A Question to Online DSers

[cymbidia]

Damn it, b, learn to spell "their," will ya? Even an anal retentive like me can't catch 'em all!

I can't. Tougher broads then you have tried to make me learn the whole "i" "e" and "e" "i" thing and failed. Maybe you and Muff could just sorta follow me around and clean up after my messy ie's and ei's as i make them?




Ahem.
General announcement.

In real life, i am almost always a sweet get-along-with-everyone sort of woman and Risia is often a take-no-prisoners-and-never-suffers-fools kinda gal.

I am telling the truth.

She and i laughed about it on the phone tonight, the way people think i'm the nasty one here when out there i'm just as sweet as the day is long - and the opposite for Risia. For a complete picture, Muff is the absolute epitome of genteel sweetness, too, out there.

Just wanted to clear that up.
Thanks for listening.
We'll be retuning you to your regular thread in a moment...

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Long position statement...apologies in advance

But, we all also know that the same is true in real life--there are predators and pretenders everywhere. The 'net may allow them to flourish more easily, but it's not an exclusively internet-based problem. We wouldn't suggest that nobody should go to a public fetish event because a psycho might use them as a hunting ground, would we?


To the extent that a chatroom based connection becomes a real relationship, it seems to me that this is hugely variable--at least the possibilities are wildly divergent. Granted, chatrooms foster silly protocols & surface level conversation. Granted, the 'net fosters anonymity and thus encourages posturing, trolling, and predatory behavior. However, the 'net also allows people without the money to travel and without local access to information--much less like-minded people--to exchange information and make connections.

And those connections between people, those real meetings of mind and emotion which make for meaningful relationships of all kinds, DO develop online and across distance, at least some of the time and for some people. I know this because I consider you one of the most important people in my life, b, and I've never even shaken your hand. If *that* is possible, isn't it at least thinkable that the *emotional* side of a BDSM relationship could actually develop in even an unlikely environment?

I'm not gonna call you an elitist cym--but I'll be honest and tell you that part of the reason I'm *not* calling you one is because you're a friend. You've got a lot of years of incredible live-skin experience with this, love, and much of it had to be kept secret for fear of much worse than embarassment. You have every right and reason to be proud of the strength, self-knowledge, and dedication that took, and takes. And to see all of that devalued and even made trivial by posturing and exploitive half-truths online has got to burn your ass something fierce. I understand why you're so turned off to chatrooms, b, but I also think there's a tendency (and not just in you) to group all online environments into one category. As we RL/lifestylers ought to know better than anyone, labels are destructive and almost never accurate when applied to particular *individuals.*

If you do nothing but post single lines of "Kneel at my feet, slave girl!" and "Yes, Master DarkFyre, oh Lord of my kingdom. Anything to serve Thee..." you aren't going to develop much of a relationship of *any* kind, are you? However, many people spend weeks/months/years exchanging email, having real-time conversations, talking on the phone, and developing something more real. I just hope that we don't lose sight of them, or of those *trying* to connect in real ways.

(I'm so anal retentive, I actually edited your post, b, to fix a typo in the word "their." No *wonder* I drive my students nuts, huh?)

The danger of accepting and really, truly, honest-to-gods believing generalizations about what "online BDSM is like" is that in doing so, we automatically marginalize people who honestly seek what we have and what we know. They may feel the connection to each other, seek the sensations and the emotion, and be communicating as openly and honestly as possible--but feel as though there's no place for them to develop beyond chatrooms. Onliners trying to learn the "real deal" need somewhere to turn; skin-to-skin people need a place that isn't caught up in "W/we" protocols and other such non-issues that we don't give a damn about; people just getting the fantasy of online need to know there's more out there and that it doesn't look like The Dungeon when there are bodies in proximity to each other.

That's a lot to lose by freezing out onliners. Thus, for us in this forum, it's a real tightrope walk, dealing with online BDSM. This is *most* true, I think, for the moderators. At the end of the day, we're the ones who have to set the guidelines, monitor the conversation, remove the off-topic posts/threads, and take the heat from both sides of EVERY disagreement in the Forum.

So, here's what I think RL players can learn from onliners:
Tolerance, acceptance of diversity, and how to lead gracefully without alienating those we would make our students, proteges, and friends.

Sorry for the ramble, everyone. That's been brewing in me for a while. Much love to all, and a big to anyone who actually finishes this behemoth.

I loved what you said!

Ebony

 

[Ebonyfire]

And I have yet to read an answer to that question that I find satisfactory.

There may be a chance that there is no answer that will satisfy you.

Ebony

 

[RisiaSkye]

Re: Re: Long position statement...apologies in advance

I loved what you said!

Ebony

Thanks, Ebony. I'm just impressed that you actually finished it. When I get cooking, I'm longer-winded than James Joyce.

 

[James Blandings]

There may be a chance that there is no answer that will satisfy you.

Ebony

I regret to say that you are probably right. Because, my conclusion is that there is nothing that online BDSM can bring to the table that is not already prevalent in RL BDSM.
That doesn't mean I don't accept the value it has for those who do participate in it, or disregard the fact that less experienced people can learn from it. But if I am to accept the experience of online BDSM as equivalent to real experience, I need more than that, and no one has been able to show it to me.

KillerMuffin- Apology gladly accepted. Discussion of this issue has grown heated, and tempers will flare now and then, it's no big deal. I value your perspectives here, and I will say that I have learned much about how a friendly vanilla perceives BDSM from your posts.

Bandit- My point is not that what you do or learn online does not have value, but that what value it has is a reflection of RL value. Surely, you must agree with me that the lessons in trust you learn in online play pale beside actually putting yourself in the hands of a real flesh and blood partner?
You may dismiss me as uninformed if I decline your suggestion that I try online play, if you wish. I see that as a retreat on the order of putting training wheels back on a bike you can already ride.

Shadowsdream- I honor the fact that you met someone special to you online. I believe that the internet is a wonderful tool for teaching, for meeting, and for camaraderie. But I still am at a loss as to in what regard online PLAY, not discussion, teaching or meeting, can teach RL people anything about BDSM.

Risia- Most of the online only people I've interacted with have all seemed to belong to the same small set of formalized "I/i Y/you" DS that is in reality a very tiny minority within BDSM, so your perception that they consitute a more varied bunch than you find in RL differs from mine.
I appreciate the point that you and KillerMuffin have made that we learn by teaching, but that only reinforces the inequality between the two camps, doesn't it? If it is our (RLers) duty to teach novices, it must be the novice's duty to quit acting like they already know it all, isn't it? And yet, we are to accept that pretending to be whipped in a chatroom gives one the same knowledge as actually feeling the lash? According to the online camp, presumably we are, but I can't buy it. Can I tolerate it? Sure, it's no skin off my nose. But I won't pretend that it is any more real than I believe playing in a fantasy baseball league makes one Sparky Anderson.

Cym- I know you're a sweetie, you didn't fool me a bit.

I will drop this subject, I am not looking to fight or be divisive. I thank everyone who responded, all your contributions were valuable to me.

 

[petrel]

I appreciate the point that you and KillerMuffin have made that we learn by teaching, but that only reinforces the inequality between the two camps, doesn't it? If it is our (RLers) duty to teach novices, it must be the novice's duty to quit acting like they already know it all, isn't it? And yet, we are to accept that pretending to be whipped in a chatroom gives one the same knowledge as actually feeling the lash? According to the online camp, presumably we are, but I can't buy it. Can I tolerate it? Sure, it's no skin off my nose. But I won't pretend that it is any more real than I believe playing in a fantasy baseball league makes one Sparky Anderson.

James its a tricky subject - one of those where we all have opinions and will defend them to the hilt, don't apologise or get grumpy with us for bringing our little pet peeves out into the open though (pretty please??)

My own view is that on-line doesn't nesecarily teahc you about BDSM but it does have the potential to teach you abotu yourself in many different ways.

But then one of my pet theories is that reality is what we will make of it and that there are times when a novel, film, thoguht, idea or online chat can be as powerful and lifechanging as the 'real' expereince.

I also think that sustaining deep online relationship is hard work - and I admire those who try - when you cnnot see, hug, touch your partner it is harder to remain faithful and committed - I know it is something I coudln't do. So maybe online can teach us how to survive long-distance relatiosnhips?
I would also say it can teach us all to look beyond the physical - to judge someone on their words and personality not their appearance.

anyway that's my two penniesworth

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: James....and online worth

Okay, so maybe i strayed a bit from your original question, but here are my thoughts on it....I know you have real life experience (from what you say ) have you ever tried it online? Doing BDSM online you learn a trust, trust that the one you are with either sub or Dom/me is real, you develop a bond that is gained over time.
Bandit

Oh please, let us not go there. I mean about the trust thing. That has been argued back and forth on every D/s list I belong too, and it has caused lots of grief and flaming.

When I train a new sub online, I do it for a finite period of time. Why? Because I know that no matter what I do online, the relationship needs that RL element to succeed. So I do no training of subs who are too far away to come to Me. I may give advice, mentor, chat, call it whatever you like, but I always expect to meet the person as soon as possible or I move on.

Like I have said in many of my earlier posts, I hate for my time to be wasted. And day in and day out chatting is a waste of my time. I am into living a real D/s life with others who want to live a real D/s life.

I will not diss the online folks, but my online patience is very limited. YMMV (your mileage may vary)

So James, I guess that means I am not qualified to answer your question at all.

Ebony

 

[WickedEve]

In real life, one cannot be simultaneously keeping an eye on the new Law and Order while also being flogged or orgasming or kneeling to obey her online Master.

Cymbidia, is this statement directed toward people who are just playing around in chat rooms, or to all l/d BDSM relationships? (Personal flaw: I don't read as carefully as I should, though I try.) If you made this clear already, then I'm sorry.
In my relationship, we have our "quiet" time together, without any disturbances. Actually, we hardly ever spend time talking online. We're fortunate to be in frequent contact by phone.

With all due respect, in my experience, i believe firmly that one needs far more creativity in real life BDSM encounters then in those of the online type.

I think one needs to be far more creative in all relationships!

In real life, one must learn to express, to vocalize, to offer suggestion and comment and lovingly stated criticisms - all deeds requiring an agile and creative mind - to her partner so that thier energy and the flow of what lies between them isn't compromised.

I do that.

One cannot log off to go attend to a sudden crisis if one gets bored. One cannot pretend to be wet, pretend to be writhing in agony/pleasure, and one certainly cannot pretend to take 30 cane strokes and then cum loudly and with *just* the right amount of hair tossing.

I don't do that.

I guess I'm special.

Wicked Eve

 

[James Blandings]

James its a tricky subject - one of those where we all have opinions and will defend them to the hilt, don't apologise or get grumpy with us for bringing our little pet peeves out into the open though (pretty please??)

I could never get grumpy with you, petrel.

 

[James Blandings]

Re: Re: Re: James....and online worth

I will not diss the online folks, but my online patience is very limited. YMMV (your mileage may vary)

So James, I guess that means I am not qualified to answer your question at all.

Ebony [/B]

Ms Ebony, if anything I have said in this discussion has given you the impression that I hold your views in anything but the highest regard, I deeply regret that.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Oh No, James...

That is not what I meant to convey <damned computer>. What I meant is that, since I am not really into online D/s, I probably should have kept my mouth shut. It is so temporary with me. I use it as a side dish to my main course.

I just gave my opinion, cause, well, I am opinionated! LOL

Eb <you still the man, James>

 

[KillerMuffin]

I've thought about this thread a lot lately. Particularly the question "What can *I*, with a long history of RL experience, learn about BDSM from *you*, an online only BDSMer, that is unique to the online experience, and of possible benefit to me in RL?"

There is an answer, but it's unacceptable because it's not within thinly delineated boundaries. No, an online BDSMer isn't going to be able to tell you the best way to restrain a sub to a rock wall without hooks. But, an online BDSMer can teach you about yourself. This answer, if I recall correctly, was tossed off as not quite relevant to the discussion. The more I think about it, the more I find this incredibly ironic.

This is what I think. I think sometimes we get so enmeshed in our lifestyle and ways, particularly when we have a great deal of practical experience and knowledge about these ways, that we forget that we still have a lot to learn.

What do people get out of BDSM?

Sexual gratification, satisfaction, all of that certainly. But at the heart, where it matters. What do people get from BDSM? Simple. Self-discovery. And therein lies the irony. Self-discovery comes in many ways. One of those ways is through teaching others.

Online BDSMers have questions about skin-to-skin because they've never done it. But they've done a BDSM relationship for some time, theoretically. The questions they ask have new applications or perhaps make one think about old knowledge in a new light. That makes self-discovery which is new knowledge of self. New knowledge of old ways.

We knew that our sun wobbles. We knew that the planetary gravity makes the sun wobble. Someone finally asked, if it does it to ours, can we find extra-solar planets by looking at the wobble of a star? Old knowledge, new application.

"I appreciate the point that you and KillerMuffin have made that we learn by teaching, but that only reinforces the inequality between the two camps, doesn't it?"

The irony is that we can't see the forest for the occasional stump. Rather than explore the possibility of intrinsicly BDSM knowledge gained, tangental divisiveness is the focus.

How does a blind man know he's blind?

You may be denying a chance to learn knowledge because it can't be quanitified for you in a satisfactory way. No one can tell you what online BDSM people can teach you or that it's something that you want to know. Therefore, there is no value to you.

You are wearing blinders.

 

[BBD]

Now that's an answer...

Sorry, didn't have anything intelligent, or even slightly witty, to add...other than I enjoyed reading that last response.

 

[James Blandings]

I've thought about this thread a lot lately. Particularly the question "What can *I*, with a long history of RL experience, learn about BDSM from *you*, an online only BDSMer, that is unique to the online experience, and of possible benefit to me in RL?"

There is an answer, but it's unacceptable because it's not within thinly delineated boundaries. No, an online BDSMer isn't going to be able to tell you the best way to restrain a sub to a rock wall without hooks. But, an online BDSMer can teach you about yourself. This answer, if I recall correctly, was tossed off as not quite relevant to the discussion. The more I think about it, the more I find this incredibly ironic.

This is what I think. I think sometimes we get so enmeshed in our lifestyle and ways, particularly when we have a great deal of practical experience and knowledge about these ways, that we forget that we still have a lot to learn.

What do people get out of BDSM?

Sexual gratification, satisfaction, all of that certainly. But at the heart, where it matters. What do people get from BDSM? Simple. Self-discovery. And therein lies the irony. Self-discovery comes in many ways. One of those ways is through teaching others.

Online BDSMers have questions about skin-to-skin because they've never done it. But they've done a BDSM relationship for some time, theoretically. The questions they ask have new applications or perhaps make one think about old knowledge in a new light. That makes self-discovery which is new knowledge of self. New knowledge of old ways.

We knew that our sun wobbles. We knew that the planetary gravity makes the sun wobble. Someone finally asked, if it does it to ours, can we find extra-solar planets by looking at the wobble of a star? Old knowledge, new application.

"I appreciate the point that you and KillerMuffin have made that we learn by teaching, but that only reinforces the inequality between the two camps, doesn't it?"

The irony is that we can't see the forest for the occasional stump. Rather than explore the possibility of intrinsicly BDSM knowledge gained, tangental divisiveness is the focus.

How does a blind man know he's blind?

You may be denying a chance to learn knowledge because it can't be quanitified for you in a satisfactory way. No one can tell you what online BDSM people can teach you or that it's something that you want to know. Therefore, there is no value to you.

You are wearing blinders.

I am not wearing blinders. I am very open to learning, and I agree with you that there is a great opportunity to learn about oneself from interactions with less knowledgeable people, through the questions they ask, and the self reflection needed to formulate an answer.
But, at no point was the process of learning through discussion relevant to my question.
I am not talking about novices asking questions online , in forums such as this, or in chatrooms, yahoo groups,etc., and I ask your forgiveness if I have not made that clear. I am talking about online d/s relationships, period. What can I learn about how d/s relationships work, that I can't learn from talking to those I know who actually live in such relationships, from those who engage in cyber d/s relationships? What unique quality have they discovered that is undiscoverable to those who participate in the flesh?
I participate in several BDSM discussion groups in my own community, and have happily mentored a number of new people, and each experience has taught me something valueable. Your presumption that I am not open to learning borders on the offensive.
I have asked my question several times, and no one has answered it to MY satisfaction. I believe it can not be answered to my satisfation, and have stated my willingness to drop the subject. If you wish to think me closeminded, or blindered,that is your prerogative.

 

[cymbidia]

I'm going to get in trouble for posting the following. I know i am, or i'm afraid i am, anyway.

A sudden, related, and extremely troubling thought: why should i suddenly feel afraid to voice my opinions in this place after having been a part of this community since its inception?



Ahem.
James and i and a few others have more years of experience with BDSM in our real lives than many here have years of life.

I've been doing this for 30 years.
James has been doing it for longer, i think.

Our view of what is BDSM has been shaped and forged by forces that most of you will never have any first-hand knowledge of. Maybe we really cannot see the value that some of you hold regarding what is to us such a transparently fake kinda BDSM.

Perhaps our ideas of the value of skin-to-skin BDSM, the only kind available until 6 or 7 years ago, versus that offered by adherents of chat room style BDSM are never ever going to dovetail in any but the most uneasy manner.

One last thing. We've earned our feelings and have a right to express them, same as anyone here.



Disclaimer: I've used James' nick libreally here but i haven't talked to him about this and don't know if he's in agreement with my ideas. Please don't hold him accountable for anything i've said if you feel a need to retaliate for what you percieve as a (totally unintended on my part, btw) slight or two.

 

[James Blandings]

I'm going to get in trouble for posting the following. I know i am, or i'm afraid i am, anyway.

A sudden, related, and extremely troubling thought: why should i suddenly feel afraid to voice my opinions in this place after having been a part of this community since its inception?



Ahem.
James and i and a few others have more years of experience with BDSM in our real lives than many here have years of life.

I've been doing this for 30 years.
James has been doing it for longer, i think.

Our view of what is BDSM has been shaped and forged by forces that most of you will never have any first-hand knowledge of. Maybe we really cannot see the value that some of you hold regarding what is to us such a transparently fake kinda BDSM.

Perhaps our ideas of the value of skin-to-skin BDSM, the only kind available until 6 or 7 years ago, versus that offered by adherents of chat room style BDSM are never ever going to dovetail in any but the most uneasy manner.

One last thing. We've earned our feelings and have a right to express them, same as anyone here.



Disclaimer: I've used James' nick libreally here but i haven't talked to him about this and don't know if he's in agreement with my ideas. Please don't hold him accountable for anything i've said if you feel a need to retaliate for what you percieve as a (totally unintended on my part, btw) slight or two.

cym, I agree with you.
I do not presume that online d/s is without value to those who participate, but I wished to try to find out if it had a broader value to the community as a whole.
In response I have been told that there is nothing lacking in online bdsm, but only in my own willingness to learn.
From my perspective, I consider the inquiry closed. The lack of a satisfactory answer is in itself a clear answer to me.

 

[BBD]

Perhaps there's no satisfactory answer because you've already come to the conclusion that there could be no satisfactory answer? Not to be flippant, but if having more experience than others comes across, whether intentionally or not, as not finding the opinions of "newcomers" particularly relevant...then what's the point of discussion with anyone who can't compare when it comes to time spent in the lifestyle?

But then...thinking about it some more, and after the further clarification of the initial question...maybe there is nothing to be learned. Online is, for all intents and purposes, a reflection of real life. A skewed reflection in many cases, maybe, but it's still a reflection. That being the case, everything you can learn online is something you can learn r/t.

In some cases, the fact that it's possible to learn it r/t doesn't mean that a person will. If for no other reason, because they don't have exposure to anything that will help them learn in r/t. Supposing that is the case, and a person is exposed to BDSM on this forum (for example), and learns more here...or in a chat room geared towards discussion instead of the more common cyber sex sort...in that isolated case, the online community has something to offer that r/t doesn't. Not that real time can't, just that it doesn't for whatever reason.

With all that being said, in your case...from what I gather...there most likely isn't anything you could learn outside of what KillerMuffin and a couple others referred to as far as discussion and self discovery with people you might not come into contact with in your daily life. That would be peculiar to your situation, however, and quite a few others...but it's not the same for everyone.

 

[KillerMuffin]

No, you shouldn't be afraid to post what you want to here.
But here is your answer.

There is absolutely nothing that online BDSMers can teach you that can be taken directly into your R/L BDSM relationship.

I fail to see why anyone would ask a question that they already knew the answer to.

I am losing a great deal of respect for you, James Blandings, and this I find to be a terrible loss.

 

[CarolineOh]

The turn this thread has taken just makes me sad. KillerMuffin and James Blandings are two of the posters I respect the most on all of Lit. and to see them at odds over such an inconsequential issue is disheartening.

JB, I think you made your point about online bdsm, and I think it is valid, but I also believe the way you went about it was more provocative than it needed to be, and I think you have left an impression of antagonism towards online bdsm that is greater than your actual feelings.

KM, I think you have been somewhat unfair to James, and ascribed bad motive when none was intended. I take him at his word that he was open to enlightment on this issue, but did not receive it.

I would hope that we would all assume good will on each other's parts, and agree to respect the willingness of all parties to both learn and teach in this forum. The two of you have so much you can teach each other, and the rest of us, and so much you can each learn, not only from each other, but from every other poster here. The wonderful thing about learning is that you don't always realize you're doing it.

So kiss and make up. Or you can both kiss me and call it making up

 

[James Blandings]

Thank you, Caroline.
I accept the validity of your criticism, and appreciate that you understand my intentions.
For my part, I respect and admire KillerMuffin, and regret that our exchange has diminished her respect for me. I hope that she will be open to allowing me opportunity to restore it.
I hope we can all take to heart your advice, simply and eloquently stated: assume good will.

 

[blueyedheartbandit]

It is my hope....

that no harm comes from this discussion as it is a valid one. I have put my thoughts here a couple of times, and I'm afraid i must do it again....
KillerMuffin, please take no offense at what I am going to say, but I feel that I must say it. You are denying a whole area of BDSM by saying that

There is absolutely nothing that online BDSMers can teach you that can be taken directly into your R/L BDSM relationship.

That is unfair and untrue. I have had online relationships with other BDSMer's and found them to be both wonderous and satisfying each in their own way. No, it is nothing like r/l but then again, what is??? Unless you have tried it, you have no right to knock it at all, that would be like me coming to you and saying "I have no r/l experience, but you have nothing to offer me." It makes me go "Huh?"
I believe that ANY experience you have with BDSM is valuable, even the bad ones, they alone teach you what you DON'T want, and the good teach you what you DO want. It's unfair to lump all online into that "totally worthless" group. It's narrow minded in my opinion.
and James, when you say it's like putting training wheels on a bike that you already know how to ride, what do you call getting information from r/l people? When you talk to another Dom/me about things, be it new toys or whatever, are you not gaining knowledge? In any edeavor that you make into this life style you learn and grow as a Dom/me or sub, YOU LEARN FROM IT ALL.
Hope my thoughts didn't offend, and if they did, i apologize in advance, i just feel strongly about this.
Too many times online Dsr's are pushed aside as worthless and we are not. I have r/l experience, i have grown from it, as i have grown from online. Again, i say try it, with an open mind, you may find that it's not all that bad.


Bandit

 

[catalina_francisco]

bump...

 

[fyrehardt]

A slightly different side of the coin

i've known Sir for over 7 years now. me and Him started out as real life friends, and when He moved about 4 hours away from me, we remained close courtesy of the internet.
We spent most of those years bouncing back and forth between friends and lovers, with a few periods of distance when "real life" came between us. As time went on, our online friendship/relationship started getting stronger...we both realized we were getting the love and attention from each other that we were wanting from our respective "significant others".
After a while we started "playing" online, mostly flirting, then after a while having the occasional round of cyber-sex, usually with a nice dose of the real-life version thrown in when He managed to come visit me.
One day, while we were "playing", out of the blue He...well, it's hard to explain...basically He played a hunch and it turned from normal vanilla play into Him taking over, calling me names and "Telling" me what to do...that night He turned me into His little slut...and i Loved it...
Afterwards we talked about it....i asked Him why the thought had even occurred to him...and the many months and years of us "pretending to be together" while forced to be apart had given Him insights into me that had showed Him that despite so many years having to be the responsible/controlling adult, that i had a submissive side that i kept buried. Real life had always made me believe that "submission" was a weakness...it never even occurred to me to mention it to Him because i had never seen any reason to believe He would understand it.
After a few weeks of playing, we did our first "real life" scene together during His next visit, and it was just as hot and special as what we had shared online...but i don't believe that we would have ever explored that side to our "relationship" if not for the freedom and intimacy of our online relationship...
Now, a couple months later, here i am, Sir's soon to be collared pet, waiting impatiently for tax-time when i will move up there to be with Him...finally able to sit at His feet and take care of Him in real life...

 

[incubus'_sub]

I also communicate with a lover I have had for 30 years (yikes !!) with Incubus' knowledge & occasional participation.

I don't consider our relationship to be an online one as we really do know each other very well, we just rarely meet now due to distance.

Knowing someone who moves away and keeping in close contact is not the same thing that is being discussed here.

I have to agree with James and no, I would not be prepared to do online either. Trust ?? it's always brought up as something onliners value and in so many cases complain about when they realise it's been misplaced. Whip yourself 50 times & tell me how wet you are.......yeah, right. Who on earth is so gullible?

I have bred & shown horses to National Champ level for many years. I have a lot of knowledge tucked away in the old brain. I also know that I will never be a fantastic rider from reading, online chatting or anything else except real life years of practice and dedication, however I could make myself quite believable as one if I wanted to try it online. It's exactly the same principle.

 

[Netzach]

This should be obvious

old argument, but what people doing D/s at a distance , phone or internet, can teach others, I think is simply this:

"How to use language in a scene and how to use language as the aphrodesiac it really is."

It's not something I could not think up in real life, but talking dirty *is* an art, and I don't feel like I'm better at it only because my partners happen to be in the room with me. I have vocally trained several over the phone to certain tasks and responses prior to meeting. I think we can all stand to value verbalization in our scenes and relationships.