RjThoughts
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"Romance Porn", sounds appropriate. In the case, "Damaged Character Romance Porn" or "Romance Pron" sounds better.
A Rant on the Perniciousness of "Damaged" Characters in BDSM Stories
- Thread starter desertslave
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"Romance Porn", sounds appropriate. In the case, "Damaged Character Romance Porn" or "Romance Pron" sounds better.
Stella_Omega
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Well, "The Bird with a Broken Wing" is a well-known romance trope anyway.
I like "Romance Porn." it's more accurate and only describes the material, not the assumed readers.
RjThoughts
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I read what some term as "Guy Fiction," Cussler, Preston&Child, Rollins, Berry. I find it easier to say at times than "Polysyllabic Partial-Historical Action/Adventure."
Stella_Omega
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I've always called that "Action Adventure."
It isn't a harlequin, while the story has typical romance over the top stuff, the girl in distress, wild plot, etc, it is a bit more sophisticated then that IMO. I didn't find it badly written, but then again, I also wasn't looking to rip the book apart as many people seem to go into it, the BD/SM people who scoff at its portrayals, the wanna be authors jealous and so forth. I think part of the problem is people read only the first book and don't get to the rest of it and that causes problems as well, because large parts of the story come out in the latter books. I also will add the book has sold now close to 20 million copies worldwide, and while some of that is curiosity, I think it means a lot of people found it enjoyable (why do I say that? Because all three volumes have sold in that kind of number).
Obviously it is a matter of opinion, people cite books like Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre as 'class literature romances' and I find both of them to be victorian drivel *shrug*
Bingo, Stella, nicely put..and I am getting tired of the mommy porn nonsense. Yes, it has sparked something in women, I think it is a book that is waking them up to the idea of getting what they want, being the center of things, as Ana is in the book with Christian.
As far as doing research I don't know what kind of research she needed to be doing, because this was not intended to be a BD/SM lifestyle book (I suspect some of those leveling that haven't read the book). Christian is a fucked up person, he is someone who had a horrible childhood and is used by an older woman when he is still under age and because of that is fucked up royally, can't have a relationship in the normal sense, and the woman who fucked him up used him as a sub....What Christian does is not BD/SM, I would agree, rather he takes the concepts of BD/SM and uses them to try and have some sort of sexual relationship with women without having a relationship...which makes it not BD/SM but rather a screwed up person using it as a crutch....... BD/SM to the author was simply a mechanism to bring the characters together and the point of the book is Ana finds her voice and says no to Christian and forces him to love her like someone in love is supposed to do.
Quite frankly, I am not exactly a newbie to the world of BD/SM or D/s, have been lifestyle at times, continue to play, and it puzzles me when people say 'she should have done her research', not sure what people mean (and I am puzzled)...some of the comments I heard were plain asinine, like he didn't mention the 4 positions of submission or some other made up protocol the person used; others pointed out that Christian allows the sub too much freedom, and so forth......at the level the book required, there was nothing I saw that was as outrageous as I have read in other books, he lays out the rules for the sub in a contract and negotiates with them about limits and such, which last I checked is how people generally do it . Sure there isn't a lot of detail, there isn't all the nitty gritty, but in a book like this it isn't important, since this is not meant to be a BD/SM story (and the later books have very, very little of that), it is the story of Ana growing up and Christian starting to really heal, he learns from Ana because she won't put up with his shit, and she helps him see how the older woman fucked him up and how he needs to deal with his past, and that has pretty much zero to do with BD/SM.
50 Shades sold something like 100,000 copies as an e-book long before it started hitting the media, and that is a lot of books for something with literally no publicity. Saying it is all media hype is simply false, when something gets to the best seller lists without any kind of publicity, that says something. Take a look at goodreads, take a look at Amazon's ratings and look at the dates of the comments, and you will see that the books were getting thousands of comments, mostly positive, long before it hit the press and the mommy porn garbage started and the like (and yeah, the term is crapola, it is dismissive). The publicity has only happened within the last couple of months and these books have been out there a bit more then a year.
Of course, the media and then a mainstream publisher buying the rights are why it is selling in the 10's of millions, but again it has sold a lot of books long before that on word of mouth, and that means something. Also, the fact that all three books are selling huge numbers means something; if the first book sold 10 million but the others sold a lot less, that would mean people bought the first book because of hype, read it then said WTF and dropped it..but all three are selling, which means people read it and then buy the next 2, which means they liked it.
And yes, the bashing of these books reminds me of what the 'literary' types did with Harry Potter, they denounced it as 'not good literature', the pundits and english professors and the 'inteligensia' denounced it, but know what? It sold because people loved it (and yes, the original book sold well long before the media picked it up).
It is interesting that the religious wrong haven't made more of a case, though I hear the local representative in Rome, Cardinal "pay em off' Dolan (he who offered priests accused of pedophilia basically bribes to leave the priesthood) did a sermon about a month ago decrying recreational sex and sex 'getting away from the purpose of procreation' and cited 50 shades and the fact that woman are getting their husbands to cheapen sex and make it into something 'not sacred' (jokes on him, doesn't know what he is missing, the poor dear...)
How about "adult romance" as opposed to the stuff you saw in the old harlequin romances and such, that was written on about a 13 year old girls vision of what love and sex were
RjThoughts
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I tried to read the first book and the romance aspect turned me off. My sisger-in-law read the entire series and agreed with many, the writing improved, but wasn't so impressed as to why it is such a world-wide hit.
RjThoughts
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There were some arguements on the Barnes and Noble boards over it. I paid little attention, since it was in the romance threads. And probably had heated discussions on Amazon as well.
Stella_Omega
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1) The old harlequin romances were kinda sorta adult, but not pornographic.How about "adult romance" as opposed to the stuff you saw in the old harlequin romances and such, that was written on about a 13 year old girls vision of what love and sex were
2) 50 Shades, while pornographic, is not exactly adult.
3) I don't know about you, but I think porn should be called porn.
Truth. Tarooth!
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desertslave
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Stella_Omega
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Lauren's batting a thousand tonight...
Netzach
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OK, so there's one MORE reason why if you don't want a rich flawed man to fix your life, spank you and give you RULES as your jill off material you can feel like there's something clearly desperately WRONG with you - and now you must not criticize it lest you hurt someone's feeeewings.
/feminist wtfuckity fuck reaction
I think the smartbitches blogger is missing a point. Why THIS and why NOW and tell me it has nothing to do with this hypocritical woman hating double standard and invasive state?
Basically if you're a submissive het woman, you have the entire genre of romance. You have it validating you, pulling down your panties and licking you to climax 24/7. All you have to do is twist it a few more degrees to the right mentally.
Let's say you are one of the 2 women on earth who apparently do NOT deeply secretly want to be raped by swarthy pirates. You get????
?????
And then you have to start to ask yourself, is rape/ravishment/submission desire endemic to being female, being human (and I think it's more the latter, because as I've reminded myself, the shocker isn't in how many women have this desire, but how many men do as well ) or is it something that we're being driven towards because it's all you're ever given? I mean if I were even five percent more amenable to all that jazz I'd probably have given in at some point - God knows I've tried to find it hot because that's what's hot, amiright?
I mean I'm pretty sure that my fantasy life is different from most of the other girls because it's had almost daily opportunities to get turned on by the "bad boy rescues woman from life of boredom with man who worships her" archetype in the typical fashion since I opened my eyes on this world, and it just isn't happening. I'm pretty sure that more women on earth than just me are wired the way I am, but it's a bitch of a time finding one another, and it's a product of some pretty strong innate aversion when the entire culture tries and fails to get you with a program.
This is exactly why I watch movies where things explode when I need an escape, because sometimes sometimes if I close my eyes and I listen to the noises men are making under duress I might accidentally get turned on once in a while.
But it's a lot of work.
I do feel entitled to get annoyed as fuck that everyone else gets her porn, and that these masses of "I'm entitled to my erotica" het mommies were silent when MY porn and my life as a producer of erotic content is being banned, ostracized, legally threatened, and whatever else.
I'm resentful that suddenly, now that submissive M/f heterosexuality is on the table, everyone's basically bending over backward and now being turned on MIGHT BE OK.
When has submissive female heterosexuality ever NOT BEEN OK?
Never. Never and never. Unless it's actually about the state and really just a vehicle. (De Sade)
---- so I guess I find damaged characters much more fine and OK, in short, because I expect everyone to BE damaged by this, because I've been damaged by this, because it - meaning EVERYTHING in terms of sexuality - IS damaged, because the things that turn me on are the product of damage that cannot be fixed and has to be negotiated and navigated. It's not cheerful, but the trick is to fuck cheerfully anyway. I have very little patience with people who have been SO validated that they don't have to acknowledge that being fully sexual and fully healthy in a sexually deranged culture are NOT compatible.
/feminist wtfuckity fuck reaction
I think the smartbitches blogger is missing a point. Why THIS and why NOW and tell me it has nothing to do with this hypocritical woman hating double standard and invasive state?
Basically if you're a submissive het woman, you have the entire genre of romance. You have it validating you, pulling down your panties and licking you to climax 24/7. All you have to do is twist it a few more degrees to the right mentally.
Let's say you are one of the 2 women on earth who apparently do NOT deeply secretly want to be raped by swarthy pirates. You get????
?????
And then you have to start to ask yourself, is rape/ravishment/submission desire endemic to being female, being human (and I think it's more the latter, because as I've reminded myself, the shocker isn't in how many women have this desire, but how many men do as well ) or is it something that we're being driven towards because it's all you're ever given? I mean if I were even five percent more amenable to all that jazz I'd probably have given in at some point - God knows I've tried to find it hot because that's what's hot, amiright?
I mean I'm pretty sure that my fantasy life is different from most of the other girls because it's had almost daily opportunities to get turned on by the "bad boy rescues woman from life of boredom with man who worships her" archetype in the typical fashion since I opened my eyes on this world, and it just isn't happening. I'm pretty sure that more women on earth than just me are wired the way I am, but it's a bitch of a time finding one another, and it's a product of some pretty strong innate aversion when the entire culture tries and fails to get you with a program.
This is exactly why I watch movies where things explode when I need an escape, because sometimes sometimes if I close my eyes and I listen to the noises men are making under duress I might accidentally get turned on once in a while.
But it's a lot of work.
I do feel entitled to get annoyed as fuck that everyone else gets her porn, and that these masses of "I'm entitled to my erotica" het mommies were silent when MY porn and my life as a producer of erotic content is being banned, ostracized, legally threatened, and whatever else.
I'm resentful that suddenly, now that submissive M/f heterosexuality is on the table, everyone's basically bending over backward and now being turned on MIGHT BE OK.
When has submissive female heterosexuality ever NOT BEEN OK?
Never. Never and never. Unless it's actually about the state and really just a vehicle. (De Sade)
---- so I guess I find damaged characters much more fine and OK, in short, because I expect everyone to BE damaged by this, because I've been damaged by this, because it - meaning EVERYTHING in terms of sexuality - IS damaged, because the things that turn me on are the product of damage that cannot be fixed and has to be negotiated and navigated. It's not cheerful, but the trick is to fuck cheerfully anyway. I have very little patience with people who have been SO validated that they don't have to acknowledge that being fully sexual and fully healthy in a sexually deranged culture are NOT compatible.
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When has female heterosexuality not been ok? I think as a question that is the wrong question, the real question is when was male heterosexuality ever not been ok, and that would be legitimate. All you have to do is look at the old double standard, where a male who sleeps around is a stud and a female a slut and you have QED...female heterosexuality for a long time was only ok as long as she was giving it to her husband, and her duty was to please him. Christianity especially the dear old RC said that it was a woman's duty to please her husband, it was her 'duty'. When the law in the 1960's got around to trying to pass laws making rape by a husband of his wife a crime, there was tremendous pushback from the religious community, arguing that a husband couldn't rape his wife (with the direct implication that it was always her duty to 'give him sex' so if he took it, well, that was his right). In the Arab world they practice so called 'female circumcision' , that basically takes away a women's ability to enjoy sex, think it is all so okay? When women were raped, it wasn't until the late 70's that courts finally stopped the completely horrible defense that a women must have been 'asking for it', they would question whether she had sex with her boyfriend, they would point out what she was wearing, and claim 'she was asking for it'. Lady Chatterly's Lover, where a woman takes a lover, was banned and burned and condemned, when there have been shitloads of books written featuring men with lovers (Christ, Opera wouldn't exist without cheating men), and no one says anything about it.
Part of the backlash against the pill was that with it, women no longer had to fear getting pregnant, and those opposed to it were saying it had opened (and I am using exact words here, "Pandoras Box"), that it was laying the ground for promiscuity and such..which is interesting, so a women doesn't have to fear getting pregnant, and that unlocks promiscuity? Meanwhile, men had been catting around for centuries, but I never quite heard them denouncing men sleeping around quite as strongly. When lawyers were taking the infamous law in connecticut banning the sale of condoms and the pill in that state (which went to the supreme court and became the famous griswold decision, setting the precedent for the right to privacy) those who put that law in place, primarily the local bishops and clergy of the RC, said the law was needed to curtal 'licentious behavior' and specifically pointed out that the pill had the means to unleash "a whirlwind of licensciousness' , which doesn't take a genius to figure out.
I also will add that straight porn has had its problems, and it didn't just come from the right wing religious types. Back in the 70's and 80's feminist groups, working with the evangelical Christians, and those two fucking geniuses Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin, tried to get porn banned (which, btw, would have included hard core and erotica, prob 50 shades of gray as well if it existed) on the grounds it 'harmed women'. The supreme court rightfully said these laws were so broad based and the reasoning behind them so convoluted and difficult to prove, that it was a gross violation of the first amendment. However, they passed a national law in Canada based on their work, and suddenly there was an outcry, especially from the lesbian community, when suddenly lesbian erotica and porn was banned as well, couldn't be shipped by the mail, and there were even real problems getting sex toys and such, and suddenly they discovered that it is a poor sword that doesn't cut two ways......
And my answer to your question is whatever these women did or didn't do in the past, they are being changed by these books, in large or small ways, and it is how things change. Maybe after reading these books and getting turned on, the next time someone like fucking Rudy Giuliani (who has become Mr. Catholic and Mr. Family values in the past 10 years or so, when for a while he lived with a gay couple who were friends of his, all of a sudden wants an amendment to ban same sex marriage) is running around playing morality police, or the federal government as they did under Reagan came up with a commission that wanted to make america "christian' again (guess that means sex is only for babies, to be done with the lights out and only as much as needed to produce the 7 or 8 kids the church thought was great) and tried to find 'science' to ban it, they will speak up..once people understand that erotica or porn is nothing to be afraid of, maybe they won't stand for it since they are affected; maybe the next time you have someone like Linda Fairstein who railroaded a man into jail for sexual abuse after consensual s/m (among other things, she got e-mails suppressed indicating that the man and girl had agreed to meet for sm play) and said "no one can consent to being tied up and beaten/whipped, there is no such thing as consensual sadomasochims", or some feminist dips hit decries it as 'legalized abuse', they will respond and say collectively 'shut the fuck up'.
In effect, what the post I am quoting is saying is 'they weren't there when my stuff was being banned, so why the hell should I care about their stuff".....the answer is, getting revenge only helps the real enemies out there, the morons, left and right, who cannot fathom that there are people out there who have different ideas of how to live. I strongly support the rights of gay men and women to get married, to have full protection under the law, yet many gay men and lesbians, even to this day, are busy throwing trans people under the bus because they think we hurt 'their' image (and I apologize to the many who understand what being different or queer means, to the many wonderful gay and lesbians (and people I can't really categorize easily!) who helped me and more like myself), yet I would support their right to live their lives as I support my own right to do so, it isn't a zero sum game, and to me anything that broadens perspectives is only a help to everyone IMO.
All I have to say is the three books have been read by many millions of people out there, and I would be willing to bet that many of them who read it will be a lot more sympathetic to LGBT or sexual minorities then they were before, and ever little bit helps, since it is exposure and understanding that leads to change. Put it this way, within a generation or two, when the generations who so strongly believed the drivel that there RC church and the other idiots put out there about sexuality and gays especially, have passed away, things like same sex marriage, porn and prob even BD/SM will be no big deals any more; I talk to a lot of young people, in their 20's and 30's, and they are kind of fascinated at the hub about 50 shades of gray; not that they are into BD/SM (or if they are never heard it brought up), but rather that anyone would make that big a deal about a book that featured some form of sex in it, that people were upset about it or clucking about it *shrug*.
Netzach
>semiotics?
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Yeah, I'm kind of aware of the history of the world on that level. I said "at what point has submissive female heterosexuality been not OK" - none of it is OK but some pigs are more equal than others - and I'm kind of tired of doing the work and taking the risks while my vanilla hetero oh I like to be spanked tee hee friends get more and more and more validated and stroked and catered to while I get reminded more constantly and more painfully that I have to watch movies where things blow up in order to invent the wheel if I want to be included in any kind of media or mass dreaming.
However, I can live with it. I have adjusted my expecatations. I definitely consider this a low priority problem in the grand scheme of things. How often are people of color represented in ways in romance, fiction, media, movies - outside of a set of tropes? Point is - you're not alone, get in line, if you fail to see yourself in mainstream culture as you'd like to be seen.
Call me crazy, but when I compare the response that most women who are being abused get from the system, the state, and the culture to the few and far between cases that the NCSF has to deal with, I see collateral damages. Unfortunate collateral damages, and I can be bitten in the ass along with anyone else - but why do we have mandatory reporting in the first place? Because it was even worse.
I can't find the equivalency between the threat to my way of life because I'm a pervert who hits people to the threat to my partner's way of life because my partner's parts are different from hir driver's license - it's just ain't there. Nor can I really feel that my right to hit people NEEDS equal air time with women's right NOT to be hit in court. Sorry, just can't. I can take a number, it's OK, go in front of me.
At no point are these people going to "check their privilege." You are dreaming. I too, was dreaming for an instant, but had this identical discussion with a gay man the other day, and he said "and where were these people when..." and by God, I realized he's right. You're also right that people who are kept awake at night by these things politically are eventually going to go away. The ranks of people who are kept awake at night by these things personally is growing, if anything, and puts bread on my table.
They're going to rub it out to THEIR book and vote yes on hate shit. Take the pulse of twilight readership, because remember this was twilight fanfic. You see the potential for small incremental change, and I compare this to Fear of Flying and the role it played, and the way it was dismissed and hated on because women bought it, and I'm not sure I'm so into where we're going. I don't think any amount of wondering whether this is reactionary and creeptastic is automatically because the wonderer is anti-sex or anti-kink.
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BiBunny
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I just wanted to stop by and say that I'm appalled that there are people out there who don't love Jane Eyre, my most favoritest book of all time.
Wuthering Heights, however....*Shudder*
Ok, I have too much of a headache to contribute anything useful to the conversation at this point. Over and out.
Wuthering Heights, however....*Shudder*
Ok, I have too much of a headache to contribute anything useful to the conversation at this point. Over and out.
I'm not sure why people are looking for an external source to validate their sexuality. Who the fuck cares what goes on in other peoples bedrooms/dungeons/bathrooms/pool hall? Yeah, the portrayal of BDSM in the mainstream (damaged goods that need to be 'fixed') is annoying, but I don't look to other people to tell me that what turns me is ok. It's ok because it feels fucking good. That's what matters at the end of the day.
Stella_Omega
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Huh.
I never got the least bit of "fem sub is bad" from that article. Maybe I missed a para?
I never got the least bit of "fem sub is bad" from that article. Maybe I missed a para?
LaRascasse
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Another example...
If any of you remember, there was an episode in the last season of the TV series Criminal Minds where BDSM was a focal point.
Here BDSM was shown as abusive and psychotic. The "Dom" in question was nothing more than a sadistic psychopath and the "sub" was unwilling, held against her will because her child was collateral.
Even I, who does not live the lifestyle or know all that much about it, could see that it was a completely skewed representation of the subculture which prides itself on "safe, sane, consensual" practices.
In my opinion the problem is that if they show BDSM as something normal people can indulge and still have proper lives, it would not go down well with the majority of viewers. They need to see the practitioners as "damaged and broken" so that it somehow "justifies" their desires.
Just my 2 cents.
If any of you remember, there was an episode in the last season of the TV series Criminal Minds where BDSM was a focal point.
Here BDSM was shown as abusive and psychotic. The "Dom" in question was nothing more than a sadistic psychopath and the "sub" was unwilling, held against her will because her child was collateral.
Even I, who does not live the lifestyle or know all that much about it, could see that it was a completely skewed representation of the subculture which prides itself on "safe, sane, consensual" practices.
In my opinion the problem is that if they show BDSM as something normal people can indulge and still have proper lives, it would not go down well with the majority of viewers. They need to see the practitioners as "damaged and broken" so that it somehow "justifies" their desires.
Just my 2 cents.
dexwebster
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There's a difference between needing external validation for it and constantly being told your sexuality is bad and evil and wrong. Even if left to your own devices you'd be perfectly content, when every public image you see is mockery or finger-wagging or sensationalism, it can be demoralizing to feel like you have to defend it 24/7.
lovecraft68
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Personally I liken the way people see The BDSM Lifestyle to the way homosexuality was viewed years ago.
The "norms" as I call them felt homosexuality was deviant behavior, there had to be something wrong with them because its not "natural"
Things have come a long way in that sense, but yet people still look at BDSM as there has to be something wrong,
They ask "How can someone get off on being humiliated, how can they think inflicting pain is exciting?"
There has to be something wrong with us. They think that to flat out make them feel better about themselves.
The norms are not okay unless they have a target to try to point at and make them feel better than.
For some reason human nature is based on the calling out anything different from themselves rather than simply accepting it.
People have the right to think that I'm a little twisted. BUt for me its their opinion run with it, I leave it be.
But for them it can't stay that I'm a little twisted, they need to know why, they need to understand, they need to want to "help" or to sit back and condemn.
What we need to realize is that as individuals we owe no explanation to anyone but ourselves. If we are comfortable in all we do, that's enough.
People mock what they don't understand, its been that way since the dawn of time.
Personally I would rather be considered dark, or sick, or whatever they think.
Because the alternative would mean I'm one of them. A boring dried up person who at the seat of all their prejudice is jealous that their are people out there who have not conformed there entire lives as they have.
I am happy to be me as we all should be.
Sticks and stones people.
The "norms" as I call them felt homosexuality was deviant behavior, there had to be something wrong with them because its not "natural"
Things have come a long way in that sense, but yet people still look at BDSM as there has to be something wrong,
They ask "How can someone get off on being humiliated, how can they think inflicting pain is exciting?"
There has to be something wrong with us. They think that to flat out make them feel better about themselves.
The norms are not okay unless they have a target to try to point at and make them feel better than.
For some reason human nature is based on the calling out anything different from themselves rather than simply accepting it.
People have the right to think that I'm a little twisted. BUt for me its their opinion run with it, I leave it be.
But for them it can't stay that I'm a little twisted, they need to know why, they need to understand, they need to want to "help" or to sit back and condemn.
What we need to realize is that as individuals we owe no explanation to anyone but ourselves. If we are comfortable in all we do, that's enough.
People mock what they don't understand, its been that way since the dawn of time.
Personally I would rather be considered dark, or sick, or whatever they think.
Because the alternative would mean I'm one of them. A boring dried up person who at the seat of all their prejudice is jealous that their are people out there who have not conformed there entire lives as they have.
I am happy to be me as we all should be.
Sticks and stones people.
It isn't about other people validating our sexuality, it is more about being into this stuff and not having to worry about consequences. The NCSF exists because of those consequences and they aren't trivial. Parents who are into BD.SM have had kids taken away from them, in divorce proceedings spouses have lost parental rights when their opposite number used them being into BD/SM to prove they are not fit parents, and yes, cops have arrested people for BD/SM play and DA's prosecuted for abuse. Sodomy laws didn't just cover gays, they also covered things like BD/SM (thankfully even with the uber religionists masquerading as supreme court judges, one of them had the vision to recognize how stupid laws regulating sexuality are, despite what his church claimed). When you have glorious states like Texas that can make sex with animals legal but make illegal sex between consenting adults that' Jesus don't like' to quote one of their finer citizens, you do have to worry.
missgiter
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So, tonight I was trolling facebook.. and came across a "trending articles link"
Number three was headlined this : Spanking Linked to Mental Illness, Says Study
I'm sure it was about children, and alas the link never loaded for me. I found it quite humorous and felt the need to share this.
Number three was headlined this : Spanking Linked to Mental Illness, Says Study
I'm sure it was about children, and alas the link never loaded for me. I found it quite humorous and felt the need to share this.
