You can't handle the truth! Or can you?

[satindesire]

LOL.

I had to learn to communicate properly with the men in my life. I wouldn't necessarily ask for advice but I would bring up things that were bothering me. Thankfully, I learned quickly that men tend to be solution-oriented and thus, I would preface my speech with, "I don't need an answer or solution to what I'm about to tell you, I just want to talk it out so that I can understand the problem better."

I was astounded how well that worked! He doesn't feel frustrated that I won't take his suggested solutions and I don't feel frustrated that he keeps trying to solve my problems for me, and I get a sounding board to help solidify my ideas. Win, win, win.

I think all women need to do this. It would resolve SO many communication issues and frustrations in relationships.

Men (generally) are doers, not listeners. But you can turn them into a listener because in telling them the bolded part, they learn that listening IS doing and feel like they have helped you, and so do you.

It's really that easy. I often find myself frustrated by the simplicity of this logic that many women do not 'get'.

 

[Recidiva]

I think all women need to do this. It would resolve SO many communication issues and frustrations in relationships.

Men (generally) are doers, not listeners. But you can turn them into a listener because in telling them the bolded part, they learn that listening IS doing and feel like they have helped you, and so do you.

It's really that easy. I often find myself frustrated by the simplicity of this logic that many women do not 'get'.

Both genders can be good listeners without being good believers. Sometimes the way other people's minds work is incomprehensible. It actually takes faith instead of aghast disbelief.

 

[satindesire]

Both genders can be good listeners without being good believers. Sometimes the way other people's minds work is incomprehensible. It actually takes faith instead of aghast disbelief.

I'm sorry, you lost me sweetie.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm sorry, you lost me sweetie.

*starts to giggle*

There's always a line from Simpsons where Lisa is being treated like an idiot by an adult.

"I have a ball. Perhaps you would like to bounce it."

I'm afraid it always leaps to mind when I should be thinking of something more original, but I can't help it.

 

[satindesire]

*starts to giggle*

There's always a line from Simpsons where Lisa is being treated like an idiot by an adult.

"I have a ball. Perhaps you would like to bounce it."

I'm afraid it always leaps to mind when I should be thinking of something more original, but I can't help it.

I meant to say, I didn't understand what you meant by your message to me. Can you clarify for me please? That was way over my head...and forgive me for that, I didn't sleep last night.

 

[Recidiva]

I meant to say, I didn't understand what you meant by your message to me. Can you clarify for me please? That was way over my head...and forgive me for that, I didn't sleep last night.

Oh, sorry, I thought you were being ironic and were being disbelieving.

Take a simple example: I'm an introvert (Myers Briggs type) which means that I really DO manage to be very happy alone.

An extroverted type of person giving me social advice will give me advice that would work for their temperament, but not mine. "Get back out there! Go to a club, go to a bar, put yourself OUT there!"

That's the advice I get - and for me it's dead wrong. It'd work for the person giving it, and they think they're giving me gems of truth.

But they're giving me exactly what would make me the most crazy and unable to handle life in general.

Gender and temperament and personality all have their own little quirks like that - do you like to say "I love you" all day long or do you like to be reserved? Do you like to shop, do you like to use power tools, do you like...?

I came at this backward because most of the advice given to me is wrong for my personality types. It took me a long time into adulthood to meet people like me or realize I'm not just "wrong" in lots of social ways.

It took me lots of relationships with men and asking them frankly and "Really?" before I had faith in some of the male mechanics I try to respect.

Many well meaning people think everyone is like them and should be like them and could be like them if they just tried and they give advice accordingly. GOOD advice though is tailored to the person who is getting it, not just the person giving it.

The faith in those differences comes from really getting to know someone well and believing those essential differences in personality and not trying to ignore them in favor of one's own needs and experiences.

 

[Keroin]

I really want to answer every response but I have a story to work on today. So...

This is a gender bias that drives me insane. I can listen to problems. I can commiserate. I cannot stand idly by and allow problems to fester. I appreciate your honesty here, but, in my life, I would rather the woman saying this to me would just go talk to a woman that would listen and not try to fix. And I don't mean that in a rude way! I am just very much a fixer.

I completely understand your point of view. I also wish men would just go to the farking doctor when they have a problem instead of "toughing it out" for two years and letting it become something serious...but I digress. (Playful joke, BTW).

I don't inflict this womanly behaviour on all men, just my SO, and even then, it's infrequent. But this has proven to be the way I solve problems or deal with stress most effectively. It's not so much about bitching and ranting - although those are elements - it's about working through all the bits and pieces until I can see patterns and I begin to get a feeling about how I'd like to handle things. Luckily, Chuck is an amazing listener and is far less of a problem solver type than me.

I think opinions/comments, while often asked for, get lost against the person inside knowledge.

People have so much more going on in their head, that what we say only concerns the surface, and hence opinions can often seem superficial, or under informed, or whatever. Problem with writing is its all superficial, those thoughts the author has that make the writing good just aren’t on the page.

Not sure if that makes sense, feeling incoherent.

One way to solve this issue may be to finish, send it in for comments, and don’t ever look at it or the comments until all is forgotten. Then take it out and edit.


When it comes to other things its more difficult.

Like those habits that they think are the shit but are just annoying as fuck. The ones that hit with the "pang" of Ive been doing that for the last 5 years.

I think one of the problems with critiquing writers is that they often can't separate their work from themselves. They take legitimate story criticism and funnel it inwards, translating it as a personal criticism. Unfortunately, no matter how brilliant your ideas may be, if you don't express them coherently or in a way that engages the reader then they aren't effective.

You've got loads of good advice above from wiser heads than mine, so I have a practical suggestion re: your copy editor friend. It sounds like maybe she has a touch of the hero worship going on, so it's understandable that she might be a little crushed when you don't come back with "it's perfect, don't change a word!" This go around, perhaps ask her to tell you exactly what she's looking for from your feedback before you begin. Let her choose her level of editorial pain. Maybe she's really just looking for an attaboy from someone she admires.

Thanks Cyn. I should have prefaced that I wasn't really look for advice, just venting...LOL. This time around, I'm going to give her the same kind of feedback I always do but I'm not going to attach myself to her response. I'm going to try to let go of my expectations and just let her be. If she chooses not to listen, well, that's beyond my control. She is an excellent copy editor and a good friend and I'm going to keep those thoughts top of mind as I work.

This was not about the usual she wants an ear and he wants to fix things dynamic. They were always legitimate calls for help. This was always a case of "I'm stumped over how to handle X circumstance in my ABC class; what would you do in this situation?" and then she would never take the suggestion.

So while I recognize that the ear vs. fix-it dynamic is common, it's not universal.

Hm, gotcha.

Yeah, that would be annoying as fuck.

 

[Cattypuss]

GOOD advice though is tailored to the person who is getting it, not just the person giving it.

Very well said.

 

[Netzach]

You're friends?

She may be looking for positive feedback from you. Based on that. I don't necessarily want the kind of crit I got in college from M, but it's what I get.

If she's incorporating *any* of your suggestions at all, obviously she finds your critique valuable. I don't get critique to overhaul everything, but to add things I may be missing and to get some perspective.

Honestly?

I think it's equally as ego driven to expect her to do *most* of what you suggest as it is for her to ask for positive strokes in the guise of critique. You guys are probably just not paired up well for this activity. No shame in that.

Also, generally, in life, I’ve found that people will frequently ask for advice only to then, once the advice is given, offer a hundred reasons why the advice cannot be applied or pay lip service to the advice and then ignore it.

Why is this?

THIS however is one of those million dollar questions. Ugh.

 

[Keroin]

You're friends?

She may be looking for positive feedback from you. Based on that. I don't necessarily want the kind of crit I got in college from M, but it's what I get.

If she's incorporating *any* of your suggestions at all, obviously she finds your critique valuable. I don't get critique to overhaul everything, but to add things I may be missing and to get some perspective.

Honestly?

I think it's equally as ego driven to expect her to do *most* of what you suggest as it is for her to ask for positive strokes in the guise of critique. You guys are probably just not paired up well for this activity. No shame in that.



THIS however is one of those million dollar questions. Ugh. LOL

We became friends through the writing group I joined several years ago.

From a technical (grammar, etc), standpoint, H's writing is nearly flawless but her style is rigid, plodding and lacks voice. Also, she tends to write only thinly veiled auto-bio's because she says she finds it almost impossible to put herself into the minds of other people. She has expressed genuine and repeated frustration about this and has asked for my help and input on numerous occasions.

The disconnect here is that she comes to me for stylistic advice but the only suggestions she ever uses, (the 5% I refer to), are purely technical ones - overuse of a certain word, for example.

It's the constant contradiction that gets to me. She says she wants to work on changing and improving her style and yet when I make suggestions she says, "Well, I don't want to change that because that's my style." Ugh. It's like going to a garage for a tire change then saying, "Oh but don't change the tires, I like them how they are."

And for the upcoming work, this is a prescribed type of editing. Each member of the group chooses two other members to do indepth editing on the piece(s) they will submit to the book. So, she may, at times, be looking for praise - which I frequently offer, BTW - but for this annual event that shouldn't be the case.

Like I said, this year I'm just going to release my expectations and hopefully that will make for a happier time. She really is a sweetheart and I wish I was better able to help her. Again, I think I'm just not cut out to be a teacher.

 

[Homburg]

Both genders can be good listeners without being good believers. Sometimes the way other people's minds work is incomprehensible. It actually takes faith instead of aghast disbelief.

In other words, that moment when you think, "He can't possibly be this blind. He can't be thinking this. It's obvious." This is the hardest thing for me to process. What is obvious to me, may be inobvious as hell to someone else, or even entirely incorrect.

--

I completely understand your point of view. I also wish men would just go to the farking doctor when they have a problem instead of "toughing it out" for two years and letting it become something serious...but I digress. (Playful joke, BTW).

Here's a basic flowchart:

1) Am I bleeding?

No - Okay, I'm fine. Shake it off. Continue as before.

Yes - Apply bandage, pressure, etc. Shake it off. Continue on as before.

Done.

I don't inflict this womanly behaviour on all men, just my SO, and even then, it's infrequent. But this has proven to be the way I solve problems or deal with stress most effectively. It's not so much about bitching and ranting - although those are elements - it's about working through all the bits and pieces until I can see patterns and I begin to get a feeling about how I'd like to handle things. Luckily, Chuck is an amazing listener and is far less of a problem solver type than me.

Well, as I said before, the ranting actually makes it easier for me to process without having to hammer the problem into goo. As to how good of a listener I am, I can't judge that. I'll leave that sort of commentary to others.

I think one of the problems with critiquing writers is that they often can't separate their work from themselves. They take legitimate story criticism and funnel it inwards, translating it as a personal criticism. Unfortunately, no matter how brilliant your ideas may be, if you don't express them coherently or in a way that engages the reader then they aren't effective.

I faced this recently with a small project that was part of. Wow, the person for whom I was having to edit did NOT take it well. Unfortunately, as a group effort, it HAD to be edited to be compliant with the project. And it was, as this person eventually admitted, a case of being unable to separate self from work.

 

[Recidiva]

In other words, that moment when you think, "He can't possibly be this blind. He can't be thinking this. It's obvious." This is the hardest thing for me to process. What is obvious to me, may be inobvious as hell to someone else, or even entirely incorrect.

Yes, there are several layers to this, and it all came down to faith and trust.

Lots of people lie, and most of my life I thought they were lying to me and I took it personally. It took me a while to realize people lie to themselves first and it's not about me. Sometimes it's ignorance and pride and denial and it's not me being played or manipulated. I learned to be careful about helping people lift their own internal veils without doing a Don Quixote and shoving them in front of a mirror. Then I can also objectively look at my own internal veils and be gentle with myself without condemning myself to hell for not being the most insightful person on the Earth.

I think when I read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" that I really made a project of it and asked several men that I trusted very pointed questions about all the stuff in that book that seemed entirely counterintuitive to me but most guys said "Sounds exactly right and that book was written about me." Without that confirmation I would have tossed the book as total bullshit because to me, thinking like that's just not possible.

So I had to get out of my own head and my own ego before I learned to listen. And listening is hard because I really have to care in order to get that far out of my own skin without wanting to snap back into my point of view where it's safe and comfy and so obviously right.

 

[Keroin]

Here's a basic flowchart:

1) Am I bleeding?

No - Okay, I'm fine. Shake it off. Continue as before.

Yes - Apply bandage, pressure, etc. Shake it off. Continue on as before.

Done.

LOL. Well, you know I'm not one to go running to mommy for every little cut and scrape but I think there's a good chance that if your ear infection hasn't gotten better on its own...after five months...then a doctor's visit is probably in order. (Refraining from naming names on the off chance the male in question ever reads this).

I faced this recently with a small project that was part of. Wow, the person for whom I was having to edit did NOT take it well. Unfortunately, as a group effort, it HAD to be edited to be compliant with the project. And it was, as this person eventually admitted, a case of being unable to separate self from work.

I can only recall two defensive reactions I've ever had to critiques of my writing - in one case I was right and in the other I was wrong. I've learned to give more weight to "who" is doing the critiquing than to their words because, in the case where I was wrong, the person in question was someone who is very talented and whose opinion I respect.

I suspect there is a very subconscious self-defense mechanism going on when people respond so poorly to this kind of critique. My experience has been that the less skill the person has, the more likely they are to freak out or get defensive or sulk. It could be the mind's way of protecting them from what they know, on some level, is true.

 

[Recidiva]

I can only recall two defensive reactions I've ever had to critiques of my writing - in one case I was right and in the other I was wrong. I've learned to give more weight to "who" is doing the critiquing than to their words because, in the case where I was wrong, the person in question was someone who is very talented and whose opinion I respect.

I suspect there is a very subconscious self-defense mechanism going on when people respond so poorly to this kind of critique. My experience has been that the less skill the person has, the more likely they are to freak out or get defensive or sulk. It could be the mind's way of protecting them from what they know, on some level, is true.

I had one person on this site start a thread about how sucky editors were and how long he's had to wait for a volunteer editor, so I offered to help.

By the second paragraph I was disgusted by the number of simple errors that could have just been picked up by spell check that I bumped it back and told him that if he was going to try to get sympathy about someone's work ethic lacking, they should have one of their own. I was actually offended. I asked them to please run it through spell check and get the basic spelling and grammar stuff handled before I looked at it again.

I was told that I was basically an elitist bitch who just offered to help so I could kick him to the curb for my own egotistical reasons.

There are lots of people who think that heart and drive and "wanting" something compensates somehow and negates the need for craft and work and integrity.

I put him on ignore, problem solved.

 

[Keroin]

I had one person on this site start a thread about how sucky editors were and how long he's had to wait for a volunteer editor, so I offered to help.

By the second paragraph I was disgusted by the number of simple errors that could have just been picked up by spell check that I bumped it back and told him that if he was going to try to get sympathy about someone's work ethic lacking, they should have one of their own. I was actually offended. I asked them to please run it through spell check and get the basic spelling and grammar stuff handled before I looked at it again.

I was told that I was basically an elitist bitch who just offered to help so I could kick him to the curb for my own egotistical reasons.

There are lots of people who think that heart and drive and "wanting" something compensates somehow and negates the need for craft and work and integrity.

I put him on ignore, problem solved.

My esteem for you grows. And what a twonk that person sounds like. A twonk, mind you, who seems to prove my theory correct.

I often participate in the story discussion thread because the moderators require people to contribute to other discussions before they allow them to submit their story for discussion - this seems to weed out most of the types you describe above. But the latest fellow is an exception. He posted this: "So I’m looking for honest feedback, I tend to get a lot of smoke blowing, and great, and awesome. But I have not had a good critique for my work yet."

Uh huh.

So far, his responses to the critiques offered have been long-winded-excuse after long-winded-excuse.

Makes my brain hurt.

 

[Recidiva]

My esteem for you grows. And what a twonk that person sounds like. A twonk, mind you, who seems to prove my theory correct.

I often participate in the story discussion thread because the moderators require people to contribute to other discussions before they allow them to submit their story for discussion - this seems to weed out most of the types you describe above. But the latest fellow is an exception. He posted this: "So I’m looking for honest feedback, I tend to get a lot of smoke blowing, and great, and awesome. But I have not had a good critique for my work yet."

Uh huh.

So far, his responses to the critiques offered have been long-winded-excuse after long-winded-excuse.

Makes my brain hurt.

And I've been sucked in several times by the "Gosh, I'm so helpless and I try so hard, someone please help me!"

It's kinda like being a lifeguard and swimming out just to have someone try to drown you with their flailing.

Fortunately not being a successful author doesn't mean they'll die. And it might save some readers a lot of grief.

It was surprising and kinda shocking the first few times, now I only rarely offer to help and my experience with close friends can be even worse than those who are just random cries for help.

 

[midwestyankee]

Here's a basic flowchart:

1) Am I bleeding?

No - Okay, I'm fine. Shake it off. Continue as before.

Yes - Apply bandage, pressure, etc. Shake it off. Continue on as before.

Done.

So how well do you think this flowchart will help you with heart disease or cancer?

 

[ZRT]

So how well do you think this flowchart will help you with heart disease or cancer?

I follow the same basic pattern.

But I also take meds for my high blood pressure.

It's not a universal thing.

 

[Netzach]

So how well do you think this flowchart will help you with heart disease or cancer?

Works great on enteric ruptures.

Oh damn, wait, no dick here.

 

[satindesire]

This is why I only edit for my mother. She actually respects my opinions a lot, even if she doesn't always take my advice.

 

[Cattypuss]

I am on both sides of the writing/editing fence in my job (more on the editing side lately but I may swing back more to writing again in the future).

Good thing about when you're all doing it as your salaried day-job is that you all just get on with it. Not so much ego involved. I give criticism and it's received graciously and gratefully and taken on board, and the same applies when I receive criticism.

Very different though - we're all just trying to get a good book ready for publication by the publication deadline - feels like a team effort with one common goal (you'll have guessed by now that these are not novels we're publishing.... I can't imagine a world of novels with no egos lol).

 

[Homburg]

So how well do you think this flowchart will help you with heart disease or cancer?

You, my good man, are taking things far too seriously.