A question of race

[sunfox]

I know opinions are like assholes - everybody has one, and I'm no different.

IMO, this thread presented a noble attempt to solicit opinions from those of African American descent on the use of and identity with the label "slave".

Somewhere along the line, we appear to have gone down the road that asks the questions, "Why just African Americans? Is this board not inclusive enough to incorporate the other races of the world that have also suffered as slaves?"

To that, I submit that anyone with a heritage which involves slavery is going to be passionate about that history; and it affects them deeply when others toss around a cavalier attitude about it. It takes great fortitude to stand up against others when you believe you are being attacked.

I say again - Let's try not to make this an issue of "my slave ancestors were more oppressed than yours." I'm sure we can all agree that there have been many cultures persecuted as slaves and the African American experience has received an enormous amount of attention; but they have not been the only slaves in history. And, unfortunately, the effects of slavery ARE still with us to this day.

I, personally, welcome the opinions of other cultures who have had to deal with slavery in their history. This is just MY opinion, but when other opinions are desired and welcomed, it shows an open mind and strength of character that allows one to rise above the "pain" that words and labels such as "slave" can cause.

I may not have made it clear in my previous post, but I am an intelligent, educated, dignified black woman - who embraces my calling to be a slave.

Esclava

Oh for Christ's sake. I can see that being plainspoken wasn't quite plain enough.

I WILL NOT BE CALLED A SLAVE. Period. Not ever. Not by anyone. Not by my loved one. Not as a joke. I do not like green eggs and ham. I do not like them, Sam I Am.

I don't mind at all that Catalina is fine with the term slave. That's her business. I think no less of her for it. I like her, and find her intelligent and well spoken.

My opinion is MINE alone. And it does not mean my mind is not open, or that I have no strength of character, simply because I refuse to allow the person I love to call me a slave.. even had he the desire to do so, which he does not. It simply means that -I- personally cannot stomach the term when applied to me. That's it. That's all. Like it or don't, I don't really care.

As Eleanor Roosevelt stated, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Well. I don't give my consent to be made to feel inferior, in my mind or in his. If the term slave makes me feel inferior, that is all that matters in our relationship... that it makes me upset and sad and angry and defensive. That is my choice. Respect it.

P.S. - rosco... you crack me up.

 

[MastrJ]

I'll add my two-cents to this. I'm mostly white, but with some Amerind ancestry as well. I was a little uncomfortable at first being called 'Master'. Mostly I think it's because I've worked so hard to seperate myself from the racism on my father's side of my family. Growing up I was always uncomfortable with hearing my grandfather talk about 'porch monkeys' (as well as many other insulting names) in downtown St. Louis. My father was a much more low key in his racism, but is just as bad. I'm ok with being called 'Master' now, but it's taken me a few months to get used to it and be able to realize that it's different when a submssive uses that term. Of course, if I were ever to have a submissive that wasn't white I might be uncomfortable with the term and have them use something else. Until recently, my submissive used the term Shoaku. It's master in Japanese, but the different sound of the word was able to get past my filters and not make me uncomfortable.

Again, just my two-cents.

 

[Esclava]

Oh for Christ's sake. I can see that being plainspoken wasn't quite plain enough.

I WILL NOT BE CALLED A SLAVE. Period. Not ever. ...

What makes you think that your “plain spoken” message wasn’t plain enough? Who told you something was wrong with vehemently saying you would not be called slave for any reason? Why are you attacking another’s opinion when they have already agreed with your point of view?

When I said: “This is just MY opinion, but when other opinions are desired and welcomed, it shows an open mind and strength of character that allows one to rise above the "pain" that words and labels such as "slave" can cause. “, it was intended for those who oppose the pronouncement of opinions that differ from theirs. Having an opinion is fine – I don’t care one way or the other whether you agree with what I say or not – the bottom line is that I ALLOW you to say what you desire and accept it as your opinion without tearing you down about it. You are attacking an ally. In my experience, as well as in history, that has always been a bad move.

Esclava

 

[Etoile]

Now feels like a good time for a little Voltaire:

I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

 

[sunfox]

What makes you think that your “plain spoken” message wasn’t plain enough? Who told you something was wrong with vehemently saying you would not be called slave for any reason? Why are you attacking another’s opinion when they have already agreed with your point of view?

*snip* You are attacking an ally. In my experience, as well as in history, that has always been a bad move.

Esclava

To the first question... that your pointedly non-directional post could be construed as pointed towards me, rather than pointed towards Catalina or anyone else in the thread. If you're choosing to comment to someone, quote them, or mention them. Otherwise, it can seem as if you're responding to the post directly above you, thus causing misunderstanding. We're big girls and boys. We can handle disagreement.

Second question: Plenty of people have had issue with my dislike of the term slave. That it wasn't here, doesn't make it less of a touchy situation for me.

Third question: Maybe you read the wrong post... because I don't see a personal attack in mine. I see a reiteration of my previous position. I'm not vague about commenting, whether for or against someone's position. If I'd been after ripping someone a new one in particular, I'd have said Hey, Esclava, wth are you thinking? I'm not a subtle girl.

I will, however, admit to severe moodiness yesterday, due to the sale of one of my favorite horses which has me rather sad and upset, and for the cranky tone of my posts, I apologize.

 

[Esclava]

To the first question... that your pointedly non-directional post could be construed as pointed towards me, rather than pointed towards Catalina or anyone else in the thread. If you're choosing to comment to someone, quote them, or mention them. Otherwise, it can seem as if you're responding to the post directly above you, thus causing misunderstanding. We're big girls and boys. We can handle disagreement.

Second question: Plenty of people have had issue with my dislike of the term slave. That it wasn't here, doesn't make it less of a touchy situation for me.

Third question: Maybe you read the wrong post... because I don't see a personal attack in mine. I see a reiteration of my previous position. I'm not vague about commenting, whether for or against someone's position. If I'd been after ripping someone a new one in particular, I'd have said Hey, Esclava, wth are you thinking? I'm not a subtle girl.

I will, however, admit to severe moodiness yesterday, due to the sale of one of my favorite horses which has me rather sad and upset, and for the cranky tone of my posts, I apologize.

To your 1st response: Those who have seen me on the boards KNOW that I have no problem quoting and commenting on particular posts. If my comment had been directed at you (or anyone else in particular), that opinion would have been quoted.

To your 2nd response: I had no issue with your dislike of the term. I said so in my previous post. It's your pregrogative - your opinion, and you must live with it; not me.

To your 3rd response: When you take a direct quote from something I have said, then use my words to defend a point of contention, you have done what is considered in battlefield etiquette as signaling an impending attack. Whether the attack actually happens or not, the response is the same - my defenses go up as well.

Confrontation is not something I do or take lightly. I am a warrior, but pick and choose the battles to fight that help me win wars that are important to me. There was no purpose served by being in conflict with you over your opinion, so I took no issue with it - but that is, apparently, not how you viewed my post. If you feel my post was "pointedly, non-directional" (which, if I had thinner skin, could be construed as an attack as well), you missed the point that the post was designed to re-direct the thread back to acquiring opinions and away from the flaming, which is so prevalent on these boards.

With that said, I sympathize with you on your loss, humbly accept the apology and wish you speedy recovery from your grief.

Esclava

 

[Phoenix Stone]

...butting my nose in where it doesn't belong --

Got a feeling you guys are talking past each other and misunderstanding each other and that this could go on for a while -- and you don't even seem to be Enjoying it! (worst part.)

On a lighter note -- I have a hard time calling my dh Master because the word reminds me of that lisping Igor on Young Frankenstein -- I hear 'Yeth, Mathter!' every time.

We all have association with words. It makes sense that the term 'slave' would be painful to some, or bring up associations that aren't enjoyable. My husband prefers 'slavegirl' and I prefer 'fucktoy' (partly because it sounds funny) but I can live with slavegirl, which I think conjurs up images of romanticized harem babes in his mind. Whatever works and doesn't hurt -- unless you want it to. (I still kinda crack up about Mr.Blonde or whoever it was, saying he didn't like the term Dom, and making references to Dom DeLuis.)

Good question though.

(and hi, justagirl1, Welcome!)

 

[RawHumor]

I'll add my two-cents to this. I'm mostly white, but with some Amerind ancestry as well. I was a little uncomfortable at first being called 'Master'. Mostly I think it's because I've worked so hard to seperate myself from the racism on my father's side of my family. Growing up I was always uncomfortable with hearing my grandfather talk about 'porch monkeys' (as well as many other insulting names) in downtown St. Louis. My father was a much more low key in his racism, but is just as bad. I'm ok with being called 'Master' now, but it's taken me a few months to get used to it and be able to realize that it's different when a submssive uses that term. Of course, if I were ever to have a submissive that wasn't white I might be uncomfortable with the term and have them use something else. Until recently, my submissive used the term Shoaku. It's master in Japanese, but the different sound of the word was able to get past my filters and not make me uncomfortable.

Again, just my two-cents.

Hey, that's a good point. I hadn't really thought about white (or whit-ISH) dominants, especially from the Southern part of the US, having sensitivities about being referred to as "Master".

Thank you, everyone, for the replies. There are two reasons that I directed the original question mostly toward black people in the United States. First, I am from the US and it's the country with which I have the most familiarity. Second, and this may very well be related to the first, I haven't heard as many other slave ancestors showing the bitterness about the past that African Americans rightly show.

Again, it may be just that I'm not looking beyond my own front porch, but those were the reasons that I phrased the original question the way I did.

Anytime race or non-bdsm slavery gets mentioned, there will generally be some heat in the discussions, so that didn't surprise me too much. It wasn't the point of the whole thread, but after a while, you get used to such things.

I'll check out your thread very soon, Etoile. Thanks for the link.

 

[Xaria Tsunami]

Well...I'm of african decent.

And it wasn't hard because well, the major difference is that it was MY choice and I had freedom to do this.

I have no idea what my family wold think or other people of my race. But I don't have any problem with it.

Of course there would be a question of a black person haveing a caucasian dom of whether or not they would use racial slurs. I personally think I couldn't handle it because I would ask myself if they have any respect for me at all and how do they really view and on what level.

I would have to have a really strong relationship with them to not take being called. 'My cute black slave girl"..or "black nigger' in a dom/sub relationship in a bad way.

 

[ammre]

polish, german, irish, english, and scottish... born and raised in jersey suburbs all american female college student... I mean i'm sure you could say that the irish had the potato famine and were discriminated, but i can trace my irish back to pre-famine and they were rich... same with the english(i could technically be a daughter of the revolution), the polish, and the scottish, and i don't think the germans pre ww1/ww2 were really ever discriminated against...

ANYWAY: all that was just pointing out that I'm probably the blandest of the bland. Yet, i'd still balk at the idea of being called a slave... (of course if you want to be called it, i'm glad it gets your rocks off!)

although, after talking to my friend who's all hardcore female-strength psych major and her giving me attitude for "reversing everything the suffragists tried for" and "letting men keep the notion that they can control us all" (hee hee, she didn't have an answer when i sad, "well what about Dommes?") I can understand how if you were in a family that has had struggles with slavery and personal rights in the past, it would be hard to let them onto your lifestyle.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

ot -- feminism & bdsm

although, after talking to my friend who's all hardcore female-strength psych major and her giving me attitude for "reversing everything the suffragists tried for" and "letting men keep the notion that they can control us all"

Ok, off-topic and probably been done but could I please go there? I'm a strong hardcore female-strength graduated psych major -- and what you think and believe can sometimes get in the way of what you do privately for fun -- and unless it's hurting someone, I don't think it should. Took me a long time to be ok with my fantasy life At All and to start looking at making a bit of it realtime.
This was one of my blocks -- I didn't want to feel this way because I didn't approve of it for myself and thought it might mean there was something wrong with me and all that.

Took a Long time to decide that, if it does, I'm likely too old to fix it (sexual quirks of any kind are notoriously hard to change), so if it's not hurting anyone, I'd rather enjoy it than squelch my sex life an orgasms. I'd hate to think Gloria Steinem feels she has to be politically correct in the bedroom if that's not her bent.

Yes, it bugs me when a few of the, in my opinion, more ignorant doms and subs, get into all that 'men are meant to dom and women to be passive vessels' kind of crap, but have even gotten to where I can mostly ignore that and not let them spoil my fun either.

It's hard enough to have a great sex life. Imposing all kinds of philosophical intellect-based conditions on it is just giving yourself extra trouble for nothing. There's no place to go where you can redeem those extra points you'll get from the correctness police, in trade for having and enjoying your life.