Age of consent (not a rant on Laurel's take on it)

[SlaveMasterUK]

If I was in this situation, I'd be asking myself if it's worth a prison sentence. Doesn't really matter how well I know and trust the person, it's a sick sick world and some people will go to obscene measures for revenge. What's that saying about a woman scorn'd?

ax

 

[wildsweetone]

sex - society - dogma

I believe that so much of today's society is so wrapped up in trying not to offend anyone that we are actually repressing our own natural instincts.

If two people enjoy being together, enjoy each others company or more simply put, enjoy s e x, then why the heck shouldn't they do whatever they want?

Surely as a society in general we are striving to overcome the prejudices and inbred preconceived notions of life that have dogged us for generations. Surely as this is 2003 we can put aside ridiculous notions that the little piece of paper we eventually put our name to signing our ties to another, is little more than that... a piece of paper.

Why is it so difficult for us as a species to simply go out and get what we want? If we find enjoyment oogling a person 20 years older or younger than we are, then why shouldn't we just go right ahead and blatantly oogle? If we wanted to take several people to be our spouses, why shouldn't we?

So much of what we do is governed by being politically correct. Perhaps if we all carried on as we instinctively wanted to, and did it with due 'respect' for others, then the world might well be a more realistically nice place to live.

The only thing I say about the 'underage' scenario is that I hope the young person is fully aware of any possible consequences resulting from having sex. The age doesn't matter. It's whether or not he/she is aware of todays necessity of having safe sex.

This whole age thing sucks big time. So what if a man in his 60s drools over a woman in her 20s. So what if it's vice versa. Who the heck should care about it? If the couple/threesome/etc like each other, respect each other, then isn't that all that really matters?

god i waffled again. sorry.

TheEarl, my suggestion is that you do what your heart guides you to do. If it feels right, then do it. If it feels wrong, then don't. Simple eh.

 

[TheEarl]

To reiterate: I am not going out with her and have made my decision. It's more of an example rather than a request for advice.

The Earl

PS. For Him Magazine. To whoever asked what FHM stood for.

 

[English Lady]

Back when I was about 17 (oh lord i am getting old, starting sentances with back when I was.....) I went to a youth group. There was a 25 year old guy going out with a 16 year old girl.

I didn't see it as a weird thing, they both looked good together and she seemed very mature for her age. Also I was still pretty niave back then and as this was a christian youth group the thought of anything sexual happening between them just didn't enter my mind!

Anyway, He was waiting in his car outside the school ,waiting for his girlfriend and give her a lift home. The headmaster came out and told him to "sling his hook" or he'd call the police. It kind of hits you when you think about the fact he got in to trouble just by waiting to give his girlfriend a lift.


18 and 14 is not a matter of years difference, especially as girls mature more quickly than boys*S* its the different lifre stages.
I guess you'll be off to university soon, you're doing A-levels? or something similar and she's not even close to GCSE's yet. I think that is what makes the difference.

years mean nothing, its the different life stage your at that matters. the older you get the less age difference matters, because there wouldn't be a fuss about a 32 year old going out with a 28 year old would there?

 

[Weird Harold]

...would you consider a sexual relationship between a 14 y/o and an 18 y/o acceptable?

In 1960, my sister was 14 and dating a senior. I don't know when they started sexual relations, but they've been married for a long time now. (35 years or so.)

I think any arbitrary age as a determinant for legal sexul activity is a flawed concept -- emotional and physical maturity should be the standards, if there are any at all.

My oldest daughter was physically and emotionally mature enough at 14 to decide for herself what she wanted out of a relationship.

My younger daughter is now nearly 25 and I'm still not sure she's emotionally mature enough to make an informed decision about sex and relationships.

As long as there is informed consent on both sides of the relationship and no possibility of abuse of authority/power (actual or perceived) then let the good times roll.

As far as age differences in adult relationships: If those involved don't mind what others think, then I wish them well regardless of their ages or any age difference.

 

[TheWriter]

What Weird Harold said.

In ages past a girl of 14 would probably already be in an arranged marriage and expecting a child if she hadn't already had one. Now we've apparently decided that at a particular age - as WH said it's very arbitrary - that a girl (or boy) is now fully capable of making informed decisions about sex and relationships.

Nevermind the fact that society and the person's parents in particular are the ones who inform them in the first place and now all of a sudden we're all worried about what ills may befall the children. Not to mention that parents are now barely willing to touch their children for fear being seen as a child molester.

I blame Rousseau and his damn stupid idea of childhood, cause the bloody Romantic philosophers kept crapping about innocence and purity and all that shit which wasn't helped by the Church and its ridiculous views about chastity and all that nonsense when you have to wonder at any society that says a girl who has never had sex is something to prize.

There, now that's a rant.

 

[Un-registered]

... Should the age of consent law be modified to state that only people under 25 can have sex with teenagers?

UK law already recognises the difference between U-16s having sex with each other, U-21s having sex with U-16s, and O-21s having sex with U-18s (yes 18). The difference is in the punishment which can be handed out by the courts. For example with your 14-y-o an O-21 can get life imprisonment but you can only get ten years. Two U-16s can get indefinite "until they are reformed" sentences.


Well, you did ask!

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Okay, trusting you people a bit here. Something personal coming up:

I'm best friends with a girl who is 14 y/o and therefore 4 years younger than me. Recently she announced that she liked me. We could quite easily end up as b/f-g/f, but I have demurred because I don't think it'd be fair to form a relationship with her, considering that I will be leaving the area in October and that 4 years is too much at the moment.

Bearing in mind that whatever you say will have no influence on my decision (as it's already made), would you consider a sexual relationship between a 14 y/o and an 18 y/o acceptable? Would you consider a sexual relationship between two 14 y/os acceptable? Should the age of consent law be modified to state that only people under 25 can have sex with teenagers?

The Earl

I've been asked this question several times by male friends, who insist on goin out with teenage girls instead of women their own age. I've caused my friends to cry by being up front with them, but if they ask for my honest opinion, I'll give it to them:

No, I don't think that a person in his/her 20'ies can have a long lasting relationship with a teenager, espeically not when they live far apart. Teenagers are not ready to settle down, they NEED to play around and get that out of their system.

The only exception to this rule that I have seen, is my friend and her 5 years younger boyfriend. They are great together, and I have no doubt that they will grow old together. But apart from them, no, I don't think it will work out.

That's a long lasting relationship. For a short relationship full of love and sex and dating and having fun until you get tired of each other, on the other hand, I think a 14 year old CAN be mature enough to handle that. Provided that the 18 year old doesn't end up hurting the 14 year old, scarring him/her for life.

I've seen 14 year olds have sexual relationships, and I'm a bit about it. That young people just don't have the mental strength to handle being fuckbuddies. A 14 year old with someone older and wiser can work out, unless the 18 year old is immature, too. Age is less important than maturity.

And no, I don't think there should be a law saying that only 25 or younger can date teenagers. Forbidden fruit, and all that. If there was a law like that, I think people would be tempted to fuck teenagers just to spite the law - "no-one's gonna tell ME what I can and can't do!"

 

[SlickTony]

Teenagers are not ready to settle down, they NEED to play around and get that out of their system.

They're certainly not getting that message in my part of the world. Instead, the usual mixed bag that you're supposed to keep yourself pure until marriage but marriage is being pushed up further and further due to economical reasons, so that they fall short of this ideal and sometimes get the guilts. That's for your middle and upper classes. In my job, I get to hear a lot about teenage marriages, which were a lot more likely to work out back in the days when a man could get a union job out of high school that would pay enough to go around the whole family. A McJob, which is what you can mostly expect to get with just a high school education, will not cut it nowadays. Not if you want to buy a house and all. You need two apiece, and then the management rigs your time so you can work over 40 hours and still get part-time wages, and there's no security at all.

And it strikes me also that now is a very uneasy time for the young person that's just naturally curious about sex. There are good reasons why getting behind-the-wheel training, so to speak, from an older person should not be allowed, but if you experiment with people your own age, quite often it's called "acting out," and if you don't get labeled as a sex offender yourself at some impossibly tender age, it's assumed that someone molested you.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

The thing about sex and marriage is that not only do people postpone marriage until they have sex, but they also get feelings of guilt if they have pre-marital sex after being raised to think that sex outside a stable, longlasting, monogamous relationship is wrong.

When I have kids, and they are in their teens, I'll encourage them to date a lot and have as much sex as they feel like having. I'll talk to them about why it's good for them to play around, why it's OK for them to feel like doing this or that, and how to protect themselves from diseases, pregnancies, rumours, heartbreaks, etc. I'll let them bring their girlfriends/boyfriends over to stay the night, and I'll buy condoms for them.

I'll explain the difference between a boyfriend/girlfriend and a fuckbuddy to them, and I'll make sure that for each new relationship they get into, no matter what age difference there is or isn't, they will know exactly what kind of relationship they are into. I'll also encourage them to focus mainly on partners that are mature, no matter if the age difference is 1 year or 10 ten years!

 

[Un-registered]

When I have kids, and they are in their teens, I'll encourage them to date a lot and have as much sex as they feel like having. I'll talk to them about why it's good for them to play around, why it's OK for them to feel like doing this or that, and how to protect themselves from diseases, pregnancies, rumours, heartbreaks, etc. I'll let them bring their girlfriends/boyfriends over to stay the night, and I'll buy condoms for them.

I'll explain the difference between a boyfriend/girlfriend and a fuckbuddy to them, and I'll make sure that for each new relationship they get into, no matter what age difference there is or isn't, they will know exactly what kind of relationship they are into. I'll also encourage them to focus mainly on partners that are mature, no matter if the age difference is 1 year or 10 ten years!

MUCH easier said than done. Take it from me (and my 'little baby' youngest is 29) your ideas change when it is your little girl, especially.

 

[TheEarl]

I'm not planning on going out with her! It's an example rather than a request for advice. Jeez, I wish I'd used a hypothetical now.

UK law already recognises the difference between U-16s having sex with each other, U-21s having sex with U-16s, and O-21s having sex with U-18s (yes 18). The difference is in the punishment which can be handed out by the courts. For example with your 14-y-o an O-21 can get life imprisonment but you can only get ten years. Two U-16s can get indefinite "until they are reformed" sentences.

Really? This is not an area of the law which I am that familiar with (beyond 16 being the age of consent). Can a 22 y/o get imprisoned for having sex with a 17 y/o in England then? Is it still the case with two U16s that in the eyes of the law, it is all the boy's fault?

The Earl

 

[jon.hayworth]

If you want to risk going to gaol for a bit of poontang, go ahead. I think it would be stupid to risk it, personally.


Personally I believe that the Age of Consent should be split with some lower limit, then a band where parental consent is required, then an upper limit where the person concerned has sole responsibility. Among my own grandchildren there is one (a girl) who was indulging (with a parental blind eye) at 15, is now 18, and was perfectly capable of handling it. Another (a boy) at 17 now would be far too immature to handle it (IMHO).


UK law already recognises the difference between U-16s having sex with each other, U-21s having sex with U-16s, and O-21s having sex with U-18s (yes 18). The difference is in the punishment which can be handed out by the courts. For example with your 14-y-o an O-21 can get life imprisonment but you can only get ten years. Two U-16s can get indefinite "until they are reformed" sentences.


Well, you did ask!

Un-registered, thanks for making the point that I had intended to make myself. However although you quoted the statute book. The guidlines say that sex between under 18s and over 14s will only be prosecuted in exceptional circumstances and the decision has to be made at a senior level. One reason for this is that the age of consent in the UK is higher than in other European Countries and therefore a prosecution under UK law would probably break the Convention on Human Rights. It is also probable that within the next 3 or 4 years - the time it takes to reach the European Court the rest of those complicated consent laws introduced by Blunket will be thrown out. One glaring error is that people can regardless of the spouses age marry at 16, with parental consent in England and Wales without in Scotland; but may under the new laws break the age of consent.
As always Laws made in haste are bad law and in the end make the lawyers a lot of money.

jon

 

[Svenskaflicka]

The Art of Compromising

Me and hubby had a discussion about this. I said I wouldn't mind our kids starting to have sex at the age of 16, perhaps even younger, if they were mature enough.

Hubby suggested the age of 45.

The negotiations will continue...

 

[MathGirl]

Re: The Art of Compromising

The negotiations will continue...

Is that what they're calling it now days? Hah!
MG

 

[Guest]

Been there, done that....

Earl-

I was the 14 yr old going out with the 19 yr old. My parents didn't seem to mind. My friends' parents weren't really happy though. We didn't 'go all the way' but were pretty heavy in our petting.

Looking back, it wasn't the worst thing in the world, but it probably wasn't the best, either. We had lots in common-- we were both in theatre and enjoyed going to the Art Institute -- and, honestly, the guys my age were not interested in the things I was into. I think the saving grace was that neither of us were legal for alcohol.

More troubling, by far, was when I was 16 and dating a 27 yr old. I don't know what my parents were thinking. Again, we were both in theatre and loved the arts, but he was definitely more into the 'adult' scene... no, not XXX, but going to bars and clubs that catered to young professionals. I was definitely out of my league.

I think he loved having someone hang on his every word an I loved having a boyfriend who took me to nice places and drove a real car. Again, I remained a virgin, but not by a whole lot.

Am I irrevocable damaged? Did I finally seek counseling to deal with my father deficit? No and no. Fortunately, no permanent physical damage was done (STD's or pregnancy) and I think of both of these men with fondness.

Being the mother of four daughters, I have different views then Svenska. There are no 100% effective protections against STD's and I have seen too many young women start having abnormal pap smears at younger and younger ages, due to HPV.

Is a 19 yr old a sleaze ball for hitting on a 14 yr old? Only if he went out deliberately looking for one. If the relationship flows naturally out of a friendship or a common group of friends, I think it comes back to the 'velcro principle'. Men and women are like velcro; put them together and they'll stick.

b

 

[jfinn]

There's something else I think is important to consider when your thinking about dating someone way out of your age group and that's the balance of power. I don't care how smart and sophisticated a fifteen or sixteen year old (or younger) may appear, they are not going to be able to maintain anything approaching an equal partnership with an adult, Nabokov and that damned Lolita to the contrary.

I think Bridget touched on that when she said her 27 year old boyfriend seemed to be mainly interested in her as an adoring audience. I'll bet that kind of expected behavior didn't leave her a lot of decision making options in their relationship. And she was lucky, the man apparently was honorable enough to not push her into something she wasn't ready for. I'm sure that's not the way it alway is though.

As a kid I wasn't interested in dating outside of my age and comfort zone, but I had plenty of friends who did. The ones I still know all regret it to some extent. Even those that thought at the time that they were in control, now realize that what the reality was they were being at best, indulged, and at worst, manipulated.

I'm not talking about the fourteen and eighteen year old thing, though I'd have to agree with the English Lady, the real problem there is not the age difference, but the difference in status. Forget about the laws about sex, a fourteen year can't even legally drive a car, or in the US at least, hold down a job or quit school.

No, what I'm talking about is when a mature adult of either sex has a relationship with a minor especially when there is an age gap of ten or more years. And sure there are exceptions, but I think they're so few and far between it's really not realistic to use them as an argument.

Besides what's the rush? Why should a teenager not spend those years exploring within their peer group where everybody is on a level playing field? Even those few that are mature enough to handle more, could still stand to wait a few years. You have the rest of your life to be an adult, but you really are a teenager only once. And you can't go back later to your missed prom that you didn't go to because your thirty year old boyfriend didn't want to dance in a gym in his stocking feet.

Jayne

 

[Guest]

Amen, sister friend!

Besides what's the rush? Why should a teenager not spend those years exploring within their peer group where everybody is on a level playing field? Even those few that are mature enough to handle more, could still stand to wait a few years. You have the rest of your life to be an adult, but you really are a teenager only once. And you can't go back later to your missed prom that you didn't go to because your thirty year old boyfriend didn't want to dance in a gym in his stocking feet.

Jayne

Preach on, sister!

(and I love your AV!)

b

 

[TheEarl]

I'd like to take issue with the idea of it being impossible to form a relationship with someone who's in a different age group to you. I'm literally young enough to be the son of several people round here. I'm not even in the same generation, let alone the same age group, but I don't think there's really been any problem.

The Earl

 

[SlickTony]

I'd like to take issue with the idea of it being impossible to form a relationship with someone who's in a different age group to you. I'm literally young enough to be the son of several people round here. I'm not even in the same generation, let alone the same age group, but I don't think there's really been any problem.

Well, Earl, you've got a point there...

You have the rest of your life to be an adult, but you really are a teenager only once. And you can't go back later to your missed prom that you didn't go to because your thirty year old boyfriend didn't want to dance in a gym in his stocking feet.

Jayne, I didn't go to the god-damned prom anyway. When I was in HS most of the guys were intimidated by my vocabulary and bookishness. I was somewhat of a nerd. In addition, I looked younger than my age so that when I floated across their field of vision, what came into their heads was "too young to bother with". There's nothing for me to go back to.

WRT Un-registered's relationship with the 30something woman when he was approaching/into his 60s, no, there's nothing disgusting about that. Everybody knows that a 30something woman is approaching her apogee of hotness and knows what she's doing, and any 60YO, if he has either the skills or enough lead left in his pencil to keep up with her, more power to him.

 

[MathGirl]

Lolitaism, Lolalititis, Lolitatarianism,....

I believe that a relationship between a teenaged girl and an older man is a perfect recipe for disaster. 99% of the time it will end badly for both parties involved.

My perspective on this is different than most, because I was in exactly that kind of relationship. I was a teenager, and he was twenty years older. I wasn't the average Lolita, though, and he wasn't the average Humbert Humbert. I never went to high school, so I mostly missed being a "teenager." He always treated me with love and respect. I, of course, worshiped him. I still do, and we're going to be married this summer when I finish my PhD.

I am totally against this sort of relationship, because the odds of it ending well are astronomical. The vast majority of people on either end of such a relationship simply can't handle it over the long run. I say this, even though my experience was and is positive in all ways. He's my lover, teacher, mentor, and friend.

I would do absolutely anything in my power to prevent a daughter of mine to enter into a relationship like that, though. The odds are just too long against it. Unlike others who are commenting on this, I have the perspective of personal involvement. I think that lends credibility to my views.

MG

 

[wildsweetone]

just a different perspective and coincidentally...

My daughter (nearly 15yo) came home last night, took me to one side and told me about a friend of hers.

Her friend hasn't been at school since the beginning of the year, she's been completing her schooling via correspondence. This friend is 15 and has just gotten engaged to the 22yo father of her as yet unborn child (she is five months pregnant).

The friend is over the moon with happiness. She is a bright girl, she knew what she wanted and she went out and got it. She loves her partner.

 

[MathGirl]

Re: just a different perspective and coincidentally...

My daughter (nearly 15yo) came home last night, took me to one side and told me about a friend of hers.

Her friend hasn't been at school since the beginning of the year, she's been completing her schooling via correspondence. This friend is 15 and has just gotten engaged to the 22yo father of her as yet unborn child (she is five months pregnant).
.

Dear WSO,
I wish them well, but we both know what the odds are.

I went from junior high to college, so the situation was a lot different. Also, he would have never touched me without birth control.
MG

 

[Un-registered]

Pablo Picasso was 60 when he planned to marry a girl of 16.

I friend pointed out, "Pablo. Think. When she is just thirty you will be 74."

Picasso's reply was, "Well ... I could always get another 16 year old."

That kind of thinking aside, I suspect that it is the ratio of the ages that matters, not the difference. Taking legal marriages 26 with 16 looks very odd. Ratio more than 1.6:1. 58 with 48 doesn't look anything like as odd. Ratio about 1.2:1

 

[Just-Legal]

No, I don't think that a person in his/her 20'ies can have a long lasting relationship with a teenager, espeically not when they live far apart. Teenagers are not ready to settle down, they NEED to play around and get that out of their system.

Man, SK I really disagree with this!

My second partner was 26, and I was 17. We lasted about a year, but then again it was a twisted relationship so I don't know if that counts.

I have NEVER wanted to play around. I'm 20, engaged and happy. In my life I've had three sexal partners. When I was younger I didn't want to EVER sleep with anyone because all I saw and heard were boys bragging about girls they'd supposedly bedded, and I didn't want to join them.

Its a matter of personal choice and maturity... If you feel in your heart you're ready then you're ready.

And hey, I thought my dad was *joking* when me and my ex split up... can he really get him done for sex with a 17 year old?

*evil grin*