you guys will hate me....

[Zergplex]

Zergplex Says

No thats not what Im saying.

But facts are facts. You are in a relationship with a man. I am in a relationship with a woman. You can marry the person you love and I cant. Maybe if you were in my shoes you might feel different on the law.

Well I am on the same line as Luna, I am bisexual but currently dating a female. I actually think people like us have a bit more of a view of whats being lost then those with the same sex right now. Why you ask? Because with CG I can marry her, but my feeling would be the same if she were a man, and that slight change could have had drastic consquences. I can see exactly what we are going to lose because if I switched to dating a male I would be losing it. I had just as good a chance of being with either a man or a women, and the fact that I'm with a women was just luck. We can still understand how you feel, better then you might know. I was very much for gay marriage before dating CG, but now that I have the rights I feel even stronger about them, knowing some who deserve it don't have it and that if I dated someone else I never will have them the way things look. Sorry if thats disjointed, gotta hurry to get to work. I'll check back at 4.

-Zergplex

 

[Queersetti]

I looked back at Silverluna's posts and I didn't see anything saying she is against gay marriage. In fact much of what she said was in support of it (specifically her comments to Etoile). I agree with her views on legitimacy for the SF licences. They are just symbolic, and that is important. No one says you can't get married. The say you can't get married and get legal benefits. There are many priests who will perform the ceremony, and the SF licences don't give you any legal benefits either. Not just yet. So I don't see what you mean about her feeling differently about the law. I know I am not her, but I feel that it is appropriate that I defend her to some extent here. So she isn't with a woman right now, I still think given the previous experience she spoke of earlier that she can indeed understand how you feel as well as anyone other than you can possibly understand how you feel. You may not mean too, but it seems like you are writting off her opinion, and from her posts here I do not believe she deserves that.

I don't think anyone here is arguing against gay marriage, what is at issue is how to achieve it.

In that light I do think MzChrista makes a very valid point, those who are most immediately effected by the issue are going to be more likely to support bolder measures than those for whom the issue is somewhat more distant.

 

[Queersetti]

Re: Zergplex Says

Well I am on the same line as Luna, I am bisexual but currently dating a female. I actually think people like us have a bit more of a view of whats being lost then those with the same sex right now. Why you ask? Because with CG I can marry her, but my feeling would be the same if she were a man, and that slight change could have had drastic consquences. I can see exactly what we are going to lose because if I switched to dating a male I would be losing it. I had just as good a chance of being with either a man or a women, and the fact that I'm with a women was just luck. We can still understand how you feel, better then you might know. I was very much for gay marriage before dating CG, but now that I have the rights I feel even stronger about them, knowing some who deserve it don't have it and that if I dated someone else I never will have them the way things look. Sorry if thats disjointed, gotta hurry to get to work. I'll check back at 4.
-Zergplex

I appreciate the sentiments of your post, but I am not convinced your logic holds up.

With all respect to you and other bisexuals, the fact is, you don't know what it's like to be gay, just as those of us who are gay don't really understand what it is like to be bi.

Even were you to marry a man, you would still be a bi man in a relationship with a man, and the option to bail out and find a more socially acceptable relationship would still be available to you. Basically, it's as if we were all in a plane together over enemy territory. We are all on the same side, none of us want the plane to be shot down, but some of us have parachutes and some of us do not.

 

[oh21]

Re: Re: Zergplex Says

I appreciate the sentiments of your post, but I am not convinced your logic holds up.

With all respect to you and other bisexuals, the fact is, you don't know what it's like to be gay, just as those of us who are gay don't really understand what it is like to be bi.

Even were you to marry a man, you would still be a bi man in a relationship with a man, and the option to bail out and find a more socially acceptable relationship would still be available to you. Basically, it's as if we were all in a plane together over enemy territory. We are all on the same side, none of us want the plane to be shot down, but some of us have parachutes and some of us do not.

Hi Q, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I'm not sure what the opinions are where you are located, but in the rural south there seems to be an air of "once fag, always fag." Anyone who has ever been known to be in a same sex relationship is pretty much marred for life.

The only redemption seems to be if you give up all sex and join a Baptist seminary and then they claim you were healed or that there was some miracle, but barring that, there is no redemption here purely because you currently happen to be with a woman.

 

[Rhys]

Re: Re: Zergplex Says

I appreciate the sentiments of your post, but I am not convinced your logic holds up.

With all respect to you and other bisexuals, the fact is, you don't know what it's like to be gay, just as those of us who are gay don't really understand what it is like to be bi.

Even were you to marry a man, you would still be a bi man in a relationship with a man, and the option to bail out and find a more socially acceptable relationship would still be available to you. Basically, it's as if we were all in a plane together over enemy territory. We are all on the same side, none of us want the plane to be shot down, but some of us have parachutes and some of us do not.

In some parts of the Universe, mainly the deep south, Q, the concept of bisexual, just means Gay. If a bisexual man is in a homosexual relationship, he's gay. period. So, the point I am making is that there some people in the world that don't split the hairs that fine. Hell, I can think of some Australian nationals that don't split the hairs that fine. Yes, maybe I have that option, but who is to say as bisexual man in a homosexual relationship, that I will take that option.

An unfortunate lot of bisexual men are users. Let's call it what it is and get it over with. They just do as they see fit, and so what if they break hearts on all sides. We have *ALL* had a run in with an individual of that persuasion some time in our lives. I see your point about some of us having parachutes, but, in reality, that parachute may in the end have a lot of holes, or not be something we are even interested in. In some places, more backward than others, the parachute is not an option.

 

[Adrenaline]

Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

Hi Q, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I'm not sure what the opinions are where you are located, but in the rural south there seems to be an air of "once fag, always fag." Anyone who has ever been known to be in a same sex relationship is pretty much marred for life.

The only redemption seems to be if you give up all sex and join a Baptist seminary and then they claim you were healed or that there was some miracle, but barring that, there is no redemption here purely because you currently happen to be with a woman.

Hmmmm...well I am a straight gal looking but I think that Q has a valid point. It is true that being bi is viewed in many areas with the same stigma as homosexuality. However I think that Q's point is that, in being bi, there is always the possibility that one may fall in love with someone of the opposite sex and be able to marry and have all the benefits there of. That option and that possibility is not there for homosexuals.

After all even if homosexual marriage is legalized in the US it will not magically eradicate the stigma some people may still associate with it, so that's neither here nor there IMO. Edit: After reading Rhy's posts I feel the need to emphasize that I'm not arguing about who is faced with more prejudice: Gays or bi's.

 

[Silverluna]

Thanks for your comments...Q I might not be gay but I do have a general idea what its like to love your same gender....Keyword General....


I do have a lot at stake here...Sorry I'm a bit fuzzy headed right now....its been a long night....

 

[Queersetti]

Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

Hi Q, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I'm not sure what the opinions are where you are located, but in the rural south there seems to be an air of "once fag, always fag." Anyone who has ever been known to be in a same sex relationship is pretty much marred for life.

The only redemption seems to be if you give up all sex and join a Baptist seminary and then they claim you were healed or that there was some miracle, but barring that, there is no redemption here purely because you currently happen to be with a woman.

I live in northern New England where the general attitude is if you don't scare away the fish what you do is your own business. But I appreciate your comments, and Rhys'. I would counter, however, by pointing out that you can, if you feel the need, move to New York or San Francisco, or Vancouver, so the prejudices that are prevalent in your particular area don't change the basic argument.

I believe in queer solidarity, I think our commonalities far outweigh our differences, but I do think that we ought to acknowledge and respect that there are differences in how we will see things. I'm glad to see that this subject, which can be very inflammatory, is being discussed with politesse and respect.

 

[Queersetti]

Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

In some parts of the Universe, mainly the deep south, Q, the concept of bisexual, just means Gay. If a bisexual man is in a homosexual relationship, he's gay. period. So, the point I am making is that there some people in the world that don't split the hairs that fine. Hell, I can think of some Australian nationals that don't split the hairs that fine. Yes, maybe I have that option, but who is to say as bisexual man in a homosexual relationship, that I will take that option.

An unfortunate lot of bisexual men are users. Let's call it what it is and get it over with. They just do as they see fit, and so what if they break hearts on all sides. We have *ALL* had a run in with an individual of that persuasion some time in our lives. I see your point about some of us having parachutes, but, in reality, that parachute may in the end have a lot of holes, or not be something we are even interested in. In some places, more backward than others, the parachute is not an option.

I remember a quote I read once from a man who was active in the gay community in Berlin in the 1930s. When Hitler cracked down, he said, the bisexuals went home, the homosexuals went to the camps. Admittedly, that is an extreme example, but I think it illustrates the fear that some gays have that many bisexuals will prove to be fair weather friends if things ever get really dicey.

I am not pushing that point of view, and I don't think MzChrista was either, but it is a subtext that I think we all ought to be aware of when discussing this issue.

 

[Queersetti]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

Hmmmm...well I am a straight gal looking but I think that Q has a valid point. It is true that being bi is viewed in many areas with the same stigma as homosexuality. However I think that Q's point is that, in being bi, there is always the possibility that one may fall in love with someone of the opposite sex and be able to marry and have all the benefits there of. That option and that possibility is not there for homosexuals.

After all even if homosexual marriage is legalized in the US it will not magically eradicate the stigma some people may still associate with it, so that's neither here nor there IMO. Edit: After reading Rhy's posts I feel the need to emphasize that I'm not arguing about who is faced with more prejudice: Gays or bi's.

I think we ought to all be able to agree that arguing over who faces more prejudice, bis or gays, is pointless and counter productive. Each group faces their own unique circumstances, and within each group, there are further differences based on gender, age, class, location, etc.

 

[Pookie]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

I think we ought to all be able to agree that arguing over who faces more prejudice, bis or gays, is pointless and counter productive. Each group faces their own unique circumstances, and within each group, there are further differences based on gender, age, class, location, etc.

I understand what you're saying. I'm bisexual ... and I'm married. You can't get married to anyone you may fall in love with. I guess I could say that I had at least a 50/50 chance at being able to marry the person I wanted to be my life partner. The "institution of marriage" wasn't a completely closed door for me.

 

[Rhys]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

I think we ought to all be able to agree that arguing over who faces more prejudice, bis or gays, is pointless and counter productive. Each group faces their own unique circumstances, and within each group, there are further differences based on gender, age, class, location, etc.

And this is very true. For myself, the parachute is rainbow coloured.

 

[Cigan]

Re: Re: Zergplex Says

I appreciate the sentiments of your post, but I am not convinced your logic holds up.

With all respect to you and other bisexuals, the fact is, you don't know what it's like to be gay, just as those of us who are gay don't really understand what it is like to be bi.

Even were you to marry a man, you would still be a bi man in a relationship with a man, and the option to bail out and find a more socially acceptable relationship would still be available to you. Basically, it's as if we were all in a plane together over enemy territory. We are all on the same side, none of us want the plane to be shot down, but some of us have parachutes and some of us do not.

You know I find this conversation to be mind boggling. Considering how recenty the concept of "being gay" or "being bi" is historically. It really is a manifestation of the last hundred years. Before that each culture dealt with the phenomenon of people being attracted to the same gender differently, but with the exception of some Native American tribes you were not identified as "being" something different. Dr. Kinsey did extensive research on human sexuality and the percentage of the poulation which is 100% GAY or STRAIGHT is less than 1%. Almost everyone falls somewhere in the middle, though most have a definative preference. There was a period of my life where I did fall for one or two females. And I fell hard. It was a deep emotional attachment, but when sexuality came into the picture nothing worked as well. But I do know what it is like to feel that way about someone, and to say that someone who is bi doesn't understand, or that it effects them less is to make their homosexual loves seem insignificant. You do not have to be something to empathize with it. Empathy on it's deepest level is part of being human, and I have to say that I feel it is unjust and a touch condecending to tell the bi people on this board that it's nice they feel the way they do, but they really don't understand. I know if someone were to say that to me I would feel very hurt and not want to take part in the community from which I had been told that. And I definately don't want any of them to feel that way about this board.

 

[MzChrista]

I looked back at Silverluna's posts and I didn't see anything saying she is against gay marriage. In fact much of what she said was in support of it (specifically her comments to Etoile). I agree with her views on legitimacy for the SF licences. They are just symbolic, and that is important. No one says you can't get married. The say you can't get married and get legal benefits. There are many priests who will perform the ceremony, and the SF licences don't give you any legal benefits either. Not just yet. So I don't see what you mean about her feeling differently about the law. I know I am not her, but I feel that it is appropriate that I defend her to some extent here. So she isn't with a woman right now, I still think given the previous experience she spoke of earlier that she can indeed understand how you feel as well as anyone other than you can possibly understand how you feel. You may not mean too, but it seems like you are writting off her opinion, and from her posts here I do not believe she deserves that.

I never said she was against gay marriage. I said that if she was being personally effected by the issue she might change her mind about how much people ought to be willing to push in order to get change.

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Zergplex Says

Well I am on the same line as Luna, I am bisexual but currently dating a female. I actually think people like us have a bit more of a view of whats being lost then those with the same sex right now. Why you ask? Because with CG I can marry her, but my feeling would be the same if she were a man, and that slight change could have had drastic consquences. I can see exactly what we are going to lose because if I switched to dating a male I would be losing it. I had just as good a chance of being with either a man or a women, and the fact that I'm with a women was just luck. We can still understand how you feel, better then you might know. I was very much for gay marriage before dating CG, but now that I have the rights I feel even stronger about them, knowing some who deserve it don't have it and that if I dated someone else I never will have them the way things look. Sorry if thats disjointed, gotta hurry to get to work. I'll check back at 4. Please direct all flaming replies to webmaster@lance-erotica.com .

-Zergplex

Isnt that like saying rich people know more about how shitty it is to be poor than poor people do because they know what poor people are missing?

 

[MzChrista]

I don't think anyone here is arguing against gay marriage, what is at issue is how to achieve it.

In that light I do think MzChrista makes a very valid point, those who are most immediately effected by the issue are going to be more likely to support bolder measures than those for whom the issue is somewhat more distant.

Thats me. Bold.

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

I remember a quote I read once from a man who was active in the gay community in Berlin in the 1930s. When Hitler cracked down, he said, the bisexuals went home, the homosexuals went to the camps. Admittedly, that is an extreme example, but I think it illustrates the fear that some gays have that many bisexuals will prove to be fair weather friends if things ever get really dicey.

I am not pushing that point of view, and I don't think MzChrista was either, but it is a subtext that I think we all ought to be aware of when discussing this issue.

Nope I wasnt saying that at all. I think like Oh and Rhys said, the mobs aint going to be picky about if people are gay or bi.
But sometimes around here it almost seems like we are supposed to apologize for not being bi.

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

You know I find this conversation to be mind boggling. Considering how recenty the concept of "being gay" or "being bi" is historically. It really is a manifestation of the last hundred years. Before that each culture dealt with the phenomenon of people being attracted to the same gender differently, but with the exception of some Native American tribes you were not identified as "being" something different. Dr. Kinsey did extensive research on human sexuality and the percentage of the poulation which is 100% GAY or STRAIGHT is less than 1%. Almost everyone falls somewhere in the middle, though most have a definative preference. There was a period of my life where I did fall for one or two females. And I fell hard. It was a deep emotional attachment, but when sexuality came into the picture nothing worked as well. But I do know what it is like to feel that way about someone, and to say that someone who is bi doesn't understand, or that it effects them less is to make their homosexual loves seem insignificant. You do not have to be something to empathize with it. Empathy on it's deepest level is part of being human, and I have to say that I feel it is unjust and a touch condecending to tell the bi people on this board that it's nice they feel the way they do, but they really don't understand. I know if someone were to say that to me I would feel very hurt and not want to take part in the community from which I had been told that. And I definately don't want any of them to feel that way about this board.

Im sorry if you feel like anyone is hurting your feelings, but come on. I empathize with the shit black people have to put up with in this country but that dont make me black, and what would really be condescending would be for me to tell black people Oh, yeah, I know exactly what its like to be you.

 

[Zergplex]

Re: Re: Zergplex Says

Isnt that like saying rich people know more about how shitty it is to be poor than poor people do because they know what poor people are missing?

Well to use an example from my own life loosly related to your example, once upon a time my family was middle class, later on we became dirt poor for the rest of my life. At one point I was living on the street. I believe I have a better view of the money/life I lost then people who never had the money/life to begin with. On the same vein I have the ability to date both men and women, but I I would willingly give up basic rights I have with a women to date a man I love. That willingless to give up what I COULD have should itself show I have a place in this battle for gay marriages, just as important a place as anyone else, gay or straight. Everyone has their own reasons for wanting to fight, and trivializing anyones part by generalizing 'bisexuals can't understand' or even 'straights can't understand'. Everyone can understand, trust me. I know a straight parent who's child is gay. He is fighting more then anyone else I know in massachusets to get gay marriage. Why? Because he wants his son to enjoy the same life he leads. Will you say he doesn't understand? There are more examples then just that, this isn't an arguement you can generalize/stereotype. Everyones reason is personal. For another example look at the gay marriage threads on this very forum. Some gays/bis are argueing against gay marriage while some straight/bis people are defending it. Everyone has their own reasons for what they do, I was just stating and defending my own.

And I do feel the original post I replied to was an attack on bisexuals involvement in this. Hence my reply, which was rather disjointed. I hope this one clears things up a bit rather then adding flames to the fire.

-Zergplex

 

[Zergplex]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

Im sorry if you feel like anyone is hurting your feelings, but come on. I empathize with the shit black people have to put up with in this country but that dont make me black, and what would really be condescending would be for me to tell black people Oh, yeah, I know exactly what its like to be you.

Are you half black? Well if you were you might have to put up with racism yourself, being half something can be MORE then enough for some people. Do you think bisexuals don't get shit on by those that are homophobic? Of course we do! If your dating a same sex partner then you know what, your just as fucked as anyone else. Empathy works both ways, bisexuals may not be able to understand you, but does that mean that YOU understand bisexuals? Can you trivialize our roll without first understanding our feelings?

-Zergplex

 

[Zergplex]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

Nope I wasnt saying that at all. I think like Oh and Rhys said, the mobs aint going to be picky about if people are gay or bi.
But sometimes around here it almost seems like we are supposed to apologize for not being bi.

I can't really understand that sentiment. I have always had gays tell me I can't know how it feels to be gay because I can date women, and had straight people tell me that I'm not a part of them because I can date guys. Bisexuals may be looked a bit more favorably by society in general, but in reality bisexual seems to mean you can get shit on by BOTH sides. Everything gays hate about straights can be used against bisexuals, and vice versa. Everyone still seems hooked on the sterotype of bisexuals being people who want their cake and eat it too, when the only reason a few of us bisexual is to not limit our chances of finding the right person by eliminating a gender.

....boy this wasn't supposed to turn into a rant. Maybe I can understand your sentiment about gay's needing to apoligize for not being bi if you explained a bit more about why you feel that way ^_^ not trying to be antagonistic here, I'd actually like to know.

-Zergplex

 

[Bitchslapper]

Trust me, you are not the first person to think of this. Many many conservative politicians use that as an argument against legalizing same-sex marriage.

The Feb 13th issue of the Washington Blade (my local gay paper) had an article on page 12 called Utah polygamy suit cites Lawrence ruling. Here's a relevant quote from the article:

Again, you twist my words to say something completely different and opposite from what I was actually trying to say. And I wasn't refering just to polygamy, I was refering to multiple husbands as well. It was actually an urgument in favor of broadening our definition of marriage, not narrowing it.

And I by no means claimed it was an original thought. I know there is no such thing.

 

[Zergplex]

Zergplex Says

Again, you twist my words to say something completely different and opposite from what I was actually trying to say. And I wasn't refering just to polygamy, I was refering to multiple husbands as well. It was actually an urgument in favor of broadening our definition of marriage, not narrowing it.

And I by no means claimed it was an original thought. I know there is no such thing.

Your are the first person I'v seen who has advocated broadening marriage in ways other then gay marriage. I don't agree with giving marriage to multiple partners for my own reasons, but I can respect the idea of broadening marriage. If more people felt we should broaden rather then restrict marriage then we wouldn't have the problem with getting the rights to gay marriage.

-Zergplex

 

[Etoile]

And I wasn't refering just to polygamy, I was refering to multiple husbands as well.

Just for the record, polygamy means multiple spouses, not multiple wives.

 

[Bitchslapper]

I think you're refering to polyandry, rather than polygamy. Oh, and thanks for apologizing to me for misconstruing something I said...oh wait, you didn't do that. Never mind then.