Advice.... in reguards to my marriage and bdsm

[HottieMama]

I agree but I'd offer another option. Work WITH your life partner to find areas together that make both of you happy and/or therapy that may be needed.

FF

FF, I agree with you. I'm not getting much indication though, that the OP is even considering her partner's perspective, much less any indication of being willing to compromise other than in the area of "who's on top."

 

[Stella_Omega]

No, at this time, she might not wish to address her partner's need to *not* do what she needs. At least, not in this particular venue.

It's a little bit obvious however that she hasn't really forced him to do anything.

I gotta say, I've been there. And in many relationships the phrase "No, I won't" is incredibly more powerful than "yes I want," in my experience.

So yeah, you get angry. You get fucking sick and tired of being told that you have to consider everyone else. yeah, you know that, for whatever reason, you won't be getting what you want, and those reasons might be real good ones.

But sometimes you get sick of being nice about it.

I look at needs from a psychological perspective, and kinky sex isn't one of them.

Wanna bet? I gave up kinky sex for the sake of my marriage-- ended up with massive depressions that I am still addressing-- that damaged a whole lot of other things, like my productivity, self esteem, and proactiveness. I am still fighting my way back to regain my real self once more. And embracing my kinkyness once more has been a bigger step forward than any other thing-- and it's also yet another battle that I have to fight, my own respect for that core of me-- much less anyone else.

For some people, "kinky sex" is a need.

If the OP was male, I think a lot of responses here would be a lot different.

that's something I was thinking about, actually. Men have a history of just going ahead and doing after all-- women not so much. Women arrive on forums to talk about it, and get told that they are being selfish.

 

[ControlandDom]

that's something I was thinking about, actually. Men have a history of just going ahead and doing after all-- women not so much. Women arrive on forums to talk about it, and get told that they are being selfish.

LOL You are SUCH a hypocrite.

If the OP was a guy you would have spent the whole thread railing on him about how he is being a "typical hetero male" or "typical hetero male dom." You would have went on and on about how his thinking was what you've fought your whole life against. And how he should be a sub before he even considers being a dom.

But because it's a woman everyone should treat her with kid gloves?

Double standard much? lol

 

[Licia]

Rather aggressive as a female, I state my opinions...boldly. I simply assume that other women will understand what it means when their needs come AFTER every other person...on the face of the planet. I understand the frustration and even outrage which occurs. I understand what it is to be shackled against your will, especially when you know better. That's probably why most women are so keen at treating each other appropriately, as they deserve to be treated - like human beings with wants, needs, and respect. Crazy bitches don't necessarily apply here, but they're out there in force. The absolute weariness, yeah, I get that too.

Upon first glance, people would think that I live the traditional hetero lifestyle, until I start speaking. They may even pick up on the fact that my hubby actively treats me with respect and thought. They'd never guess, though, that in the bedroom he's MINE to play with however I wish.

What I do even in the waking world is build women up. I actually find it fun to dominate men who need it with sarcasm and intellegence. I do it even in the family venue, and everyone likes it. (Even the men, go figure.) It's possible to change the entire tone of the gathering simply by putting nasty guys in their place...there are some truly mean dudes in the extended family.

Honestly, because I know that women have learned to consider other folk's needs, I assumed the OP could recognize why her hubby wouldn't be able to easily push a button into slave mode. *shrugs* I assume women already have that inate power of recognization. I guess what I saw was what she chose to reveal: fed-up. That's a dangerous playground for a dominant woman, for me at least.

It wasn't my intention to "yell" negatively. It was my intention to say, "Danger, girlfriend. Take a breather and use your intellegence to figure out WHY this is hard for him. He doesn't just simply understand that you won't hurt him. Actively show him the difference. You're smarter than all of this."

That better?

I get so used to communicating with mean, stubborn men (yay, backstick town) that sometimes I forget I am speaking to someone who is fully capable of understanding. If that's what happened, my apologies.

 

[Stella_Omega]

LOL You are SUCH a hypocrite.

If the OP was a guy you would have spent the whole thread railing on him about how he is being a "typical hetero male" or "typical hetero male dom." You would have went on and on about how his thinking was what you've fought your whole life against. And how he should be a sub before he even considers being a dom.

But because it's a woman everyone should treat her with kid gloves?

Double standard much? lol

That's kind of true, because that WOULD be a typical hetero male.

Women aren't typically inclined to run right over their partner's sexual preferences. They tend to think about what their partner wants first, last and second-- and if they talk about what they want, it doesn't always translate to immediate action. Which is why I am so angry with he people on this thread, because fuck, we have such a hard time talking about our own needs that we do it very badly. This woman couldn't even say anything until she had become so blindly angry that it all comes out sounding selfish.

 

[FurryFury]

FF, I agree with you. I'm not getting much indication though, that the OP is even considering her partner's perspective, much less any indication of being willing to compromise other than in the area of "who's on top."

I know. I just wanted to present another possibility to the OP.

Also about what if this were started by a man instead of a woman? I'll say that the revulsion to trying to force a previously abused person to go beyond their comfort level, and getting mad cause you can't have what you want, would have been stronger.

FF

 

[Stella_Omega]

I know. I just wanted to present another possibility to the OP.

Also about what if this were started by a man instead of a woman? I'll say that the revulsion to trying to force a previously abused person to go beyond their comfort level, and getting mad cause you can't have what you want, would have been stronger.

FF

The revulsion at the thought of trying to force someone is identical.

The revulsion at her saying what she wants aside from anyone else's wants-- the dynamics are different, for reasons that licia and I have both touched on right above your post. Women are socialised to think about everyone else first. Even dominant women. It's not in any way the same as listening to a man talk.

With most men-- not all, but if I don't know the guy, this is what my base assumption would be-- the dude might very well go ahead and put his idea into action. Women generall have to be encouraged to even talk selfishly in the first place, and then getting them to do something selfish is a whole other paradigm.

In any case, we never got there, because when this particular woman responded to MY request-- that she talk about herself-- she was attacked by other women for talking about herself.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

I am so annoyed right now ive been with my husband for over 7yrs our sex life is pretty good but i have alot of bdsm tendencies in me and i can no longer keep them supressed i understand my husband has been severly abused physically mentally emotionally and sexually as a child but damnnn a regular vanilla sex life is just not cutting it for me its not satisfying me anymore i mean dont get me wrong the sex is great but its just not enough and i love my husband to death but damn i dont know what to do anymore im a little annoyed right now with him.Please some advice on this at most he will participate in water sports breath play and thats about it

That would be my guess at where people's anger at the OP comes from.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes, it's a post full of conflict. besides the two statements regarding her anger and frustration, she talks about loving him:

I am so annoyed right now ive been with my husband for over 7yrs our sex life is pretty good but i have alot of bdsm tendencies in me and i can no longer keep them supressed i understand my husband has been severly abused physically mentally emotionally and sexually as a child but damnnn a regular vanilla sex life is just not cutting it for me its not satisfying me anymore i mean dont get me wrong the sex is great but its just not enough and i love my husband to death but damn i dont know what to do anymore im a little annoyed right now with him. Please some advice on this at most he will participate in water sports breath play and thats about it

And she talks about some needs that she's suppressed:

I am so annoyed right now ive been with my husband for over 7yrs our sex life is pretty good but i have alot of bdsm tendencies in me and i can no longer keep them supressed i understand my husband has been severly abused physically mentally emotionally and sexually as a child but damnnn a regular vanilla sex life is just not cutting it for me its not satisfying me anymore i mean dont get me wrong the sex is great but its just not enough and i love my husband to death but damn i dont know what to do anymore im a little annoyed right now with him.Please some advice on this at most he will participate in water sports breath play and thats about it

And she asks for advice, but we never got that far.

 

[laceNlthrgrrl]

If the OP was male, I think a lot of responses here would be a lot different.

Ya beat me to it.

If it was a guy coming here and saying that his previously abused wife didn't want to play, but HE had wants and needs, I have a feeling that a lot of the above responders would be hissing, spitting, and bouncing off walls.

 

[Licia]

The revulsion at the thought of trying to force someone is identical.

It fucking should be! I do not care what anyone blabs on about..."feh, men are physically superior..yadda, yadda, yadda...whaa, whaa, whaa." It is just too easy to rip another human being apart, convince them to writhe underneath your will, tie them down, ignore their pleasure, and get what you want. Even a DOM who's hardcore knows that the "girl" he owns is a force beyond his control because she is only there for ONE reason: she wants to be there. They are absolutely correct when they profess she is something to be feared, and FEARED with trembling respect. *chuckles*

The revulsion at her saying what she wants aside from anyone else's wants-- the dynamics are different, for reasons that licia and I have both touched on right above your post. Women are socialised to think about everyone else first. Even dominant women. It's not in any way the same as listening to a man talk.

The bold: uh, yep. Why do I even care to dominate men who beg for this in the public and familial setting? One reason: the women need it most. I give a crap about the women who are not yet free of their culture. I've lived what they go through; I'm empathetic.

With most men-- not all, but if I don't know the guy, this is what my base assumption would be-- the dude might very well go ahead and put his idea into action. Women generall have to be encouraged to even talk selfishly in the first place, and then getting them to do something selfish is a whole other paradigm.

This is a good point, I think. My hubby is finally, after 37 years on this planet, discovering what it really means to function under a voracious libido. I understand that not all women may live with the sort of sexual tension I deal with daily. Men blather on about their sexual proweress and desires, but when it comes down to "put up or shut up", the ones in my life ALL FELL SHORT. A confession from my hubby after a bondage scene which built over sexual tension for just one fucking day: "Licia, I really do not think a man would be capable of refraining from just taking HIS pleasure from the one beneath him after a day like this." After a knowing laugh, I agreed. Again, I'm not attempting to brag. He wanted to know what it's like on my side of the equation. Since I actually love the guy, I intend to do my best. *shrugs*

In any case, we never got there, because when this particular woman responded to MY request-- that she talk about herself-- she was attacked by other women for talking about herself.

Hopefully, the dialogue can continue even if the OP chooses to ignore or become a silent reader. I honestly believe that too many wives and girlfriends suffer from the exact same circumstances. And, yeah, the OP would've suffered much more venom if it were a man making the post because socially, men are brought up to actively believe they're superior: WRONG. Women are brought up to live as if they're inferior: WRONG. No wonder the divorce rate is so high. *shrugs just to seem less imposing* Lol. See? Conditioning at work. Pretty sad when expressing the way you feel HAS to seem less threatening to society at large because they may not be able to handle your opinions.

 

[Chiara_searches]

I look at needs from a psychological perspective, and kinky sex isn't one of them. So yes, I put needs in quotes to use the same term that she is throughout her posts. Otherwise, I would call them what they truly are...WANTS.

If the OP was male, I think a lot of responses here would be a lot different.

I agree with both of these points. Kinky sex is a want, IMHO. I want kinky sex; but I doubt my current boyfriend would ever go as kinky as I want. But he fulfills so much more on my relationship spectrum and he's a great human being, too, so I think my want of kinky sex is worth toning down to have him in my life. I'm not "denied" things by him; I'm denied them by my own choice to have him in my life.

I'm not getting much indication though, that the OP is even considering her partner's perspective, much less any indication of being willing to compromise other than in the area of "who's on top."

And if the OP were a man, I'd still be encouraging him to understand his partner's perspective, too.

No, at this time, she might not wish to address her partner's need to *not* do what she needs. At least, not in this particular venue.

But sometimes you get sick of being nice about it.
Wanna bet? I gave up kinky sex for the sake of my marriage-- ended up with massive depressions that I am still addressing-- that damaged a whole lot of other things, like my productivity, self esteem, and proactiveness. I am still fighting my way back to regain my real self once more. And embracing my kinkyness once more has been a bigger step forward than any other thing-- and it's also yet another battle that I have to fight, my own respect for that core of me-- much less anyone else.

For some people, "kinky sex" is a need.

But Stella, not everyone has weathered all the storms you have in your life. Navigating for others is different because they faced less or different challenges than you.

Other people were asking questions, too; many of which I interpret were meant to get more information to help her from a different perspective than your approach.

LOL You are SUCH a hypocrite.

If the OP was a guy you would have spent the whole thread railing on him about how he is being a "typical hetero male" or "typical hetero male dom." You would have went on and on about how his thinking was what you've fought your whole life against. And how he should be a sub before he even considers being a dom.

But because it's a woman everyone should treat her with kid gloves?

Double standard much? lol

While I disagree with the "tone" of the above, I still believe the point to be valid: in my world, women find equality by being treated as you would treat a man. It coddles women further to treat them with kid gloves or to make them think it's okay to ignore a partner's valid reasons for not diving into kink. Again, there may have been more revulsion if the OP were a man; but I think a lot of the fundamental messages would be the same.

Women aren't typically inclined to run right over their partner's sexual preferences. They tend to think about what their partner wants first, last and second-- and if they talk about what they want, it doesn't always translate to immediate action. Which is why I am so angry with he people on this thread, because fuck, we have such a hard time talking about our own needs that we do it very badly. This woman couldn't even say anything until she had become so blindly angry that it all comes out sounding selfish.

True. But anger can cause hurt. I think nearly everyone who posted, whatever their approach, was trying to get her to a place of understanding and not just anger.

The revulsion at her saying what she wants aside from anyone else's wants-- the dynamics are different, for reasons that licia and I have both touched on right above your post.

In any case, we never got there, because when this particular woman responded to MY request-- that she talk about herself-- she was attacked by other women for talking about herself.

I don't recall people finding revulsion in *what* she wants; at least for myself the revulsion came in her not also explaining what they've done to get him past the trauma in light of what she wanted to force him to do. I wasn't repulsed by the acts...but by the fact she wanted to do them and that he should just simply "get it" that she would never hurt him in any way but which was pleasurable.

Stella, you were not the only one asking questions...yet you were the only one she really answered. She was not attacked, but was called out for ignoring other equally valid questions. It was an attempt to get her to provide more context than just the sexual act one, because for others that is also part of the solution even if your suggested solution would be different.

And you were attacked for aiming your criticisms at just one of those "women" because in a sense that's disrespectful in and of itself. It was, again only IMHO, an attempt to silence a woman's opinion that did not match your own.

You indicated a while ago that you were going to give her suggestions. I hope you have done so by PM because I haven't seen them in the thread (apologies if I missed it). What you may have suggested might have helped others see your solution clearer.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I agree with both of these points. Kinky sex is a want, IMHO. I want kinky sex; but I doubt my current boyfriend would ever go as kinky as I want. But he fulfills so much more on my relationship spectrum and he's a great human being, too, so I think my want of kinky sex is worth toning down to have him in my life. I'm not "denied" things by him; I'm denied them by my own choice to have him in my life.

yes, and many women-- and men too, don't get me wrong-- do make that choice. I think that there is a lot of unacknowledged grief and anger for a lot of people, and women have a harder time understanding where their anger is coming from.

And if the OP were a man, I'd still be encouraging him to understand his partner's perspective, too.

If OP were a man, I'd assume he needed that encouragement. With women, it's a given.

But Stella, not everyone has weathered all the storms you have in your life. Navigating for others is different because they faced less or different challenges than you.

to me, this particular woman is looking at very similar problems.
I'm sure I've over identified with her!

and I notice, you are ignoring my point that my BDSM is a NEED not merely a "want. Which is something I shared in order to validate her words. Which you are still ignoring.

While I disagree with the "tone" of the above, I still believe the point to be valid: in my world, women find equality by being treated as you would treat a man. It coddles women further to treat them with kid gloves or to make them think it's okay to ignore a partner's valid reasons for not diving into kink. Again, there may have been more revulsion if the OP were a man; but I think a lot of the fundamental messages would be the same.

NO ONE was asking her to ignore her partners problems, for fuck's sake!!!!!!

I wanted to find out what HER problems were. So that we could address them. Soon enough, we'd be addressing them in tandem with his.

True. But anger can cause hurt. I think nearly everyone who posted, whatever their approach, was trying to get her to a place of understanding and not just anger.

and anger IS hurt. I read a lot of hurt. it's really triggered my own hurt, to be truthful. I got a lot of similar responses from people when I was going through my own self-recovery. "think of your partner! Think of your children! Think about your co-workers! Think about everyone except yourself! Oh, you're still unhappy?-- here, have a prescription for Zoloft!"

It is harder than climbing Mount Everest, to force your female ass to climb over that goliath of a mountain of societal expectation.

I don't recall people finding revulsion in *what* she wants; at least for myself the revulsion came in her not also explaining what they've done to get him past the trauma in light of what she wanted to force him to do. I wasn't repulsed by the acts...but by the fact she wanted to do them and that he should just simply "get it" that she would never hurt him in any way but which was pleasurable.

yet she DID say that. Sure, it was a gloss. But we don't need to address that FIRRRRRSSSTTTTTT before we even think about the woman who came here. Or anyway, I won't go that route. I respect what she said.

Stella, you were not the only one asking questions...yet you were the only one she really answered. She was not attacked, but was called out for ignoring other equally valid questions. It was an attempt to get her to provide more context than just the sexual act one, because for others that is also part of the solution even if your suggested solution would be different.

The bolded should be kinda self-explanatory. She needs to talk about herself for a while, not about him. I reminded you that I had asked her that question. She had the fucking right to answer it, and you attacked her for it.

And you were attacked for aiming your criticisms at just one of those "women" because in a sense that's disrespectful in and of itself. It was, again only IMHO, an attempt to silence a woman's opinion that did not match your own.

i was quoting you. You said the words that I was responding to. In other posts, I quoted other people.

You indicated a while ago that you were going to give her suggestions. I hope you have done so by PM because I haven't seen them in the thread (apologies if I missed it). What you may have suggested might have helped others see your solution clearer.

Nope, I haven't heard back from her.

 

[Netzach]

LOL You are SUCH a hypocrite.

If the OP was a guy you would have spent the whole thread railing on him about how he is being a "typical hetero male" or "typical hetero male dom." You would have went on and on about how his thinking was what you've fought your whole life against. And how he should be a sub before he even considers being a dom.

But because it's a woman everyone should treat her with kid gloves?

Double standard much? lol

I wouldn't. I've given men the same advice I'm going to give here: this may stay an impasse forever, and you need to realize that.

I lived through this exact issue.

My resolution was that I don't care how much I care, I'm not putting my entire identity on hold for the rest of my life because someone else has issues within his past he will not heal through in such a way that I can ever expect to be fulfilled with him. We split. Admittedly I didn't gather years of children and mortgages and whatnot first, so that was painful but not shattering to others beyond us.

What I DID NOT then do was repeat that same mistake. I had VERY narrow criteria if I was ever going to live with someone again and barring anyone meeting those criteria I'd go to my grave happily with a thick black book in my hand and a cat to foist off on a friend after me.

People are rarely encouraged to be selfish in sexuality. I think one ought to be. I do think these things are needs once you get past food and a roof. I'm as dependent on being able to spank my partner as I am on being able to hug them to feel like a human being. Whether I do it a lot or not, is beside the point, it's having that door mentally open.

What's freaking everyone out is that they actually ARE hearing it from a woman. That's pretty unusual. We're supposed to either not need sex, be happy with being told we're pretty, or be able to get whatever kind of sex we want because men are all horndogs who will do anything.

 

[KoPilot]

Maybe it's because I've been going through a pretty horrible personal hell for the past few days and suffering through fear, anxiety, and PTSD-like symptoms due to something that happened recently, but like Netz said, my answer would be the same regardless of the OP's gender.

I'm siding with her partner, who has been living his personal hell for every day of most of his life. If the tone she's been using in her posts is how she's conveying those "needs" to her husband, then I'm going to bypass her altogether and give a piece of advice to him: DTMFA.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If the tone she's been using in her posts is how she's conveying those "needs" to her husband...

Well, we probably won't ever know now anyway.

 

[KoPilot]

Well, we probably won't ever know now anyway.

Yeah, seems to be quite the cold case now. Still, someone else in her position might come along and read the thread.

 

[Lilac_Sky]

<snip>
and anger IS hurt. I read a lot of hurt. it's really triggered my own hurt, to be truthful. I got a lot of similar responses from people when I was going through my own self-recovery. "think of your partner! Think of your children! Think about your co-workers! Think about everyone except yourself! Oh, you're still unhappy?-- here, have a prescription for Zoloft!"

It is harder than climbing Mount Everest, to force your female ass to climb over that goliath of a mountain of societal expectation.

I have been trying so hard to stay away from this thread and not get caught up in the middle of the heated discussions (I try to avoid heated discussions at all costs). But Stella .... wow .... I could have written the above portion about myself. Right down to the Zoloft (which Mistress is determined to help me get off of).

Societal expectations, the shame and responsibility women take on themselves, the sacrifice and martyrdom we internalize .... can be so horribly destructive.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yeah, seems to be quite the cold case now. Still, someone else in her position might come along and read the thread.

And notice that certain posters will attack her for the fact of her anger?

Yeah, probably so.

But if they are smart, they won't bother to make themselves known.

Societal expectations, the shame and responsibility women take on themselves, the sacrifice and martyrdom we internalize .... can be so horribly destructive.

And not only that, but those expectations rein women in. Where these people got the idea that this woman would be so unconstrained as to abuse her husband is beyond me. She would have posted anentirely different post if that were true.

 

[KoPilot]

And notice that certain posters will attack her for the fact of her anger?

Yeah, probably so.

But if they are smart, they won't bother to make themselves known.

All I know is that I strongly dislike callousness where abuse is concerned.

And I think it's funny that your recent comments have turned toward being sympathetic for women who are deciding to be selfish in the face of an unsupportive society-- I think an equally relevant topic would be the lack of societal support for men that have been abused.

 

[Chiara_searches]

i mean his abuse involved being locked in the closet for hrs as a little boy being degraded he was tied up in the closet by his arms and neck by a moms boyfriend and even burnt on his backside and hands on the stove
he has to knw i would never hurt him in a mannerism other then pleasurable one..

So basically you've just ignored all we've said. I suggest you seek counselling seeing as you find it so difficult to understand why your husband doesn't want to beat the crap out of you/rape you.

I never said i was ignoring what you said one post said what i was talking about as in what i prefer and thats what i prefer.. i havent sprung it ALL on him just told him certain things of what im into trust me if i wouldve went into all of it it wouldve been too much for him to handle

This is the exchange that gave me the idea that she was unconstrained enough to do further damage to her husband. That and her silence, when asked directly, if she meant to violate her husband again by insisting on her wants, or needs, as the word may be to each person. In the face of a suggestion that only seems like one she didn't want to hear, she says she wasn't ignoring others...then gets back to the concept that he should just "get it" that she wouldn't hurt him. She wasn't "getting it" that she was hurting him, or potentially hurting him, since we don't know how far he may be in recovering from the trauma...because she wouldn't even take the basic suggestion of counseling and respond to it.

The idea did not spring wholesale from my mind. I believe it did not spring wholesale from others' minds, either.

And notice that certain posters will attack her for the fact of her anger?

This, at least to my attempt to comment, is a mis-characterization. I don't think most of the responses ever said she shouldn't be angry. I think what most responses were concerned with was her lack of empathy for her husband's trauma.

Where these people got the idea that this woman would be so unconstrained as to abuse her husband is beyond me.

See above as at least one source. Not understanding what emotional triggers that could happen from engaging in her sexual desires was another form of potential trauma. "Do this for me or I'm leaving you" can be traumatic when your brain, as a self protective measure, just won't let you do "this."

All I know is that I strongly dislike callousness where abuse is concerned.

And I think it's funny that your recent comments have turned toward being sympathetic for women who are deciding to be selfish in the face of an unsupportive society-- I think an equally relevant topic would be the lack of societal support for men that have been abused.

Agreed. There's an earlier post that implies he made the whole thing up. But abuse happens to men; and it feels like society still does little to look at the situation from the abused person's perspective, regardless of gender.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The idea did not spring wholesale from my mind. I believe it did not spring wholesale from others' minds, either.

It sprang wholesale from crap reading skills.


In my opinion, " just told him certain things... trust me if i wouldve went into all of it it wouldve been too much for him to handle"

means that she did NOT go into everything.

Because, as she says, very clearly, it would have been too much for him to handle if she had.

"wouldve" is a contraction of "would have." It carries the meaning of "did not (because...)"

And when she says "trust me" she was talking to the posters here, not her husband.

gods almighty, can't you people parse your own shitty texting?

 

[KoPilot]

Anyways, she's not here anymore, so I'm out.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Anyways, she's not here anymore, so I'm out.

The internet means never having to apologise.


I am so fucking pissed off and triggered, and I am right here.

 

[KoPilot]

The internet means never having to apologise.


I am so fucking pissed off and triggered, and I am right here.

I came here to reply mostly to stuff pertaining to the OP, not get into arguments about who wins the oppression olympics.

I've had 4 drinks already this evening to keep myself from crawling out of my skin; I don't need more.