and woman. But Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews, went off and created this little garden and created his own special man and woman (Adam and Eve). Snake story happens, he evicts them. They have kids, Cain kills Abel....and then goes to the Land of Nod and finds a wife.

See? That one really messed with all the Monothesits heads. THERE are people outside of Eden. That's how Cain finds a wife, and later Seth (Adam & Eve's son #3) finds a wife, and all his sons find wives. Becuase the GODS (plural) created other men and women.

Only snotty Yahweh had to have his own tribe--and this is the story of HIS particular people, decended from Adam and Eve. Namely, the Hebrews. This is why the Egyptian Priests in Egypt were able to make snakes of their staffs just like Moses. 'Cause they had gods, too. Those Egyptian got eaten up by Moses' snakes, proving Yahweh was more powerful than the gods of Egypt (neener-neener-neener!). Pharoah is a living god, and when Moses wins over him, he proves his God more powerful than the Egyptian god.

The Hebrews haven't a single problem with believing that there are other gods of other people. And Yahweh has no problem acknowledging that those other gods exist either. He just wants to make sure HIS people put HIM first. So, no golden calf (after all, what the fuck would it matter if there was only one god? Why not pray to him in the form of a calf? But it makes a LOT of sense if you remember that the Egyptians worshiped a calf as god. Now we're talking one god over another!).

That's what "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" means in the commandments. NOT "there is only one God period and it's me!" but "I come first...then you can be nice to other gods."

Long-and-short, nice as the Lilith myth is, it's just a story used by the monotheistic patriarchy to explain away that little hiccup, the one which reminds everyone that the Jews did not always believe that there was only one god in existence and that all humankind was descended from Adam and Eve...just that there was one god that they, in particular, belonged to and had to worship and that THEY were decided from Adam and Eve.

This is my understanding of the sequence....first, there were nomadic hunter-gatherers, neither matriarchal nor patriarchal as such. Then some became farmers and more inclined to matriarchy, while others favored herding livestock and were disposed to patriarchy. That's not universal (witness the patriarchal Roman farmers, for instance), but it is a common enough reality. When these patriarchal warrior-herdsmen overran the matriarchal agrarian societies (Crete among them), they usually intermarried with the natives and produced a more balanced, hybrid religion (such as Greek polytheism).

The Hebrews were an exception. Perhaps as a reaction to the agrarian, matriarchal culture of Egypt, they turned militant and determined to eradicate such cultures. They didn't practice genocide, but certainly killed, enslaved, and assimilated enough people to eventually overtake Canaanite cults such as Astaroth. Monotheism somewhere emerged to ensure the obliteration of such cults.

Most societies, on the other hand, embraced the divine paradox of equally divine masculine and feminine principles. Note that I say equally. Each god represents an aspect of Nature. Some are masculine, some feminine. Both are equally valid.

Oh, and at the risk of plugging a series, I find your understanding of things interesting, 3113, since I have Lilith emerge as a character in my series "Aunt Lilith". It's admittedly a work of fiction, but a rather complex, mythological one.

Oh, and I don't mean anything anti-Semitic by my remarks. Just for clarity's sake.

 

[Tom Collins]

Heinlein fans can't be all bad, 'Time Enough for Love', is a gem...


amicus...

Dear GOD!!!

Now one of us has to die. I cannot accept that we share an opinion on anything.

No doubt he loves him for the same reason so many people hate him.

 

[Halo_n_horns]

Since time immemorial, men have always been considered the predominant sex, perfection, if you will, sexually, as well as every other way, and women . . . well, inferior?

From antiquity, Ariistotle and before (the bible even says Eve was made from a rib taken from Adam), males were males because they had sufficient "heat." Women were women because they lacked enough of this heat that it took to make men (ergo: inferior). Galen said:

"Now just as mankind is the most perfect of all animals, so within mankind, the man is more perfect than the woman, and the reason for his perfection is his excess heat, for heat is Nature's primary instrument."

On occasion, a woman could get too hot, and it caused her to become a man! Such was said to be a servant of France's King Charles IX.

Girls were admonished not to stretch their legs too far for fear of becoming a boy (you see, it was thought that since there was insufficient heat in women, the penis didn't drop, and thus the vagina was created -- it is an inverted penis).

Women were also said to produce semen (all that is a man is inverted in a woman, don't you see, though less so). Galen went on to say:

"Forthwith of course the female must have smaller, less perfect testes, and the semen generated in them must be scantier, colder and wetter (for these things too follow of necessity from the deficent heat)."

Women were ever like sexual vampires. De Secretis Mulierum (Women's Secrets), a medieval medical compendium still popular in the eighteenth century, warns:

"The more women have sexual intercourse, the stronger they become, because they are made hot by the motion that the man makes during coitus [well, they got that part right]. Further, male sperm is hot because it is of the sme nature as air and when it is received by the woman it warms her entire body, so women are strengthened by this heat. On the other hand,men who have sex frequently are weakened by this act because they become exceedingly dried out."

Other than that Eve was made by taking one of Adam's ribs, I won't go into what religion(s) say, other than as one preacher was recently said to have quoted, "Women are to remain silent in the church," or something like that, and dismissed a Sunday school teacher just for being a woman, never mind that she had taught for many decades.

Oh, and remember Liar's thread on how a woman should behave toward, and for her husband (whose problems were much greater than hers, etc.)?

Okay, so why is it that every man is first a woman ? Why is evey man ever made a woman first?

PW/OC.

I know I only read the first handful of posts following yours, its unfortunate that several, perhaps more, could not get what you were after.

Man as a gender has a great ego, a fragile ego. Man, as a gender, has historically had a great thirst for control over others. Women are at the top of the list. Next, it seems, would be nations other than their own. You're doing quite a bit of Biblical quoting, even from the writs of De Secretis Mulierum you will find easily recognizable religious overtones.

In truth womankind is no less or more inferior than mankind in terms of gender strengths and weaknesses. Its just that the strengths and weaknesses are different from gender to gender.

All that other crap is just what "the man" would like you to believe.