A serious discussion about BDSM and weight

[Netzach]

um, not really what the Libertarians believe. We believe more in the government as designed by the founding fathers, and, not what it has morphed into (i.e. the legal system we have now more or less have agreed upon).

I don't see civil rights law or any and all regulation of corporate activity as a downer, sorry.

 

[subbie_333]

I don't see civil rights law or any and all regulation of corporate activity as a downer, sorry.

Civil rights laws protect the rights of the individual. And, if corporate activity violates the rights of the individual, then, the government needs to step in. The founding fathers acknowledged those rights as being granted by a higher authority, and, not by a government claiming to act as the agent of a higher authority.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Subbie_333 - I said somewhere earlier in the thread, and I think what Netz and JM and ITW are trying to get across to you is that there isn't one simple answer here. There are many contributing factors, the ones given are just a few. It's a complex problem with complex causes and will require complex solutions.

And for shits sake, my daughter's high school has soda machines with soda, iced tea and water in them. They're teenagers. You think if the school replaced the soda machine with a juice machine they'd earn as much money? The government doesn't value education - there's no money in it for them. Schools have to raise money where they can because every year their budgets get cut even further. Soda machines raise money. Over half the kids in the school earn their own money by working. They're kids. Do you really think they give a shit what's in their drink? Not most of them.

Her cafeteria has the standard high fat fare and has a salad and sandwich bar. The cost for the normal lunch is $2.50. The salad/sandwich bar with a bottle of water is $4. If my daughter doesn't have $4, she won't eat. She's in high school. Even if I made her lunch, she wouldn't take it because none of her friends do. It's not cool. Frankly, I'd prefer it if she just took lunch because then I'd have better control over what she's eating. But I'm not stupid enough to not realize that she'd just dump it in the trash on her way out the door. So I have a choice - give her the $4 for lunch everyday and know that she's eating something relatively healthy, or leave her to her own devices and assume she probably is skipping lunch. I'm not willing to opt for the second option, we don't qualify for free or reduced lunch, so I cut corners elsewhere so I can afford the $20 a week it costs for her school lunches. And yes, they have water fountains, but it's unfiltered water. After studying ground water and actually testing Phoenix's water in school last year, the girl won't drink any water that doesn't come out of a sealed bottle. Frankly, I'm with her on that one, too.

 

[BeachGurl2]

The obvious solution here is just to get tied and beaten more often. I could provide some helpful suggestions, you know.

You gonna help me find him, too? Hey, given the choice, I assure you I'd choose your suggestion over what I'm currently doing!

Require the processed food dickwits to put the same sort of warning labels on their products that cigarette companies do.

Surgeon General's Warning: This product contain high fructose corn syrup and will paste lard on your kid's ass.

Surgeon General's Warning: What the fuck is this? It isn't even food! Why are you putting it in your mouth, you moron?!?

Most people don't even know what HFCS is. I never even realized how much it's used until my daughter's allergy problem and I became a label reader.

But your post reminds me of a movie I think I've mentioned around here before. Idiocracy. Anyone seen it? Stupid as hell, but actually worth watching. In the movie, the government allows a gatorade kind of company to replace their ground water with their drink. It kills all the plants. It's funny as hell. But that's the direction we seem to be moving in.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I was addressing the part I quoted, in which you wrote: "I think it was Velvet who brought up a good point earlier in this thread about how in the past, we watched out for each other but now everyone has the mentality that it's no one's business what they do."

In post 323, Velvet wrote: "Who is going to go into these awful projects and estates where people have already been let down by society and their own families and educate the people living on the breadline who buy processed crap almost exclusively? Whose business are they? If somebody puts on a T shirt yelling 'MYOB!' at the world, do we simply cease to care about them?"

Taking you both at your word, and assuming that you are both sincere in wanting to help reduce obesity in our society, I have been offering suggestions on what I believe would help you achieve your goal.

I figured it out after your last post. I agree that an effort much like the one to limit tobacco use is probably the way to go, but there's no money in it so it will be slow in coming. There was money in the tobacco issue because they could sue the tobacco companies.

I am not suggesting that the obese don't have a stand in this.

What I am suggesting is that your time would be better spent lobbying the school board than approaching women with overweight kids and saying: "I read the labels and fed my kids healthy foods. It's doable. You should, too."

I realize you wouldn't be flippant. But for multiple reasons (many of which have been demonstrated on this thread), I think it is rare for such conversations, no matter how carefully crafted, to be effective - or even well received.

I get your point. However, just as you pointed out earlier, schools have to follow the budget. Addressing the PTA won't fix the problem in schools. The schools can't afford better food. At least, not in Arizona. We're at the bottom of the list in school funding, I think only Mississippi is below us now, but I haven't checked since I've been out of education. Bratgirl's school has almost 2,500 students. We're in a low free/reduced rate area but it's still not a priority when they can barely afford to educate them.

And no, I wouldn't be flippant about it. But I do believe that educating parents is a huge step in the right direction. Unfortunately, most of them are too busy trying to make the money to buy the food to have time for that sort of thing. Parents who aren't overwhelmed by life in general are doing what they can. I know this. But it's still so very hard to watch the kinds of kids that Homburg mentioned earlier. To know what their lives will be like as they grow and as they age.

 

[cherokee_dove]

Since this is a thread about "weight", it seems that the argument is being made that obesity is related to people not being able to afford healthy food. OK, i can accept that. And, that school lunches are not healthy. Fine, i agree. And, that poorer people cannot afford to fix meals for their kids and have to get meals at school. OK, i get that. And, that the poorest people cannot afford to pay the full price for school meals. Of course. But, are free/reduced school meals causing obesity in children, say, compared to children who pay the full value of those meals? That's what i am asking. If there is no difference, then, the problem is not how poor the child/family is, it is a problem of the choices being made as to what to serve at school meals.

Yes, it does make a difference. Due to the fact that students who pay full price have the right to choose other items in the ala carte shelf, that the students who gets the free/reduced meals don't get. And that ala carte shelf has salads, fresh fruits, and the more "health conscious" foods on it.

So, let's improve the safety issue *first*. Then, improve parenting skills. We can make corporations improve the quality of the food all we want, but, if families get killed walking back and forth to the grocery store to get those cheaper healthier foods, it doesn't make any difference.

333, look at the world as it is TODAY. Not back in the 1960's.

With the shape of our country and its economy, its hard enough for a family to keep a roof over their heads, food on the table (no matter how healthy), bills paid, and their car fueled up, with a few extra bucks for household expenses.

Take for example, a family of four; two parent, two kids. One parent working two jobs, the other working one. Both kids in school.

The parents have little time between jobs (which they do all them to keep everything paid) to sit down, spend some time with the kids, and each other. Before starting the whole routine over for the next day.

People today are tired. Tired from work, stress, you name it. But they are also tired of how todays government has run this country into the ground.

But do they have time to picket the gas stations, or the fast food places? Or form a group to try to improve their neighborhood safety, or to go to parenting classes 101, or throw a "Love Fest"? NO!!!

Most families are just doing what needs done to just exist, let alone keep fighting the government.

 

[BeachGurl2]

In response to the bolded part...Pot has been proven to be medically useful for those that are bi-polar schizophrenic and for those with AIDS and related diseases.

If for those reasons, it is being used; prescribed or not, to me thats useful and healthy as far as their other problems go.

Just to use pot for recreational use, thats unhealthy.

I wasn't really talking about it from a medical use standpoint, although what you've said is totally valid. I, too, have friends with medical issues that are helped by pot. However, even though the voters of Arizona have now 3 times approved the medical use of marijuana, the Arizona legislature, in its infinite wisdom, has decided the voters don't know what they're voting on, so have vetoed it every time.

The drug use I'm talking about is recreational, not medical.

Just to clarify so people don't think I'm Miss Priss preaching from my pedestal here, I'll give a little background, too. I spent a few years pretty much in a drugged fog. I was on a very big self destructive streak for a variety of reasons - childhood sexual abuse, anorexia, depression and anxiety. So I know firsthand the dangers of drugs. Pot never did it for me, either, just made me really horny, really hungry and really sleepy. My drugs of choice were cocaine and mushrooms. And of course, lots and lots of vodka to wash it all down with. And then I got pregnant. Which was my wakeup call. From 18 to 21, I was a mess. A huge mess. It's amazing I survived it. But getting pregnant was my wakeup call. Can't have a healthy baby and do what I was doing. So I got clean and never went back to it. I much prefer to experience life while I'm lucid.

 

[Netzach]

This one, for me; was easy. Yes, i smoke. Yes, i have tried to quit. No, i can't completely.

i asked the doctor for the patch, found out i am severely allergic to it. So she put me on Chantix. Within one week, i was getting very sick to my stomache and feeling like i was about to pass out from it.

i called her and informed her, and she said; "Well we just got word that Chantix has been proven to cause death in some people. You need to stop taking it immediately." i started vomiting and only thing i could think of was, "and she's a doctor, why?"

Chantix is not always good stuff, indeed. M tried it twice, and both times the suicidal ideation was coming on stronger than I've ever seen. It went buh bye.

I should have known better, every time something new is fast-tracked and all the rage, there are issues.

 

[intothewoods]

I went through a stage with a copy of Atlas Shrugged and a six pack of Belgian beer was my idea of heaven too. It's ok.

bwah ha ha.

Civil rights laws protect the rights of the individual. And, if corporate activity violates the rights of the individual, then, the government needs to step in. The founding fathers acknowledged those rights as being granted by a higher authority, and, not by a government claiming to act as the agent of a higher authority.

Oy vey, what? I have news for you - legally, a corporation is an individual. To quote Bill Clinton: think about that next time you're high.

(Okay, Bill Clinton on SNL)

Yes, it does make a difference. Due to the fact that students who pay full price have the right to choose other items in the ala carte shelf, that the students who gets the free/reduced meals don't get. And that ala carte shelf has salads, fresh fruits, and the more "health conscious" foods on it.



333, look at the world as it is TODAY. Not back in the 1960's.

With the shape of our country and its economy, its hard enough for a family to keep a roof over their heads, food on the table (no matter how healthy), bills paid, and their car fueled up, with a few extra bucks for household expenses.

Take for example, a family of four; two parent, two kids. One parent working two jobs, the other working one. Both kids in school.

The parents have little time between jobs (which they do all them to keep everything paid) to sit down, spend some time with the kids, and each other. Before starting the whole routine over for the next day.

People today are tired. Tired from work, stress, you name it. But they are also tired of how todays government has run this country into the ground.

But do they have time to picket the gas stations, or the fast food places? Or form a group to try to improve their neighborhood safety, or to go to parenting classes 101, or throw a "Love Fest"? NO!!!

Most families are just doing what needs done to just exist, let alone keep fighting the government.

Pretty much.

 

[subbie_333]

Oy vey, what? I have news for you - legally, a corporation is an individual.

i don't understand your point. My point was that when one entity (individual, corporation, even a government) infringes upon the rights of an individual, then, that it wrong. So, Libertarians are not in favor of no governmental control, they are in favor of protecting the rights of individuals. Even if one claims that a corporation is an individual, as an example, that corporation doesn't have the right to pollute the air that individuals have to breathe to survive (we have no choice when it comes to breathing). On the other hand, unless a corporation has a monopoly, then, individuals have the choice to not buy a corporation's product.

 

[subbie_333]

Subbie_333 - I said somewhere earlier in the thread, and I think what Netz and JM and ITW are trying to get across to you is that there isn't one simple answer here. There are many contributing factors, the ones given are just a few. It's a complex problem with complex causes and will require complex solutions.

Actually, *that* is the point i am trying to make. What has upset me is that people are blaming obesity on free school meals, corporations, and, lack of parks. There is a failure to acknowledge existing choices. Then, people say that it is a huge problem, too big, so, they give up and blame others. One of my pet peeves is people who sit around and whine about problems instead of actually doing something about them.

And for shits sake, my daughter's high school has soda machines with soda, iced tea and water in them. They're teenagers. You think if the school replaced the soda machine with a juice machine they'd earn as much money? The government doesn't value education - there's no money in it for them. Schools have to raise money where they can because every year their budgets get cut even further. Soda machines raise money. Over half the kids in the school earn their own money by working. They're kids. Do you really think they give a shit what's in their drink? Not most of them.

So, teenagers are to blame for obesity in teenagers?

If the problem is that there is not enough money in schools, then, fix that. So, somebody made a bad decision to fix the money problem by installing soda machines. Why are we stuck with that choice? Who is responsible for changing that?

Her cafeteria has the standard high fat fare and has a salad and sandwich bar. The cost for the normal lunch is $2.50. The salad/sandwich bar with a bottle of water is $4. If my daughter doesn't have $4, she won't eat. She's in high school. Even if I made her lunch, she wouldn't take it because none of her friends do. It's not cool. Frankly, I'd prefer it if she just took lunch because then I'd have better control over what she's eating. But I'm not stupid enough to not realize that she'd just dump it in the trash on her way out the door. So I have a choice - give her the $4 for lunch everyday and know that she's eating something relatively healthy, or leave her to her own devices and assume she probably is skipping lunch. I'm not willing to opt for the second option, we don't qualify for free or reduced lunch, so I cut corners elsewhere so I can afford the $20 a week it costs for her school lunches.

So, you have weighed the options and you have made a choice. See, i said that there were choices. Now, as to whether or not your child is making good choices and how to fix that, well, that is probably a different discussion.

And yes, they have water fountains, but it's unfiltered water. After studying ground water and actually testing Phoenix's water in school last year, the girl won't drink any water that doesn't come out of a sealed bottle. Frankly, I'm with her on that one, too.

OK, so, we have identified that there is a issue about quality of water. So, how does that get fixed? Or, are you satisfied with leaving things the way they are?



OK, look, all of this is nitpicking, with individuals giving examples of their personal life, giving everybody opportunity to complain, whine, and, get personally insulted. Fine. Let's have guilt trips and pity parties. But, what does that solve? Nothing. Wanna fix stuff? Then, do something. Don't just sit around and complain and make excuses and "make" the government do it. As a society that's what we have been doing for way too long and that's why we are in the mess we are in now. If you *really* want "change", then, do it yourself instead of expecting others to do it for you.

 

[intothewoods]

OK, look, all of this is nitpicking, with individuals giving examples of their personal life, giving everybody opportunity to complain, whine, and, get personally insulted. Fine. Let's have guilt trips and pity parties. But, what does that solve? Nothing. Wanna fix stuff? Then, do something. Don't just sit around and complain and make excuses and "make" the government do it. As a society that's what we have been doing for way too long and that's why we are in the mess we are in now. If you *really* want "change", then, do it yourself instead of expecting others to do it for you.

What makes you think I'm not? I can have a pity party at the same time, although I'd hardly call it that.

 

[serijules]

take the story someone posted about her successful battle to lose 50lbs, destroyed in an instant by nasty skinny people in an ice cream shop. after all that hard work, she chose to treat herself with a sundae. why not a book or a new dress or a pair of earrings? ok, a little treat is just that, but it was a choice she made. she was stared at and ridiculed, not nice, but in her mind she knew she'd had a real personal victory, so...what did she than choose to do? blame the nasty skinny people and use them as an excuse to abandon all her hard work, resume overeating and regained all the lost weight. it was, of course, their fault not hers. it was a sad story and i genuinely feel for her pain but in the end it was the choices that she made, not the fault of someone or something else.

You sure assume a lot.

Why did I treat myself to an ice cream? Cuz yeah, fat people like unhealthy food sometimes too darling. Being fat or being on a diet doesn't mean you suddenly will never eat something yummy again. Ask ANYONE who's ever dieted and they will tell you that cutting out ALL treats is a surefire path to failure. Thus why I chose to treat myself.

I quite clearly said that it wasn't their 'fault'. I also said that people like them certainly are not helping matters by being arrogant self-absorbed dickheads. Their comments were the "straw that broke the camels back" and caused a downward spiral for me in my confidence.

But regardless, I'd rather be fat than be a walking, talking bitchslap.

 

[incubus'_sub]

i'm not assuming anything, i'm just reading what you wrote and seeing the incident in a different way. nor was i being rude.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Well, after the very heated discussions here, I decided to give quitting another shot this week. I haven't smoked since Monday. So far, I haven't caught myself nibbling more than normal for me. But I have found that I have to work to keep my hands occupied more. And I've caught myself nibbling on my cheek. Too bad I'm not in a relationship because I could think of better ways to keep my hands and mouth occupied.

So does anyone know if they have forward tickers so you can keep track of how many non-smoking days you've had?

 

[Recidiva]

Well, after the very heated discussions here, I decided to give quitting another shot this week. I haven't smoked since Monday. So far, I haven't caught myself nibbling more than normal for me. But I have found that I have to work to keep my hands occupied more. And I've caught myself nibbling on my cheek. Too bad I'm not in a relationship because I could think of better ways to keep my hands and mouth occupied.

So does anyone know if they have forward tickers so you can keep track of how many non-smoking days you've had?

Oh, man. Good luck with that and all my hopes of success.

I've been through my husband quitting...three times. The last time has stuck *knock on wood*

He used patches, and I think they helped.

I've never smoked, so I have no insight other than what I've seen works well for others - patches and misery?

 

[BeachGurl2]

Oh, man. Good luck with that and all my hopes of success.

I've been through my husband quitting...three times. The last time has stuck *knock on wood*

He used patches, and I think they helped.

I've never smoked, so I have no insight other than what I've seen works well for others - patches and misery?

Thanks. While I know there is some level of nicotine addiction, for me it's the calming effect the nicotine has. But more than that, it's a physical thing - the hand to mouth thing. Which is one of the reasons people often gain weight when they quit. So far so good. I've quit twice in the past, both times cold turkey - that method works best for me. Stressful events made me start again. Not having a support system for those stressful events makes me reach for them, I think. But I'll make it through. And if I don't, I don't. I'm not going to beat myself up over it.

 

[Recidiva]

Thanks. While I know there is some level of nicotine addiction, for me it's the calming effect the nicotine has. But more than that, it's a physical thing - the hand to mouth thing. Which is one of the reasons people often gain weight when they quit. So far so good. I've quit twice in the past, both times cold turkey - that method works best for me. Stressful events made me start again. Not having a support system for those stressful events makes me reach for them, I think. But I'll make it through. And if I don't, I don't. I'm not going to beat myself up over it.

Good. Good luck!

I have no answers for the stressful events either.

I'm not sure my responses are healthy for others, but they do work for me.

I accept that life sucks, I don't expect it to get any better, I'm just hanging out until I die and finding what stubborn joy or humor that I can in the cracks of all the sucking.

Less of a strategy, more of a stance.

It might be true that no man is an island. I am living proof that at least one woman still keeps on trying.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Thanks. While I know there is some level of nicotine addiction, for me it's the calming effect the nicotine has. But more than that, it's a physical thing - the hand to mouth thing. Which is one of the reasons people often gain weight when they quit. So far so good. I've quit twice in the past, both times cold turkey - that method works best for me. Stressful events made me start again. Not having a support system for those stressful events makes me reach for them, I think. But I'll make it through. And if I don't, I don't. I'm not going to beat myself up over it.

Nicotine does not calm you, in fact it does the opposite. It speeds your body up. You feel calm when you smoke because you are a nicotine addict and your body is edgy until you give it what it wants.
Here is another big mistake people make. You don't gain weight because you eat more, you gain weight because you are slowing your metabolism down greatly by not smoking.

 

[Recidiva]

Nicotine does not calm you, in fact it does the opposite. It speeds your body up. You feel calm when you smoke because you are a nicotine addict and your body is edgy until you give it what it wants.
Here is another big mistake people make. You don't gain weight because you eat more, you gain weight because you are slowing your metabolism down greatly by not smoking.

I was fine with my husband smoking for years.

But after seeing that he was just...constantly irritated and agitated and I was convinced it was the smoking...

I ultimately told him I'd like to know him when he wasn't chemically pissed off all the time. And that's worked out well.

Eventually.

 

[castagnus]

i don't understand your point. My point was that when one entity (individual, corporation, even a government) infringes upon the rights of an individual, then, that it wrong. So, Libertarians are not in favor of no governmental control, they are in favor of protecting the rights of individuals. Even if one claims that a corporation is an individual, as an example, that corporation doesn't have the right to pollute the air that individuals have to breathe to survive (we have no choice when it comes to breathing). On the other hand, unless a corporation has a monopoly, then, individuals have the choice to not buy a corporation's product.

Men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights amongst which are the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happines and to preserve those rights , men institute governments.


You are right on Subbie - couldn't agree wit you more !

 

[SirLeo]

Wtf?

Couldn't we all just get together and have an online BDSM orgy? Jeez so much drama. Good orgasms resolve so many tension related problems....

 

[BeachGurl2]

Nicotine does not calm you, in fact it does the opposite. It speeds your body up. You feel calm when you smoke because you are a nicotine addict and your body is edgy until you give it what it wants.
Here is another big mistake people make. You don't gain weight because you eat more, you gain weight because you are slowing your metabolism down greatly by not smoking.

Actually, the nicotine raises the seratonin levels in your blood, which has a calming effect on at least some people who smoke. My body has an unusual reaction to nicotine. I've never been one of those people who get edgy when I don't have a cigarette. Even now, I'm not edgy. I just don't know what to do with my hands. When I'm not in the middle of doing something. Because I only really smoked when driving alone or when I was doing absolutely nothing at all.

It is true that the lack of nicotine changes your body's metabolism, which is what causes weight gain for many people, but also many people who quit smoking nibble to deal with the oral issues. I don't nibble or eat more, so I'm not really worried about a weight gain of more than maybe a pound or two.