A serious discussion about BDSM and weight

[BeachGurl2]

Taking my cue from both of the above, I'd like to bring in another thought. I was reading both of your posts, and BBs, and thinking of an earlier one, and somehow I was reminded of a passage from C.S. Lewis that I read eons ago.

Often those who are the most "concerned" or "judgmental" (depending on your perspective) are not those who practice a different vice, but the opposite side of the same vice.

Gluttony is defined only as an excess, usually of eating, and the same can be said of sloth, lust, etc. But those who practice an excess of denial could be considered to be equally in the grip of vice. Is the person who allows food, the type, amount and quality eaten, to consume them really any less in the grip of gluttony, only the opposite side of it? Is the person who exercises hours every day really different than the person who is a couch potato?

Neither person is living a balanced life in regards to their particular issue, and often their devotion or enslavement to it has a profound affect on their life and the lives of their families and friends.

I think that often, the person on one side of the coin is often the person who is the most vocally critical of people on the opposite side.

I agree that both are equally unhealthy. And that was sort of where I was going with my big post on vices in general. If you are too far on one side or the other, it's equally unhealthy, in my opinion. Thus the example of my ex's exercise regime - which is unhealthy - and anorexia/bulemia mentioned earlier.

And I think that it is often true that someone who is far on one side of an issue is very vocal against the opposite.

 

[Homburg]

Point? Yes, I have one. It's interesting how external forces can enable your vices or disable them. I stopped expressing interest in much of anything while I was married because as soon as I expressed an interest in it, there were forces at work to keep me from having it. If you have no expectations, you can't be disappointed, right?

Buddha says "Desire is the root of all suffering." Called dukkha in Sanskrit (Mahayana branch) and ku in Japanese and Chinese (Zen and Chan schools), disquietude begins with desire for material things, emotions, experience, etc. Having no expectations is one way to help quell the incessant winds.

Philosophy geekiness aside, your statement here is so very true. If you do not set a certain expectation, there is no way that expectation can not be met, which prevents dissappointment.

I suck at this, by the way.

 

[Homburg]

I never tried to say that my choice in smoking wasn't equally bad. That was, in fact, the point of my posting it. I had chosen one thing that I noticed as becoming an issue in today's society and my questions about it were directly in regards to BDSM. Obviously the other vices listed don't really have much to do with BDSM outside of how they may affect specific people.

I dunno. I can't tell you how many times I've had to wait to start a scene because the bottom was having a smoke break, or hold off on a tie because the photog was having a smoke.

Admittedly, there is a bit of added zest to tying a smoker in something intricate, as you see that nic fit start to kick in after a while. Maybe I'm just mean to recognise that and enjoy it though

 

[JMohegan]

While this one effort may be an example against my point, it's only one example, JM. And while I could argue statistics on both sides of the fight, it would be silly to. Just as it's silly to argue whether the fast food industry needs the same sort of efforts against it. Or alcohol. Or other 'vices'. All of the above are harmful to society as a whole.

I never tried to say that my choice in smoking wasn't equally bad. That was, in fact, the point of my posting it. I had chosen one thing that I noticed as becoming an issue in today's society and my questions about it were directly in regards to BDSM. Obviously the other vices listed don't really have much to do with BDSM outside of how they may affect specific people.

Throughout the thread, people have said it's no one's business the choices they may in regards to their health. That was what my comment referred to. People get up in arms about a cause as long as the cause isn't something that messes with their own choices. When it's something that touches on their choices, then people better back off. Thus, the use of my made-up word 'me-centric'. So what's it going to take to change the trend toward obesity? Especially since we can't talk about it in mixed company?

In my opinion, the trend toward obesity will change if and when people work to prohibit soda machines in public schools, and pressure food companies to stop putting high fructose corn syrup in every goddamn thing, and work to establish reasonably priced healthy food stores in poorer communities, and demand that restaurants post legible calorie counts on menus, and increase funding for health education in the public schools, and work to install bike lanes on major commuter roads, and fight to put parks and playgrounds and recreational centers in local communities, and so on.

That's my honest answer to your question.

I did not pick smoking because you talked about this vice in connection with yourself. I picked it because the data were easy to find, and because I believe the anti-smoking campaign provides an excellent parallel to what could be an effective way to combat obesity in our society.

Notice that in my "work to...." list, everybody's working hard to combat obesity - but the opponent in this fight is not the fat person. The idea is to remove the deleterious conditions that are beyond an individual's control, and make it easier for people to opt for the choices they know they should make.

 

[JMohegan]

Point? Yes, I have one. It's interesting how external forces can enable your vices or disable them.

This is my point, too.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I dunno. I can't tell you how many times I've had to wait to start a scene because the bottom was having a smoke break, or hold off on a tie because the photog was having a smoke.

Admittedly, there is a bit of added zest to tying a smoker in something intricate, as you see that nic fit start to kick in after a while. Maybe I'm just mean to recognise that and enjoy it though

Okay, point taken. I'm not one of those people who really have a problem of nic fits. Many of my friends ask why I don't just quit because my smoking is more mindless than a true addiction. Which is why I tend to do it while I'm bored rather than while I'm busy, I think. When I worked in education, where you can't even have tobacco on school property (In AZ at least), I would work a 9-10 hour day without a smoke. Even now I don't take smoke breaks at work. But when I am totally stressed, the nicotine does relax me - that same fix I seem to get from being tied and beaten, I'm sure. When I quit, I have to do it cold turkey - patches, gum, etc, don't work for me. It's an all or nothing proposition. And for 3-4 days, while the nicotine works itself out of my body, I'm very short tempered. But once it's gone, it's gone. I think it's more a mental crutch at this point than a physical one. So I think about just doing it over the Christmas holidays when I have almost 2 weeks off work. That way I won't piss off my co-workers and customers.

 

[Etoile]

Case in point. I was listing thread topics that caused heated discussion because it is not everyone's kink. Even listing pooch-popping elicits comment.



to Etoile.

Right, because I don't think it is valid. Adult babies, rainbow showers, brown showers, ballooning, feeder/gainer, it's all okay. I may not like some of it, I may find some of it gross, but if it's between consenting adults, it's cool. Bestality (including crushing) is not cool. Not that it's not my kink...just that it's not acceptable, period. There's a difference between "your kink is not my kink" and "your kink is unacceptable."

I'm sooooooo off topic now.

{{hugs}} for homburg

 

[BeachGurl2]

In my opinion, the trend toward obesity will change if and when people work to prohibit soda machines in public schools, and pressure food companies to stop putting high fructose corn syrup in every goddamn thing, and work to establish reasonably priced healthy food stores in poorer communities, and demand that restaurants post legible calorie counts on menus, and increase funding for health education in the public schools, and work to install bike lanes on major commuter roads, and fight to put parks and playgrounds and recreational centers in local communities, and so on.

That's my honest answer to your question.

I did not pick smoking because you talked about this vice in connection with yourself. I picked it because the data were easy to find, and because I believe the anti-smoking campaign provides an excellent parallel to what could be an effective way to combat obesity in our society.

Notice that in my "work to...." list, everybody's working hard to combat obesity - but the opponent in this fight is not the fat person. The idea is to remove the deleterious conditions that are beyond an individual's control, and make it easier for people to opt for the choices they know they should make.

I agree with all of the above, for the most part. I had difficulty responding to your post, JM, because I wasn't sure what it was you were addressing in my post.

I would love to see a lobby against bad nutrition in schools that was successful. Frankly, I don't think teaching our kids about healthy nutrition in health class and then offering the crap they offer in the lunchroom sends the right message. And then to remove PE in budget cuts on top of it all is just plain stupid. Don't even get me started.

My older daughter suffered from allergies when she was very little. She was allergic to all kinds of things, but specifically to preservatives in food. I was a single mom making a pittance having to buy food in the health food stores (this was late 80s, early 90s) which were much more expensive than grocery stores. I had no choice in the matter, though, because to serve her anything else was deadly. I learned how to read food labels really well from the doctor's staff and the pediatric nutritionist. I am still very particular about what I'll buy now because of it.

I guess where the disagreement comes in, which isn't really a disagreement, is in the suggestion that the obese don't have some stand in this. Yes, buying healthy food can be expensive. Making healthy choices in restaurants can be difficult. I think part of the mindset has become that it's just too hard to fight against. I don't agree with that thinking. Yes, it took hours to do my shopping early on when I was struggling with my daughter's allergy problems. It took hours because I had to read every label and then work my budget so I could get what we needed and still afford it. But once I figured out the labels and what kinds of things worked, then I just stuck to what I knew. Yes, it's hard. But it is doable, even on a tight budget.

 

[subbie_333]

In my opinion, the trend toward obesity will change if and when people work to prohibit soda machines in public schools, and pressure food companies to stop putting high fructose corn syrup in every goddamn thing, and work to establish reasonably priced healthy food stores in poorer communities, and demand that restaurants post legible calorie counts on menus, and increase funding for health education in the public schools, and work to install bike lanes on major commuter roads, and fight to put parks and playgrounds and recreational centers in local communities, and so on.

That's my honest answer to your question.

I did not pick smoking because you talked about this vice in connection with yourself. I picked it because the data were easy to find, and because I believe the anti-smoking campaign provides an excellent parallel to what could be an effective way to combat obesity in our society.

The fight against smoking, especially in public, is different from the fight against obesity in a few respects. For one, the tobacco industry flat out lied about the dangers of smoking. The medical community has not lied about the dangers of obesity. i don't think it can be argued that the food industry has intentionally hidden the contents of their products knowing that they kill their customers. Also, someone sitting at the table next to you and eating 5,000 calories for lunch is not going to damage your health, but, them smoking a cigarette is not good for you. Yes, obesity causes a financial burden to society, but, it is not as obvious as the immediate effects of secondhand smoke on some (allergies, simple breathing issues, not liking the smell, etc.)

Notice that in my "work to...." list, everybody's working hard to combat obesity - but the opponent in this fight is not the fat person. The idea is to remove the deleterious conditions that are beyond an individual's control, and make it easier for people to opt for the choices they know they should make.

i don't think i quite understand what you mean by "deleterious conditions that are beyond an individual's control" when your list above was things that provide choices to people, not things that are forced upon them. Nobody is putting a gun to a kid's head to make them buy a soda at school. Nobody has a gun to their head making them eat high fructose corn syrup. Fast food ingredient information is all over the internet. And, the last group of ideas you presented require tax money, and, i am not sure it is the government's role to put a gun to my head and take my tax money to pay for those things - even if somebody else has decided those things are good for the community.

 

[cherokee_dove]

There are many who believe that pot isn't really a drug and shouldn't be categorized as such. I'm not one of those people, but I have a lot of friends who believe so. When does the use of that become a problem? Or unhealthy? I have friends who are very anti-tobacco, but smoke a joint everyday. Is any use unhealthy? What about other drugs? Where's the line between healthy and unhealthy use of drugs?

In response to the bolded part...Pot has been proven to be medically useful for those that are bi-polar schizophrenic and for those with AIDS and related diseases.

If for those reasons, it is being used; prescribed or not, to me thats useful and healthy as far as their other problems go.

Just to use pot for recreational use, thats unhealthy.

My brother is bi-polar, and he uses pot sometimes; to help him keep himself under control. Keeps him mellow and not as aggrevated as when he is not on it.

He stayed with me for awhile, and i did have to set some house rules about it for him. He had to go smoke it at his friends (that smoke it, for whatever reasons ), and NEVER to smoke it here at home.

To be honest, i have smoked it before. A long time ago. It did nothing for me. So i said whats the big deal, and never smoked it again.

i just don't want it around my kids.

But if a drug is prescribed, for you; by your doctor, and it is being monitored progress; that is healthy. Using any other drugs (besides aspirin, Tylenol, vitamins, etc) is to me, unhealthy.

What about alcohol? I like a glass of wine or a margarita on occasion, I've even been known to drink entirely too much at parties and such. But I may often go a month or more between drinks. Alcohol used to hold big appeal for me, but really doesn't anymore. At what point is it unhealthy? When does it become alcohol abuse? I'm tipsy after 2 glasses of wine. Does that make 3 the limit for me between healthy and unhealthy?

As a weekend bartender, i have seen many cases of people drinking and having fun, people overdueing the drinking, and people abusing the alcohol.

If you are out for a night out with your friends, and have whatever amount you are comfortable with (due to size, alcohol percentage within the drink {which varies depending on what type drink}, and tolerance...the amount is different for each person) but still retain your senses, then that is just an occasional night out with friends.

Overdueing, that is when the people barhop from one bar to another, all night long; having maybe one less drink than their comfortable amount, at each bar. Then going to the next bar, doing the same, and so on. That is overdueing the alcohol. That, in long term; or short term, if your driving; is unhealthy.

Abusing the alcohol...thats when i have a customer who will sit at the same spot at the bar, from opening to closing; slowly drinking the same thing, without interaction with any others. When they sit down, they automatically hand over their keys to me. With those people, i do have to set a certain drink limit for them ahead of time; otherwise i risk not only my job if there would be problems, but i risk them drowning themselves in the alcohol.

They are just there for the alcohol. To drown themselves in it. Not just on a once in a while "i had a bad day and need a break" type, but every day, all day and night. Thats abusing, and that is definitely unhealthy.

And yes, i do have a drink at the end of my night. As a stress reliever, from having to deal with all the others.

And then there's tobacco.

This one, for me; was easy. Yes, i smoke. Yes, i have tried to quit. No, i can't completely.

i asked the doctor for the patch, found out i am severely allergic to it. So she put me on Chantix. Within one week, i was getting very sick to my stomache and feeling like i was about to pass out from it.

i called her and informed her, and she said; "Well we just got word that Chantix has been proven to cause death in some people. You need to stop taking it immediately." i started vomiting and only thing i could think of was, "and she's a doctor, why?"

i have been very harsh with myself lately over the amount, and have forced myself to cut back from not only full flavored down to ultra lights; but going from about 1 1/2 packs a day, down to about 12 a day.

i am proud i have gotten myself down that low, but at severe stress times; and there has definitely been a lot of that lately...i keep feeling the pull of the addiction to light up another.

This is an ongoing battle for me, with myself. As there are no programs or groups to help, down here.

If you ever drive thru my town and see a woman popping bubbles and cracking her gum like she was a teeny bopper again; well, you will have seen me in real life. That seems to be the only thing that helps, for me.

 

[JMohegan]

I agree with all of the above, for the most part. I had difficulty responding to your post, JM, because I wasn't sure what it was you were addressing in my post.

I was addressing the part I quoted, in which you wrote: "I think it was Velvet who brought up a good point earlier in this thread about how in the past, we watched out for each other but now everyone has the mentality that it's no one's business what they do."

In post 323, Velvet wrote: "Who is going to go into these awful projects and estates where people have already been let down by society and their own families and educate the people living on the breadline who buy processed crap almost exclusively? Whose business are they? If somebody puts on a T shirt yelling 'MYOB!' at the world, do we simply cease to care about them?"

Taking you both at your word, and assuming that you are both sincere in wanting to help reduce obesity in our society, I have been offering suggestions on what I believe would help you achieve your goal.

I would love to see a lobby against bad nutrition in schools that was successful. Frankly, I don't think teaching our kids about healthy nutrition in health class and then offering the crap they offer in the lunchroom sends the right message. And then to remove PE in budget cuts on top of it all is just plain stupid. Don't even get me started.

My older daughter suffered from allergies when she was very little. She was allergic to all kinds of things, but specifically to preservatives in food. I was a single mom making a pittance having to buy food in the health food stores (this was late 80s, early 90s) which were much more expensive than grocery stores. I had no choice in the matter, though, because to serve her anything else was deadly. I learned how to read food labels really well from the doctor's staff and the pediatric nutritionist. I am still very particular about what I'll buy now because of it.

I guess where the disagreement comes in, which isn't really a disagreement, is in the suggestion that the obese don't have some stand in this. Yes, buying healthy food can be expensive. Making healthy choices in restaurants can be difficult. I think part of the mindset has become that it's just too hard to fight against. I don't agree with that thinking. Yes, it took hours to do my shopping early on when I was struggling with my daughter's allergy problems. It took hours because I had to read every label and then work my budget so I could get what we needed and still afford it. But once I figured out the labels and what kinds of things worked, then I just stuck to what I knew. Yes, it's hard. But it is doable, even on a tight budget.

I am not suggesting that the obese don't have a stand in this.

What I am suggesting is that your time would be better spent lobbying the school board than approaching women with overweight kids and saying: "I read the labels and fed my kids healthy foods. It's doable. You should, too."

I realize you wouldn't be flippant. But for multiple reasons (many of which have been demonstrated on this thread), I think it is rare for such conversations, no matter how carefully crafted, to be effective - or even well received.

 

[Netzach]

Nobody is putting a gun to a kid's head to make them buy a soda at school. Nobody has a gun to their head making them eat high fructose corn syrup. Fast food ingredient information is all over the internet. And, the last group of ideas you presented require tax money, and, i am not sure it is the government's role to put a gun to my head and take my tax money to pay for those things - even if somebody else has decided those things are good for the community.

If I am eight and let's say my mother's occupation is "addict" how exactly am I supposed to avoid "high fructose corn syrup" when it's the only thing available at my school?

Please, tell me what my students should have done. Not that "addict" was the only occupation among the PTA, but it was a popular one.

Let's not even get into things like, oh, how I feel about my life or anything like that.

 

[subbie_333]

If I am eight and let's say my mother's occupation is "addict" how exactly am I supposed to avoid "high fructose corn syrup" when it's the only thing available at my school?

When i was growing up, we had water fountains. They were free and rumor has it that water is good for you. Do schools still have water fountains? And, my parents gave me lunch to take to school. Is that still allowed?

 

[JMohegan]

The fight against smoking, especially in public, is different from the fight against obesity in a few respects. For one, the tobacco industry flat out lied about the dangers of smoking. The medical community has not lied about the dangers of obesity. i don't think it can be argued that the food industry has intentionally hidden the contents of their products knowing that they kill their customers. Also, someone sitting at the table next to you and eating 5,000 calories for lunch is not going to damage your health, but, them smoking a cigarette is not good for you. Yes, obesity causes a financial burden to society, but, it is not as obvious as the immediate effects of secondhand smoke on some (allergies, simple breathing issues, not liking the smell, etc.)

I agree with your first sentence, and much of what follows in the excerpt above.

i don't think i quite understand what you mean by "deleterious conditions that are beyond an individual's control" when your list above was things that provide choices to people, not things that are forced upon them. Nobody is putting a gun to a kid's head to make them buy a soda at school. Nobody has a gun to their head making them eat high fructose corn syrup. Fast food ingredient information is all over the internet. And, the last group of ideas you presented require tax money, and, i am not sure it is the government's role to put a gun to my head and take my tax money to pay for those things - even if somebody else has decided those things are good for the community.

I don't want to derail BG's thread with a rant against the industrial food complex. Suffice it to say, unless you are only eating grains and raw fruits and vegetables grown by you or your neighbor, and animals fed on the same, there are corporate decisions made in this country that have a direct and deleterious effect on your health.

Again, I recommend the Pollan book to which MWY provided a link in this post.

As for menus, I think every restaurant in this country should be required to put calorie counts next to each item on the menu. "Veggie Omelette, 650 calories, $5.95" Just like that.

As for taxes, yes of course those things cost money. That's why it's a fight.

 

[intothewoods]

Right, because I don't think it is valid. Adult babies, rainbow showers, brown showers, ballooning, feeder/gainer, it's all okay. I may not like some of it, I may find some of it gross, but if it's between consenting adults, it's cool. Bestality (including crushing) is not cool. Not that it's not my kink...just that it's not acceptable, period. There's a difference between "your kink is not my kink" and "your kink is unacceptable."

I'm sooooooo off topic now.

{{hugs}} for homburg

Where were you on the last bestiality thread girlfriend?

 

[subbie_333]

I don't want to derail BG's thread with a rant against the industrial food complex. Suffice it to say, unless you are only eating grains and raw fruits and vegetables grown by you or your neighbor, and animals fed on the same, there are corporate decisions made in this country that have a direct and deleterious effect on your health.

You are leaving out a lot of what is in between, where people have a choice. i am simply pointing out that we still have choices, and, that corporations are not removing all the choices from our lives.

 

[JMohegan]

You are leaving out a lot of what is in between, where people have a choice. i am simply pointing out that we still have choices, and, that corporations are not removing all the choices from our lives.

333, walk over to your pantry.

Pick up anything in a can, box, bag, or bottle.

Read the ingredients.

That's part of what I'm talking about here.

 

[Homburg]

Even now I don't take smoke breaks at work. But when I am totally stressed, the nicotine does relax me - that same fix I seem to get from being tied and beaten, I'm sure.

The obvious solution here is just to get tied and beaten more often. I could provide some helpful suggestions, you know.

----

Right, because I don't think it is valid. *snip*

I'm sooooooo off topic now.

{{hugs}} for homburg

Yes, I know. I agree. You'll note that my list included poly, another topic that is not valid under the BDSM umbrella. It's a different animal altogether, if you'll pardon the exceedingly gauche pun. I was looking for topics that incite, not valid BDSM concepts. It's cool. No one here want to bugger, fuck, or trample bugs, right y'all?

I'm liking these hugs. All I have to do to get them is mention kitty-catamites? Rawr.

----

In response to the bolded part...Pot has been proven to be medically useful for those that are bi-polar schizophrenic and for those with AIDS and related diseases.

If for those reasons, it is being used; prescribed or not, to me thats useful and healthy as far as their other problems go.

Read an article recently that cannibanoids were used to kill MRSA. That's so huge it's mind-boggling. A buddy of mine is a surgeon and he stands in for x-rays with no protection as a step to help stave off MRSA.

Is there anything pot can't do? Actually, yes, one thing it can't do is give me anything more pleasurable than a nasty headache, but for glaucoma patients, chemo patients, cancer sufferers, and sundry other folks, medical marijuana is good stuff.

Just to use pot for recreational use, thats unhealthy.

Yup, though it's not as bad as recreational tobbaco use. Still, there really isn't anything out there that is good for you to smoke. It's smoke. It's bad for you.

i asked the doctor for the patch, found out i am severely allergic to it. So she put me on Chantix. Within one week, i was getting very sick to my stomache and feeling like i was about to pass out from it.

i called her and informed her, and she said; "Well we just got word that Chantix has been proven to cause death in some people. You need to stop taking it immediately." i started vomiting and only thing i could think of was, "and she's a doctor, why?"

Yow, that's scary! Glad you're off of it.

----

The fight against smoking, especially in public, is different from the fight against obesity in a few respects. For one, the tobacco industry flat out lied about the dangers of smoking. The medical community has not lied about the dangers of obesity. i don't think it can be argued that the food industry has intentionally hidden the contents of their products knowing that they kill their customers. Also, someone sitting at the table next to you and eating 5,000 calories for lunch is not going to damage your health, but, them smoking a cigarette is not good for you. Yes, obesity causes a financial burden to society, but, it is not as obvious as the immediate effects of secondhand smoke on some (allergies, simple breathing issues, not liking the smell, etc.)

Dude, the orca fat 8yr old kid is pretty obvious. That stuff really bothers me. Obese kids ar ebad enough, but the 10yr old kid that wieghs 530lbs and needs a liver transplant due to scarring (something that is becoming FAR more prevalent these days) is scary and sad at the same time.

That said, the food industry is not exactly honest. Trans-fats, HFCS in everything, soy oil being pawned off as olive oil, deliberate misleading on nutrition labels, etc are all things the food industry has been guilty of. Right now there is this lovely series of advertisements in favour of HFCS where they basically say that the hype is just hype and there's nothing wrong with HFCS in moderation. It's just popsicles after all.

Fuck em. They're killing us to make a buck, and we aren't just letting them, we're begging for me.

i don't think i quite understand what you mean by "deleterious conditions that are beyond an individual's control" when your list above was things that provide choices to people, not things that are forced upon them. Nobody is putting a gun to a kid's head to make them buy a soda at school. Nobody has a gun to their head making them eat high fructose corn syrup.

If they are eating school lunch, they're eating HFCS, period. And if that is what they can afford, that is what they eat. Plenty of kids ar eon programs where they get school lunch and/or breakfast for free. Those families cannot afford the alternative, else they would not be eligible for free lunch programs. Those kids don't have a gun to their heads, no, but their alternative is hunger. Which one would you choose?

Fast food ingredient information is all over the internet. And, the last group of ideas you presented require tax money, and, i am not sure it is the government's role to put a gun to my head and take my tax money to pay for those things - even if somebody else has decided those things are good for the community.

Require the processed food dickwits to put the same sort of warning labels on their products that cigarette companies do.

Surgeon General's Warning: This product contain high fructose corn syrup and will paste lard on your kid's ass.

Surgeon General's Warning: What the fuck is this? It isn't even food! Why are you putting it in your mouth, you moron?!?

 

[subbie_333]

333, walk over to your pantry.

Pick up anything in a can, box, bag, or bottle.

Read the ingredients.

That's part of what I'm talking about here.

i am acknowledging that. But, i was responding to your post where you said:

In my opinion, the trend toward obesity will change if and when people work to prohibit soda machines in public schools, and pressure food companies to stop putting high fructose corn syrup in every goddamn thing, and work to establish reasonably priced healthy food stores in poorer communities, and demand that restaurants post legible calorie counts on menus, and increase funding for health education in the public schools, and work to install bike lanes on major commuter roads, and fight to put parks and playgrounds and recreational centers in local communities, and so on.

Sure, it can be argued that it is evil corporations that put soda machines in schools. But, nobody is forcing the student or the families to actually purchase something from the machine. If one wants to argue cost to the poor family, you will have a hard time convincing me that the soda from that machine is the cheapest thing available. Unless the child works, the child gets their money from their family, so, if the family doesn't give the child money for the machine, then, the soda is not purchased and consumed. i see a choice there.

As an exercise, somebody do this for us. Find out the average cost to purchase a school lunch at a public school in the United States. Then, compare that to the cost of sliced bread (you pick how healthy you want it to be), natural peanut butter, cheapest fruit found at a farmer's market, and, tap water put into a bottle.

 

[JMohegan]

Sure, it can be argued that it is evil corporations that put soda machines in schools.

Actually, the local school systems put soda machines in schools. They are big fundraisers, because the school system gets a cut of the sales. That's why school boards are so resistant to removing them.

 

[subbie_333]

If they are eating school lunch, they're eating HFCS, period. And if that is what they can afford, that is what they eat. Plenty of kids ar eon programs where they get school lunch and/or breakfast for free. Those families cannot afford the alternative, else they would not be eligible for free lunch programs. Those kids don't have a gun to their heads, no, but their alternative is hunger. Which one would you choose?

Are there studies relating children who get free/reduced school meals that are obese compared to the children who do not get free/reduced school meals?

 

[subbie_333]

Actually, the local school systems put soda machines in schools. They are big fundraisers, because the school system gets a cut of the sales. That's why school boards are so resistant to removing them.

Dude, you are avoiding the point that people don't have to buy anything from the machine!

 

[intothewoods]

i am acknowledging that. But, i was responding to your post where you said:



Sure, it can be argued that it is evil corporations that put soda machines in schools. But, nobody is forcing the student or the families to actually purchase something from the machine. If one wants to argue cost to the poor family, you will have a hard time convincing me that the soda from that machine is the cheapest thing available. Unless the child works, the child gets their money from their family, so, if the family doesn't give the child money for the machine, then, the soda is not purchased and consumed. i see a choice there.

As an exercise, somebody do this for us. Find out the average cost to purchase a school lunch at a public school in the United States. Then, compare that to the cost of sliced bread (you pick how healthy you want it to be), natural peanut butter, cheapest fruit found at a farmer's market, and, tap water put into a bottle.

First of all, lots of kids get free lunches, and are dependent on whatever the school serves. Healthy choices are expensive to provide. Outside of the school, you can feed a family at McDonalds for really, really cheap. McDonalds and others have started to offer healthier choices. Why? Because consumer groups and others pressured them to. Finally, there aren't many farmer's markets in the worst neighborhoods. You can drive to them, sure, but it's not like it's right there.

Look, I struggle with it and I make decent money and have one kid. If you have several kids and work long hours for little pay, it is really tough to put a hot meal on the table for a group of people that is nutritionally balanced. You can't tralala over to the farmer's market and be done for the day. You need enough food and to plan meals for the whole week. I'm not saying it's impossible - I actually am hopeful - but it's going to be a combination of factors like education and accessibility, etc.

 

[subbie_333]

First of all, lots of kids get free lunches, and are dependent on whatever the school serves. Healthy choices are expensive to provide. Outside of the school, you can feed a family at McDonalds for really, really cheap. McDonalds and others have started to offer healthier choices. Why? Because consumer groups and others pressured them to. Finally, there aren't many farmer's markets in the worst neighborhoods. You can drive to them, sure, but it's not like it's right there.

Look, I struggle with it and I make decent money and have one kid. If you have several kids and work long hours for little pay, it is really tough to put a hot meal on the table for a group of people that is nutritionally balanced. You can't tralala over to the farmer's market and be done for the day. You need enough food and to plan meals for the whole week. I'm not saying it's impossible - I actually am hopeful - but it's going to be a combination of factors like education and accessibility, etc.

OK, change my exercise to "cheapest fruit at the same place where you buy the natural peanut butter"

 

[JMohegan]

Dude, you are avoiding the point that people don't have to buy anything from the machine!

I should think that point would be self-evident.

At any rate, the soda machine is a great example of a way to make choices easier for people, as I wrote in the second half of this sentence from post 429: "The idea is to remove the deleterious conditions that are beyond an individual's control, and make it easier for people to opt for the choices they know they should make."

A kid can't buy a coke at his school if the machine just simply isn't there.