Abandonment and BDSM

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Re: Sorry for the advice, but ...

why is it that some doms dont understand that? i mean that most of us can handle the truth - sometimes i wonder if it is because of their own insecurities of not being needed enough - to me, being submissive does not indicate a lack of strength and/or common sense...

That's a good question. Why do some Dom's think that subs are weak, insecure and lacking in common sense?

Perhaps because those particular Doms see those same characteristics in themselves? ;-)

AhYea.. I think that's it.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Several BDSM checklists have "abandoment" listed as an item. Bondage.com describes it as:

Being aroused by the idea and/or act of being left behind, abandoned, forgotten, or thrown away. (This is often fantasized about or performed during a scene, and is temporary.)

So submissives who enjoy it, why?

And dominants who enjoy it, please discuss what about "abandonment" trips your trigger.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Several BDSM checklists have "abandoment" listed as an item. Bondage.com describes it as:



So submissives who enjoy it, why?

And dominants who enjoy it, please discuss what about "abandonment" trips your trigger.

So those of us (me specifically) who have a differing view of this topic should keep it to ourselves.... Okay.. gotcha.

 

[Mr Blonde]

So those of us (me specifically) who have a differing view of this topic should keep it to ourselves.... Okay.. gotcha.

Post as often as you like, it ain't like I'm paying for the bandwidth around here...

But being anti-abandonment is the expected response and the reasons for such a perspective are clear. People can write paragraphs stating the obvious, but I am specifically soliciting replies from the people who enjoy it.

Why? Because I want to understand what the pro-abandonment group finds arousing about it...since their reasons are not self-evident to me.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Have to say I have fantasised about it in my time, though in particular circumstances. I know a Dominant who has done this and gets off on it and his patience with relating it to me were definately food for thought. He had a 6 year relationship, M/s 24/7, then without warning presented her with a plane ticket to take her back to where she had come from originally, no explanation, no excuses, and which she did under great duress......he has seen her a couple of times through the years since, no sexual content or resumption of the relationship though, and is pleased she still sees him as the ultimate Dominant to the point she has made her house into a shrine of all they enjoyed and shared and still holds deep respect for him.

He also has a fantasy of abandoning another slave, though these slaves are only ever ones who serve him to the highest degree and who he shares a deep bond with. I could identify with his fantasy of abandonment whereby he would arrange without her knowledge for others to apply to become her Master, and then when he found the one he found suitable for his purposes, sending her off to her fate. It holds appeal, though not sure it works well in situations where slaves have other attachments such as family etc. Why does it appeal? Not sure but I suspect it has a lot to do with the idea of total submission to the point of serving with no expectation of your own needs being met or even considered, of being property in the true sense of the word where you can be discarded or passed on for no better reason than it is the Dominant's desire. LOL, though I would love to reach that point where despite the pain I could accept it, I'm not quite there yet, but the fantasy is great in the right moments.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Re: Re: Sorry for the advice, but ...

Pretend abandonment is ahhhh ... phrase with no meaning. It's like some kind of game. Why would anyone want to do that? If you're going to be busy "for short periods of time to take care of mundane matters," then why not just say so?

I'm all for a good mindfuck... but I think this kind of thing is just goofy game playing.

When I am talking about abandonment I mean mid-scene cruel, unapologetic, "language of abandonment" kind of play, when the other person is kind of suggestible and normally we get out the kid gloves. I think it's interesting that we can play around with rape, use, cutting, considering clitorectomies, electro-schocks, but the minute someone says "I like to get someone down into a good sub-space and then say 'you pointless pig, give me one reason I should ever look at you again'" and then walking out the door that's beyond the pale.

I find that for some people everything is always at face value, and some of us enjoy other kinds of play where things are more symbolic and ritualistic and the emotions brought up are still valid. For some people that kind of scene might provoke a laugh, for some people the shadow of a doubt introduced by the idea and gesture would be a delicious kind of ache or panic, and for some it's just unthinkable cruelty.

AA, if I'm going to go there the velvet glove is definitely off, certainly at that point in time, for as long as I feel I want it off and I know it's still tolerable for the bottom. They have safewords for a reason, too.

 

[Netzach]

Have to say I have fantasised about it in my time, though in particular circumstances. I know a Dominant who has done this and gets off on it and his patience with relating it to me were definately food for thought. He had a 6 year relationship, M/s 24/7, then without warning presented her with a plane ticket to take her back to where she had come from originally, no explanation, no excuses, and which she did under great duress......he has seen her a couple of times through the years since, no sexual content or resumption of the relationship though, and is pleased she still sees him as the ultimate Dominant to the point she has made her house into a shrine of all they enjoyed and shared and still holds deep respect for him.

He also has a fantasy of abandoning another slave, though these slaves are only ever ones who serve him to the highest degree and who he shares a deep bond with. I could identify with his fantasy of abandonment whereby he would arrange without her knowledge for others to apply to become her Master, and then when he found the one he found suitable for his purposes, sending her off to her fate. It holds appeal, though not sure it works well in situations where slaves have other attachments such as family etc. Why does it appeal? Not sure but I suspect it has a lot to do with the idea of total submission to the point of serving with no expectation of your own needs being met or even considered, of being property in the true sense of the word where you can be discarded or passed on for no better reason than it is the Dominant's desire. LOL, though I would love to reach that point where despite the pain I could accept it, I'm not quite there yet, but the fantasy is great in the right moments.

Catalina

This is very interesting to me, I assume that the man had attachment as well, it's impossible to be in a relationship of that duration without any. What's interesting to me is the sense I get that he felt there was some kind of *appropriate* conclusion to the relationship and was willing to make it happen in spite of sentiments. The slaves will always view the duration with fondness, rather than some relationship that gets stale and hurtful and fizzles, or one where the Dominance gets overfamiliar and flags over the years (it happens)

 

[catalina_francisco]

This is very interesting to me, I assume that the man had attachment as well, it's impossible to be in a relationship of that duration without any. What's interesting to me is the sense I get that he felt there was some kind of *appropriate* conclusion to the relationship and was willing to make it happen in spite of sentiments. The slaves will always view the duration with fondness, rather than some relationship that gets stale and hurtful and fizzles, or one where the Dominance gets overfamiliar and flags over the years (it happens)

Yes, he said she would have been best described as 'the one' in D/s terms and he continued to admire her ability to obey and accept his decision without any of the usually expected begging, crying, accusing, resentment. He still holds her in great respect and love, and does not regret his decision as it has fed his need to experience this as opposed to play act it. He seemed genuine in his feelings and I believe he is, and has since moved on to marry his present slave and move to live 24/7 with her and her children.

Catalina

 

[AngelicAssassin]

When I am talking about abandonment I mean mid-scene cruel, unapologetic, "language of abandonment" kind of play ... someone says "I like to get someone down into a good sub-space and then say 'you pointless pig, give me one reason I should ever look at you again'" and then walking out the door that's beyond the pale.

i'd hazzard a guess and say most have a tiny place deep inside they hold precious. Going further out on the limb, some don't tuck "precious" in a stone castle. If i understood, you refer to deliciously cruel ambrosia centered on a scene, and not behavior of someone with iron will like ... hell, Kayser Soze. Now before anyone gets the wrong idea, remember that your mileage varies. This is the sea bordering that spot on the map labelled "Here be dragons." A high risk gamble normally accompanies a high stakes payoff.

... for some people the shadow of a doubt introduced by the idea and gesture would be a delicious kind of ache or panic ...

My kinda people ...

AA, if I'm going to go there the velvet glove is definitely off, certainly at that point in time, for as long as I feel I want it off and I know it's still tolerable for the bottom. They have safewords for a reason, too.

Ain't it amazing how control and communication keep turning up in these discussions ... thanks for your candor as usual Netzi.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Abandonment...the fear of it...the craving for it...the complex interraction of is it real or will She really keep Me has been a thread and undercurrent of My 5 year relationship with My slave.

he has fantasized about temporary abandonment and even permanent abandonment since he was preteen. his fantasizes mirror a side of My cruelty that works well for both of U/us.

Without the edginess of this extreme kind of emotional brutality this particular slave would be left simply in its fantasy and I would be unfulfilled with preparing him for the possible one day reality that he will be given to a younger Domme if I see his desire to build a family begin to overshadow his lack of desire today.

All acts, for Me, are looked at through eyes that see the long term values to BDSM and D/s sanity within the many relationships I have.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Sage advice from another angle

Without the edginess of this extreme kind of emotional brutality this particular slave would be left simply in its fantasy and I would be unfulfilled with preparing him for the possible one day reality that he will be given to a younger Domme if I see his desire to build a family begin to overshadow his lack of desire today.

All acts, for Me, are looked at through eyes that see the long term values to BDSM and D/s sanity within the many relationships I have.

i'm chuckling at the way you slammed that one out of the park darlin'.

Brava.

There's no polite way to ask the follow-up, however.

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

what if the house caught on fire when you were gone that "short time"?

what if someone broke into the house?

what if she suddenly became ill, suddenly really needed to use the bathroom, suddenly needed to vomit?

its not smart to leave a tied submissive alone ANYwhere for ANY length of time. bondage 101.

Agreed. I've posted about this in the blurt thread, but this happened to a sub who applied to me to be his domme, Jesse. His former Mistress tied him to the bed and then left him there while she went on a date. When she came back she beat him with a short cane and fucked him.

A hot fantasy? Yeah, I can get it. Having your boy at home, helpess, waiting for you while you're with someone, beating him and then rough sex with him. But leaving him alone, helpless? No way, that's much too dangerous. If I were to ever do something like that I would make sure someone was there to look after him - and that he could hear that someone so he'd know he was safe, even if he did feel abandoned for a while.

Abandonment fantasies? If he's into it, then yes. If he's the sort for whom that would be traumatic, then no.

OTOH, it can be used as a lesson - making the sub/slave really trust that you won't abandon him, even if it feels that way for a little while. But it's hard to gauge when the sub/slave is ready for that lesson, if they could ever handle it.

Well, that's a lot of verbiage just say it depends on the person, but I guess you get the idea.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Re: Sage advice from another angle

i'm chuckling at the way you slammed that one out of the park darlin'.

Brava.

There's no polite way to ask the follow-up, however.

If or when the day comes that a permanent abandonment occurs I will let You have the follow up.

Now onto perceived abandonments that are in reality the gifts of freedom and growth.

In the last 3 months I have trained 2 female submissives, both whom I adore, and both I always knew I would (abandon?) pass on to others that I would hand pick. Even though I trained and used them as My own they knew that My eye was as much on who would get them than on how well they served Me.

The first one I gave away 1 1/2 months after she came to Me. I chose My best friend here in Canada to become her new Mistress and negotiated through 5 hours with both of them to ensure that they were on the same page. Even though this was always the intent the submissive did fight small abandonment issues, perhaps because I gave her away first, and was unable to be anything more than civil to the girl I kept. Though her relationship and loyalty to Me as the Mistress that gave her this amazing opportunity has not been damaged.

The second girl is in the process of possibly being given away this week.

When I was in Sweden recently I hand picked a Master for her. 3 weeks later (last night) He flew to Canada to meet her and to see if the magic they found on the phone and online will transfer to real life. Having spoken with them both it does appear to be getting off to a good start and I will meet with Him once again in person in about 30 minutes.

I know that this fem sub is already fighting the feelings of abandonment even though He is more than she could have ever dreamed of as far as a man and a Master goes.

It is the ying and yang...the grass is greener...the aren't i good enough against the i must be very valuable to be given such an opportunity.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Re: Sage advice from another angle

If or when the day comes that a permanent abandonment occurs I will let You have the follow up.

Good guess, but neither a horseshoe, nor handgrenade.

i'll PM, and let you decide whether the question bears answering and in which venue.

 

[shy slave]

abandonment is one of my worst fears in my D/s relationship - it is something i am working very hard to overcome - i know that i would not be able to deal with such "play" - and my Master knows and understands my feelings on the subject and i can say without a doubt that he would never engage in abandonment as a mind fuck and he certainly knows that i would not get off on the humiliation of it - i've never really thought of it as a hard limit for me, but i guess it is

in my opinion, abandonment and using someone are two different things

Ditto

Actually have to wonder if you have been in my head princess4u

 

[shy slave]

Have to say I have fantasised about it in my time, though in particular circumstances. I know a Dominant who has done this and gets off on it and his patience with relating it to me were definately food for thought. He had a 6 year relationship, M/s 24/7, then without warning presented her with a plane ticket to take her back to where she had come from originally, no explanation, no excuses, and which she did under great duress......he has seen her a couple of times through the years since, no sexual content or resumption of the relationship though, and is pleased she still sees him as the ultimate Dominant to the point she has made her house into a shrine of all they enjoyed and shared and still holds deep respect for him.

He also has a fantasy of abandoning another slave, though these slaves are only ever ones who serve him to the highest degree and who he shares a deep bond with. I could identify with his fantasy of abandonment whereby he would arrange without her knowledge for others to apply to become her Master, and then when he found the one he found suitable for his purposes, sending her off to her fate. It holds appeal, though not sure it works well in situations where slaves have other attachments such as family etc. Why does it appeal? Not sure but I suspect it has a lot to do with the idea of total submission to the point of serving with no expectation of your own needs being met or even considered, of being property in the true sense of the word where you can be discarded or passed on for no better reason than it is the Dominant's desire. LOL, though I would love to reach that point where despite the pain I could accept it, I'm not quite there yet, but the fantasy is great in the right moments.

Catalina

This is so far out of my realm of what i can cope with, that it reads as cruel beyond measure.

I cannot imagine how to begin coping, nor am I convinced I would cope.

I wonder if this particular Dom would have got off had this slave not coped and as a result commited suicide? The ultimate in worship, slave commitment and an ego boost for him perhaps?

orginally posted by Angelic Assasin

This is the sea bordering that spot on the map labelled "Here be dragons." A high risk gamble normally accompanies a high stakes payoff.

I am not brave enough for those kind of dragons, not even as a fantasy ~ I guess I won't be getting my Boy Scout Badge/Slave Girl badge in all aspects of BDSM

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I am not brave enough for those kind of dragons, not even as a fantasy ~ I guess I won't be getting my Boy Scout Badge/Slave Girl badge in all aspects of BDSM

Please take this in the spirit given ... a gentle chiding.

You are your own person. You have needs unique to your heart, mind, and soul. For anyone to expect you to "earn" every badge smacks of stupidity in the first degree. Better to be a "tenderbutt" and swimming in comfortable water than "bloodybutt" torn apart by indifferent sharks. Best wishes to you regardless of what you choose.

 

[Etoile]

I am not brave enough for those kind of dragons, not even as a fantasy ~ I guess I won't be getting my Boy Scout Badge/Slave Girl badge in all aspects of BDSM

I agree with AngelicAssassin. There are no scout badges in BDSM. If abandonment is not the thing for you, that doesn't make you any less of a slave or sub. You are who you are, not who anybody else says you should be.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This is so far out of my realm of what i can cope with, that it reads as cruel beyond measure.

I cannot imagine how to begin coping, nor am I convinced I would cope.

I wonder if this particular Dom would have got off had this slave not coped and as a result commited suicide? The ultimate in worship, slave commitment and an ego boost for him perhaps?

I don't think he would have enjoyed that but do think he knew her well enough to know that was not a risk. From what he described of their history it was a journey where she often chose to submit to a deeper level without any request or provocation from him, and above all she saw her role as doing whatever pleased him regardless of if it were what she would have preferred or freely chosen.

This is the sea bordering that spot on the map labelled "Here be dragons." A high risk gamble normally accompanies a high stakes payoff.

I am not brave enough for those kind of dragons, not even as a fantasy ~ I guess I won't be getting my Boy Scout Badge/Slave Girl badge in all aspects of BDSM

As AA says, you do not have to get all the badges and no-one truely does IMO simply because for every badge/benchmark etc., there is usually one or more which is the opposite goal of the original or a lesser or further degree of it. It is all about what works in your own particular relationship, who wants what, and how that is achieved.

Catalina

 

[shy slave]

Thank you AA, Etoile & Catalina for the gentle chiding that its not about collecting badges.

In reality of course i know that, I was just slightly dumbfounded at the lengths the slave catalina referred to in her example of abandonment went that far.

I have attended a local munch with Master and it did appear that far too many of the people there were 'badge collecting and into a 'my bruise is bigger than your bruise' style of BDSM.
Master has said it is not the kind of people or place He sees as appropriate for my learning at present.

He is looking for a less predatory, more ??? (can't think of the correct word) munch for us to attend.

Apologies if I came across as stupid or flippant.

 

[Etoile]

I have attended a local munch with Master and it did appear that far too many of the people there were 'badge collecting and into a 'my bruise is bigger than your bruise' style of BDSM.
Master has said it is not the kind of people or place He sees as appropriate for my learning at present.

He is looking for a less predatory, more ??? (can't think of the correct word) munch for us to attend.

Argh! Sounds like these people never got out of high school. It's like comparing dick size for crying out loud! (And no matter what any guy tells me, I promise my dick is bigger than his. At least one of them.)

Apologies if I came across as stupid or flippant.

shy slave, I'm going to address something here that seems to be an occasional pattern for you. You seem to be very concerned with presenting yourself appropriately here. Maybe it's just the way I'm reading your words (ah, text-based communication!), but it sounds to me like you feel you were being stupid or flippant, so you feel the need to apologize for being that way. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're just concerned that you came across in a way you didn't mean to. But if you truly feel that's how you were acting, then please don't feel you have to apologize. As somebody who struggles daily with issues of self-esteem and self-worth, I'm learning to tell myself that I'm not the one who's stupid. Maybe I asked a silly question, or did something stupid, but it's not me who is stupid.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Only a coda

Three or four years ago, my submissive girlfriend (at the time) was slowly pulling out of a very intense situation. She said very plainly she needed space so I took a seat behind her no less than 20 feet away so I could watch her for trouble signs. Suddenly she began to panic and was sobbing uncontrollably. Why? Because she had forgotten I was there and had become convinced she was abandoned. She had completely lost track of time and setting to the point where it took a large effort to re-assure her. No, she had no history of mental illness and was normally a very functional and happy go lucky person -- this happened at the end of an intense sequence of events.

Later we discussed what happened, and she had even hinted that abandonment might be an area for future exploration, but the relationship ended before we re-visited it.

 

[Netzach]

I'm in negotiations and early stages with a slave. He's in the final of the first stages of the process of his divorce, really throwing himself into service in a serious way, overhauling his life in a big midlife crisis fireball.

"You realize you have no right to expectations." I told him. "You will have absolutely no recourse if I drop you off one day and tell you not to come back and I don't need to offer a single reason. No matter how intense it gets no matter how hard you work, and no matter how good you are, if you're the best slave that ever lived."

Nice egalitarian Netz is often nowhere to be found, when someone issues that "I wanna be your slave" booty call.

This kind of statement is much the same as "hey baby, I'm wearing nothing but a smile" to the average vanilla male. This is a massive turn-on to him.

"You run the risk of winding up used up, tossed aside, and without explanations or considerations."

Would I?

Yes, actually. I would.

Will I?

Maybe. Maybe I will.

This is where faith comes into the question of slavery. The super-sized mondo ultra version of "trust." He has to operate on the assumption that I won't, even though I could, even though I might.

 

[vogueboy]

... And who says Choice isn't a Risk.

O