you guys will hate me....

[Netzach]

Re: Re: Zergplex Says

I appreciate the sentiments of your post, but I am not convinced your logic holds up.

With all respect to you and other bisexuals, the fact is, you don't know what it's like to be gay, just as those of us who are gay don't really understand what it is like to be bi.

Even were you to marry a man, you would still be a bi man in a relationship with a man, and the option to bail out and find a more socially acceptable relationship would still be available to you. Basically, it's as if we were all in a plane together over enemy territory. We are all on the same side, none of us want the plane to be shot down, but some of us have parachutes and some of us do not.

I have issues with this analogy.

It's like saying because I have the option to pass more easily it's not as painful or as damaging or as fucked up for me to closet myself and pass.

I can't and won't live like that, not when it's all cool and not when the shit hits the fan. Just because it's an option doesn't mean it's an option. And if a gay man or lesbian really wanted to pass, they could too at high cost. We're not talking skin color here.

OTOH, I agree with the original thing Mz. Christa said, and the original sentiment. Yes the stakes are higher if your sweetie has the same plumbing as you. I agree. I have no business denying that I have a serious privilege to marry as things stand now.

Hopefully that will go the way of the dodo and quick.

 

[Queersetti]

Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

I have issues with this analogy.

It's like saying because I have the option to pass more easily it's not as painful or as damaging or as fucked up for me to closet myself and pass.

I can't and won't live like that, not when it's all cool and not when the shit hits the fan. Just because it's an option doesn't mean it's an option. And if a gay man or lesbian really wanted to pass, they could too at high cost. We're not talking skin color here.

OTOH, I agree with the original thing Mz. Christa said, and the original sentiment. Yes the stakes are higher if your sweetie has the same plumbing as you. I agree. I have no business denying that I have a serious privilege to marry as things stand now.

Hopefully that will go the way of the dodo and quick.

I did not mean to imply that it would not be painful and damaging for bis to have to closet themselves. I regret that you took it that way. Your point that gays and lesbians can pass if they really want to is well taken.

 

[Netzach]

Meh, I don't take things so personal. I was just pointing out that there's a fallacy in the ease of passing argument.

But you know me. Not everyone's bi if they only admit it and nobody has a monopoly on sexual enlightenment, yukky attitude.

 

[Bitchslapper]

But you know me. Not everyone's bi if they only admit it and nobody has a monopoly on sexual enlightenment, yukky attitude.

And by the same token, bisexuals aren't just gays who can't make the decision permamently or are "denying who they are" as some would claim.

 

[Cigan]

At the same time, I am sorry that Cigan feels condescended to by my assertion that gay identity is unique to those who are actually gay. I am puzzled by this, as most bisexuals I know insist that bisexuality is a distinct orientation, and not simply a matter of being "half straight and half gay". If bisexuals are neither gays in denial nor straights on a fling, but a distinct category, then I don't understand why recognizing that being gay is something distinct would offend anyone.

I do not feel that stating that being bisexual is a unique experience is condecending. I feel that telling them that they don't actually understand what it's like to not be able to marry the person they love is condecending. Specifically the comments like "let's face facts, you can marry the person you are dating and I can't." And the comment about Zergplex's "theory" when he had recounted a personal experience of having dated a man before and knowing what it would be like if it had been a male in that place. That is not a theory, that is a statement as to his own feelings on the subject. That specific reference is what upset me the most. Bisexuality is indeed a different experience from being homosexual, to be sure, but I find it upsetting that people are willing to sit here and tell them they don't understand the situation as fully as we full homosexuals do. That is what upset me.

 

[Zergplex]

Zergplex Says

I do not feel that stating that being bisexual is a unique experience is condecending. I feel that telling them that they don't actually understand what it's like to not be able to marry the person they love is condecending. Specifically the comments like "let's face facts, you can marry the person you are dating and I can't." And the comment about Zergplex's "theory" when he had recounted a personal experience of having dated a man before and knowing what it would be like if it had been a male in that place. That is not a theory, that is a statement as to his own feelings on the subject. That specific reference is what upset me the most. Bisexuality is indeed a different experience from being homosexual, to be sure, but I find it upsetting that people are willing to sit here and tell them they don't understand the situation as fully as we full homosexuals do. That is what upset me.

Thank you Cigan, it's good to see that some homosexuals see where I'm coming from on this. I also think that Q has some good points in his posts, but instead of continueing this debate shall we move on to...

I recognize that there is a great deal of gradation in human sexuality, but I believe that at either end of the scale, the categories of straight and gay exist as ontological categories. If others disagree with me, I think that could lead to a very interesting discussion.

Well then lets discuss ^_~ I think this would be an interesting topic. I'v got to head off to work but I'll be back to reply around 4:30.

-Zergplex

 

[Rhys]

Rather than address Cigan, Zergplex and MzChrista point by point, I will try to respond to the overall issue. I hope no one minds or feels slighted.

This board is different from most GLBT forums in which I have participated, in that the majority of the active participants are bisexuals, and in some ways, a bisexual focus predominates. In most GLBT forums, the agenda is primarily gay and lesbian driven, and bisexual issues take a lesser role. I regret that MzChrista feels that the board sometimes makes her feel like she should apologize for being gay, but I must admit, I understand where she is coming from

Ironically, part of the reason I don't post here very often is because I often feel like the perception is that my partner and I are not gay enough.

 

[Queersetti]

I do not feel that stating that being bisexual is a unique experience is condecending. I feel that telling them that they don't actually understand what it's like to not be able to marry the person they love is condecending. Specifically the comments like "let's face facts, you can marry the person you are dating and I can't." And the comment about Zergplex's "theory" when he had recounted a personal experience of having dated a man before and knowing what it would be like if it had been a male in that place. That is not a theory, that is a statement as to his own feelings on the subject. That specific reference is what upset me the most. Bisexuality is indeed a different experience from being homosexual, to be sure, but I find it upsetting that people are willing to sit here and tell them they don't understand the situation as fully as we full homosexuals do. That is what upset me.

I don't recall making any statement that dismissed Zergplex's experiences as a "theory", and in reviewing this thread, I can see no such comment now. I don't think I, or anyone else, has claimed that bisexuals can't "understand the situation" as well as gays. As far as I can see, that is not, nor has it ever been, an issue in dispute. My point has been not that bis could not empathize with gays or appreciate the nuances of the issue, but that at a core level, they can not fully understand what it means to be gay. You are certainly entitled to believe otherwise, and if you do, then we will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[Queersetti]

Re: Zergplex Says

Thank you Cigan, it's good to see that some homosexuals see where I'm coming from on this. I also think that Q has some good points in his posts, but instead of continueing this debate shall we move on to...



Well then lets discuss ^_~ I think this would be an interesting topic. I'v got to head off to work but I'll be back to reply around 4:30.

-Zergplex

I will look forward to reading your thoughts on the issue.

 

[Queersetti]

Ironically, part of the reason I don't post here very often is because I often feel like the perception is that my partner and I are not gay enough.

Well, I for one, don't want anyone to feel that they are unwelcome to participate here because of their orientation, and I would be very pleased to see the two of you posting more.

 

[Zergplex]

Zergplex Says

Well for my views on orientation. I believe that everyone exists on a spectrum, at one end is only feeling love and empathy with a women, and the other end is only feeling such with a man. THe terms hetrosexual, homosexual, and bisexual never come into the equation in my belief. Everyone is just sexual in differant ways, hence why it is impossible to have everyone agree as to what 'makes' you gay or bi or even straight. Because sexuality is all differant. Everyone exists on differant parts of the spectrum, feeling more for one sex or the other but very rarely is someone at either extreme completely.

On another tangent off my original tangent (I trust it all ties back together!) I believe that love is all the same, weither for your family, a lover, or children. Love in an action, and though you show your love in differant ways to differant people the action of giving your love is the same for everyone. Hence why I said 'love and empathy' earlier. You could be closer to the center because you can empathise with and give love in OTHER ways to the same/opposite sex, which puts you closer to them on the scale then those whom the other sides feelings are a mystery. Well I have gone on long enough and probubly confused enough people with my inane prattle. Have a nice day.

-Zergplex

 

[Bitchslapper]

"Caaan you feeel the loove toniiiight?" LOL, couldn't resist...

And for some reason, this Disney song comes to mind to mind too...

"Can you paint with all the colors of the wiiiind?"

 

[Zergplex]

Zergplex Says

"Caaan you feeel the loove toniiiight?" LOL, couldn't resist...

And for some reason, this Disney song comes to mind to mind too...

"Can you paint with all the colors of the wiiiind?"

Thank you BS, those comments just dragged me kicking and screaming out of my bad mood ^_^

-Zergplex

 

[Bitchslapper]

Thanks. I have no idea where those thoughts came from. Your post just struck a chord in my mind that reminded me of those songs I guess. Not sure why. They have little or nothing to do with the subject. But then, who said human thought has to make sense?

 

[Zergplex]

Thanks. I have no idea where those thoughts came from. Your post just struck a chord in my mind that reminded me of those songs I guess. Not sure why. They have little or nothing to do with the subject. But then, who said human thought has to make sense?

If human thought made sense when we wouldn't have non-dairy cream. ^_^

-Zergplex

 

[Bitchslapper]

Or jumbo shrimp.

 

[Cigan]

I don't recall making any statement that dismissed Zergplex's experiences as a "theory", and in reviewing this thread, I can see no such comment now. I don't think I, or anyone else, has claimed that bisexuals can't "understand the situation" as well as gays. As far as I can see, that is not, nor has it ever been, an issue in dispute. My point has been not that bis could not empathize with gays or appreciate the nuances of the issue, but that at a core level, they can not fully understand what it means to be gay. You are certainly entitled to believe otherwise, and if you do, then we will simply have to agree to disagree.

I appreciate the sentiments of your post, but I am not convinced your logic holds up.

I am sorry I remembered the quote wrong. It was the reference to the term "logic" that bothered me, I had read the post earlier and misunderstood it. Zergplex was referring to his own emotional state and I thought refering to what he was saying as logic made it sound like he was analyzing bi-sexuals instead of expressing himself through his own experiences as one. I may have over-reacted, but it got under my skin so to speak.

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

I can't really understand that sentiment. I have always had gays tell me I can't know how it feels to be gay because I can date women, and had straight people tell me that I'm not a part of them because I can date guys. Bisexuals may be looked a bit more favorably by society in general, but in reality bisexual seems to mean you can get shit on by BOTH sides. Everything gays hate about straights can be used against bisexuals, and vice versa. Everyone still seems hooked on the sterotype of bisexuals being people who want their cake and eat it too, when the only reason a few of us bisexual is to not limit our chances of finding the right person by eliminating a gender.

....boy this wasn't supposed to turn into a rant. Maybe I can understand your sentiment about gay's needing to apoligize for not being bi if you explained a bit more about why you feel that way ^_^ not trying to be antagonistic here, I'd actually like to know.

-Zergplex

Look you seem like a nice guy i dont want to get in a flame war with you.
But you are proving my point over and over again. Around here I keep gettiing this attitude that bis understand all about being gay but when gays try to talk about what its like to be gay the bis get a tude about how unfair we are being. Seems like we are being told you can understand us but we can never understand you. Its BS both ways. Im a dyke youre a biguy. We can be friends we can be allies but your shoes aint ever going to fit me and mine aint going to ever fit you.

 

[Zergplex]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

Look you seem like a nice guy i dont want to get in a flame war with you.
But you are proving my point over and over again. Around here I keep gettiing this attitude that bis understand all about being gay but when gays try to talk about what its like to be gay the bis get a tude about how unfair we are being. Seems like we are being told you can understand us but we can never understand you. Its BS both ways. Im a dyke youre a biguy. We can be friends we can be allies but your shoes aint ever going to fit me and mine aint going to ever fit you.

Notice that we have moved on from this conversation, or I have at least so a flame war doesn't erupt. Your never going to agree or see my point and neither will I agree or see yours. Shall we agree to disagree and continue on in a differant conversation?

-Zergplex

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Zergplex Says

Well for my views on orientation. I believe that everyone exists on a spectrum, at one end is only feeling love and empathy with a women, and the other end is only feeling such with a man. THe terms hetrosexual, homosexual, and bisexual never come into the equation in my belief. Everyone is just sexual in differant ways, hence why it is impossible to have everyone agree as to what 'makes' you gay or bi or even straight. Because sexuality is all differant. Everyone exists on differant parts of the spectrum, feeling more for one sex or the other but very rarely is someone at either extreme completely.

On another tangent off my original tangent (I trust it all ties back together!) I believe that love is all the same, weither for your family, a lover, or children. Love in an action, and though you show your love in differant ways to differant people the action of giving your love is the same for everyone. Hence why I said 'love and empathy' earlier. You could be closer to the center because you can empathise with and give love in OTHER ways to the same/opposite sex, which puts you closer to them on the scale then those whom the other sides feelings are a mystery. Well I have gone on long enough and probubly confused enough people with my inane prattle. Have a nice day.

-Zergplex

Sorry, that dosn't work for me at all. For one thing its not about love. Its about sexual orientation I can love and empathize with men. My best friend is a man who I love dearly. So does that make me not be a lesbian? The way you put it, that its all about love and all types of love are the same it comes off as a denial there there is such a thing as gay identity at all.

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

Notice that we have moved on from this conversation, or I have at least so a flame war doesn't erupt. Your never going to agree or see my point and neither will I agree or see yours. Shall we agree to disagree and continue on in a differant conversation?

-Zergplex

Whoops looks like I been dismissed.

Nope no reason to feel like an outsider around her.

 

[Netzach]

I can totally agree with the idea that I don't have a lesbian experience and never will. Nor will I really understand the life of an exclusively gay man, for obvious reasons, even if I underwent surgery and found the beardaddy of my dreams. That would be a trannyfag experience that no gay man is going to fully absorb either.

I will also assert that I'm even less able to make heads or tails of the straight experience.

What's the deal? I think bisexual folks are so titchy about not being in whatever club that we sometimes get downright silly. We're all coming at this thing from different angles. Marriage is going to mean different things to different people, and for every dyke who pines to marry her girlfriend there's another who sees marriage as an evil heterosexual institution she wants no part of.

I'd like to get together long enough to say that anyone who wants to get hitched should be able to, and right now the heat is on the people who share the same genitals.

 

[Netzach]

I'm queer.

I don't think it's all about love and I don't think it's all about fucking.

But in the political climate of today, I think it's completely irresponsible to rationalize away everyone's identity and difference as "just sexual" that's a nice ideal, it's not a very realistic stance when the Right is at your door.

 

[Zergplex]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

Whoops looks like I been dismissed.

Nope no reason to feel like an outsider around her.

Well if you noticed we DID move to another subject. And I tried to bring up another subject earlier because I don't want this to degenerate into a flamewar, just as you mentioned you didn't want it to either. Either way I'm just going to stop argueing my point, it isn't worth that much to me to get worked up over *shrugs* you believe what you believe and I shall continue to believe as I do.

No need to feel like an outsider, from the current replies more people seem to agree with you anyways.

So shall we continue on a differant subject?

-Zergplex

 

[Pookie]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zergplex Says

Whoops looks like I been dismissed.

Nope no reason to feel like an outsider around her.

I hope you don't continue to feel like an outsider. I really do look forward to reading posts by everyone. There is no way that I can have the perspective on things that you may have. We have different experiences, and experience different reactions to who we are. There are things I probably will never be able to understand or know, because I am bisexual.

I do value yours and others' views, and appreciate the differences. I think we have commonality in that we deal with the same issues, just in different ways many times. I hope this doesn't come across as ass kissing or anything. But I wanted to say it even if it does.