Ageplay/The Lolita Fetish

[Betticus]

For me, the first thing I need resolved is if we're talking about our adult sexual fantasies and explorations with fellow adults, are we talking about whether or not we felt these urges as children, or if we're actually talking about these fantasies/urges as adults with actual children. All three have been eldued to in varying posts but none of been pinned down.

Personally, I believe "age play" is very much a function of what we were as children. I think it is more an enviornmental condition than a genteic one. I got shit to base that off of as far as studies or stats, just my opinion. There is something about the attraction that we as individuals identify with. Whatever the role, whatever the attraction or motiviation, it is something that trips a trigger in us as individuals.

Exploring such fantasies/curiosities with other adults whom we trust takes a lot of courage and those who do should prepared for whatever other mental/emotional triggers they unexpected uncover.

I'm not at all down on the OP, at least as I understand her post. That being someone who is trying to confront this real part of her and trying to work through what it all means in a healthy, positive way.

That said, and yes, there has to be one in every edgy discussion...



That is one of the most disturbing and scary posts I've ever read. To even elude, or vaguely consider, that a child, despite their inclinations and desires, could POSSIBLY be considered a consenting party is absurd at best.

As a former police officer who trained in and encountered far too much child sexual abuse, as a parent, and hell even as a kinkster who was masturbating at such a young age I didn't even ejaculate, I completely and totally dismiss this notion. I don't know what the "magical" age for consent and I'm not going to argue that as yes, I do believe individuals vary. But I also know some line must be drawn and an age agreed upon to best portect the mass majority. A child is a child. They have ZERO concept of consequences. Hell, they have ZERO concept of the day after tomorrow, let alone long term impacts.

When I was 16 I had sex with a 25 year old "woman." Man, was I hit or what with the boys? Damn right I was. Yep, I was the shit. But ya know what, 20+ years later I look back on that experience with not much more than disgust. There wasn't anything right or magical about that experience, no matter how I felt at the time. And yeah we did it more than once. Looking back, it was just an extremely horny teenager get his dick wet. There wasn't any real passion or anything, even though I was sure there was at the time. As I've grown older and exlored and learned more and more about myself, I realise that my most precious and guarded sexual encounters have been with those with whom I've felt a true deep connection. And there is no way I could have felt that in my early years.

And for the record, I was married at 18, to an older woman, and we'll be celebrating our 19th anniversary soon.

Netzach made an excellent point about regression and transformation, let's not, Catalina, confuse the two.

Okay, sorry, but that post bothered me.

Back to the discussion...

I have to say that your post is the most disturbing one I've read here. Yes, as a police officer you are subjected to the worst mankind has to offer but we are talking about a gray area here.

We try to remain very non judgemental and be careful to not flame out other members here because we do have people who have been subjected to terrible abuse or are scared to share their own experiences for fear of what you just did.

We do try to help people who come on to understand without judgement the how and why of these things. Someone out there who reads this forum may just be put off of seeking help with your blatant reassurance that she/he will be treated poorly at the hands of the very people he/she needs to understand.

As far as what Cat said the historical data is out there for anyone to discover. Through history children were not only introduced to sexuality at very early ages those activities were normal in their societies. Society was a lot different back then, girls got married as young as 11 years old to much older men. There is even a tribe in Africa that still today practices a boys adulthood ritual at an early age where the boy is partnered with an older man and is not considered a man in his tribe until he takes in the essence of an adult male. Meaning a blowjob with swallowing in our culture. For them it's normal.

Can a three year old girl give consent or even be aware of what is happening... no. Can a fifteen year old girl? Yes she can. Maybe if our society weren't so fucked up about extending the age of childhood into the twenties and beyond we wouldn't need all of those high schools with student day care centers in them.

I think the moderators should delete your post along with mine before they cause someone irreparable harm.

P.S. I do not advocate breaking the law.

 

[BiBunny]

For me, the first thing I need resolved is if we're talking about our adult sexual fantasies and explorations with fellow adults, are we talking about whether or not we felt these urges as children, or if we're actually talking about these fantasies/urges as adults with actual children. All three have been eldued to in varying posts but none of been pinned down.

Personally, I believe "age play" is very much a function of what we were as children. I think it is more an enviornmental condition than a genteic one. I got shit to base that off of as far as studies or stats, just my opinion. There is something about the attraction that we as individuals identify with. Whatever the role, whatever the attraction or motiviation, it is something that trips a trigger in us as individuals.

Exploring such fantasies/curiosities with other adults whom we trust takes a lot of courage and those who do should prepared for whatever other mental/emotional triggers they unexpected uncover.

I'm not at all down on the OP, at least as I understand her post. That being someone who is trying to confront this real part of her and trying to work through what it all means in a healthy, positive way.

That said, and yes, there has to be one in every edgy discussion...



That is one of the most disturbing and scary posts I've ever read. To even elude, or vaguely consider, that a child, despite their inclinations and desires, could POSSIBLY be considered a consenting party is absurd at best.

As a former police officer who trained in and encountered far too much child sexual abuse, as a parent, and hell even as a kinkster who was masturbating at such a young age I didn't even ejaculate, I completely and totally dismiss this notion. I don't know what the "magical" age for consent and I'm not going to argue that as yes, I do believe individuals vary. But I also know some line must be drawn and an age agreed upon to best portect the mass majority. A child is a child. They have ZERO concept of consequences. Hell, they have ZERO concept of the day after tomorrow, let alone long term impacts.

When I was 16 I had sex with a 25 year old "woman." Man, was I hit or what with the boys? Damn right I was. Yep, I was the shit. But ya know what, 20+ years later I look back on that experience with not much more than disgust. There wasn't anything right or magical about that experience, no matter how I felt at the time. And yeah we did it more than once. Looking back, it was just an extremely horny teenager get his dick wet. There wasn't any real passion or anything, even though I was sure there was at the time. As I've grown older and exlored and learned more and more about myself, I realise that my most precious and guarded sexual encounters have been with those with whom I've felt a true deep connection. And there is no way I could have felt that in my early years.

And for the record, I was married at 18, to an older woman, and we'll be celebrating our 19th anniversary soon.

Netzach made an excellent point about regression and transformation, let's not, Catalina, confuse the two.

Okay, sorry, but that post bothered me.

Back to the discussion...

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I hesitated to post this in the first place.

Bunny was never abused. Bunny was never exposed to anything sexual, other than the things she read in books and magazines, until well in her teens. Nonetheless, Bunny had these recurring fantasies at a very young age. Bunny does not advocate the abuse of children at all, but Bunny has masturbated to her little fantasy since she was about 7 or so and still does.

I'll be bowing out of this discussion now. My apologies for even bringing it up.

 

[neonflux]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I hesitated to post this in the first place.

Bunny was never abused. Bunny was never exposed to anything sexual, other than the things she read in books and magazines, until well in her teens. Nonetheless, Bunny had these recurring fantasies at a very young age. Bunny does not advocate the abuse of children at all, but Bunny has masturbated to her little fantasy since she was about 7 or so and still does.

I'll be bowing out of this discussion now. My apologies for even bringing it up.

As I said in my first post, it was brave to start this thread. It is bound to bring up many conflicting emotions and opinions, which is why it is important. I am sure that those of us who have responded are not the only ones who have such fantasies or engage in such play. I hope that you will reconsider. Neon

 

[BiBunny]

As I said in my first post, it was brave to start this thread. It is bound to bring up many conflicting emotions and opinions, which is why it is important. I am sure that those of us who have responded are not the only ones who have such fantasies or engage in such play. I hope that you will reconsider. Neon

Thanks, Ms. Neon, but I really don't like feeling like people are disturbed by the fantasies of both myself and my main play partner. Now I understand why no one ever talks about these kinds of things. Like I said, I knew what kind of sexual things I was into at age 7, and that hasn't changed a bit. B. says he can remember similar fantasies from as far back as age 5 or 6.

I apologize to anyone I've offended that my owner and I are so fucked up. I'll be sure to feel overwhelmed with guilt for the little girl I was (or the little boy he was) next time we talk about or act these things out. *Sigh*

 

[subgrl18]

I'll be bowing out of this discussion now. My apologies for even bringing it up.

noo dont apologize, it was a great thread... look at all the people that posted saying they were happy you brought it up and they felt similar... dont let one person bring you down. I am glad u posted it.

 

[Netzach]

Thanks, Ms. Neon, but I really don't like feeling like people are disturbed by the fantasies of both myself and my main play partner. Now I understand why no one ever talks about these kinds of things. Like I said, I knew what kind of sexual things I was into at age 7, and that hasn't changed a bit. B. says he can remember similar fantasies from as far back as age 5 or 6.

I apologize to anyone I've offended that my owner and I are so fucked up. I'll be sure to feel overwhelmed with guilt for the little girl I was (or the little boy he was) next time we talk about or act these things out. *Sigh*

I think you actually will notice if you pay attention to the majority of people posting, that MOST of us relate on some level. Ergo, most of us are OK with the fact that our sexualities develop in childhood without going on to defend baby rape (no one does)

My background was also remarkably devoid of inappropriate events. Well, sexual ones anyway. And I'm still pretty intrigued by that psychological space, without having to "re live" anything for catharsis.

 

[Betticus]

Thanks, Ms. Neon, but I really don't like feeling like people are disturbed by the fantasies of both myself and my main play partner. Now I understand why no one ever talks about these kinds of things. Like I said, I knew what kind of sexual things I was into at age 7, and that hasn't changed a bit. B. says he can remember similar fantasies from as far back as age 5 or 6.

I apologize to anyone I've offended that my owner and I are so fucked up. I'll be sure to feel overwhelmed with guilt for the little girl I was (or the little boy he was) next time we talk about or act these things out. *Sigh*

You spicy little mynx!!!

 

[Betticus]

I think you actually will notice if you pay attention to the majority of people posting, that MOST of us relate on some level. Ergo, most of us are OK with the fact that our sexualities develop in childhood without going on to defend baby rape (no one does)

My background was also remarkably devoid of inappropriate events. Well, sexual ones anyway. And I'm still pretty intrigued by that psychological space, without having to "re live" anything for catharsis.

I am soo going to respond to this as soon as I look up "catharsis".

 

[CutieMouse]

Honestly, bunny, I'm confused as to how anyone even wandered down the mental path that the thread could *possibly* be discussing this with an actual adult/child/pedophile situation in mind. To me it was a discussion of age play, with the persona of a minor and adult... key words being things like play and persona.

I have a few more thoughts on the subject, but it's been a long evening, so I need to think a bit before posting them...

 

[Betticus]

ca·thar·sis (kə-thär'sĭs) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. ca·thar·ses (-sēz)

1. Medicine Purgation, especially for the digestive system.
2. A purifying or figurative cleansing of the emotions, especially pity and fear, described by Aristotle as an effect of tragic drama on its audience.
3. A release of emotional tension, as after an overwhelming experience, that restores or refreshes the spirit.
4. Psychology
1. A technique used to relieve tension and anxiety by bringing repressed feelings and fears to consciousness.
2. The therapeutic result of this process; abreaction.



SmartieNetz! I thought it had something to do with catheters.

 

[Betticus]

Honestly, bunny, I'm confused as to how anyone even wandered down the mental path that the thread could *possibly* be discussing this with an actual adult/child/pedophile situation in mind. To me it was a discussion of age play, with the persona of a minor and adult... key words being things like play and persona.

I have a few more thoughts on the subject, but it's been a long evening, so I need to think a bit before posting them...

Me too. Maybe being a cop he jumps to the worst conclusion first and just reacts to it. Society does condition in automatic guilt for any mention of sex along with children in the same room.

 

[CutieMouse]

Me too. Maybe being a cop he jumps to the worst conclusion first and just reacts to it. Society does condition in automatic guilt for any mention of sex along with children in the same room.

It's kind of like the people who make a point to say their limits are pedophilia, necrophilia, or bestiality... I never bother sayng those are hard limits, beause I can't *imagine* them being considered consensual practices...

 

[satindesire]

To deny that children are sexual creatures is like denying children need food or air to survive. We form our personalities and our sexuality in our youngest years, and there's nothing wrong with that. Trying to deny that part of ourselves because it makes us 'uncomfortable' to me just smacks of some underlying guilt and issues that we refuse to deal with.

When I was 5, I was sexually abused by a family member. At 12 it happened again. When I was 16, my 'best friend' viciously raped me (I was a virgin at the time) and he took something away from me that I could never give to the man I love(d). People view children as sexual objects (not saying it's right, though) -and- children also view their own sexuality as normal, however primitive their understanding of it may be.

Please, this is a delicate topic to discuss and requires tact, subtly and patience on all party members. If you don't have anything nice to say, it's best you don't say it at all.

We here are NOT advocating having sex with children. We are discussing OUR own first sexual thoughts and fantasies. There is a difference between self discovery and self exploration and the exploitation of innocent kids.

The end.

 

[ecstaticsub]

At the risk of being jumped on here I have to admit I had the same reaction to Cat's paragragh that ChainedRebel had. I may be mistaken but it didn't seem to me that he was distubed by Bunny's post, but by the paragraph he quoted by Catalina.

I also don't think children and many teenagers are emotionally able and mature enough to give consent to sexual activity with adults. Children may fantasize about it but it doesn't mean they should do it.

Bunny--I think what you and your partner should be done without guilt. I think children who have thoughts of sex with older adults should be able to fantasize without guilt. I think adults should be able to fantasize about sex with children--as long as it stays a fantasy. We have no pwer over what turns us on. I didn't take your original post as having anything to do with sex with children. But it is a difficult subject especially for those of us who have experienced it as children.

 

[neonflux]

Thanks, Ms. Neon, but I really don't like feeling like people are disturbed by the fantasies of both myself and my main play partner. Now I understand why no one ever talks about these kinds of things. Like I said, I knew what kind of sexual things I was into at age 7, and that hasn't changed a bit. B. says he can remember similar fantasies from as far back as age 5 or 6.

I apologize to anyone I've offended that my owner and I are so fucked up. I'll be sure to feel overwhelmed with guilt for the little girl I was (or the little boy he was) next time we talk about or act these things out. *Sigh*

Well, Ms. Bunny, I think that means that we're both in good company. If you and your partner are fucked up, then me and mine will be joining you in your / Chris' other new thread.

ADDITION: I am about to become my normal overly serious self again. I think that this discussion - of age-play rather than the issue of consent - is healthy, this exploration can be very healthy.

WARNING! Soapbox ----------------->

It is society's attempt to quash all discussion of such desire that I think most contributes to real sexual abuse. I hate, hate, hate current sexual abuse prevention curricula, all of which emphasize this idea of "good touch" and "bad touch," bad touch of course being anything that involves the genitals. This not only makes all sex seem bad at some level, it also makes it difficult for children who have been abused to avoid feeling shame and then blaming themselves if they do experience any pleasure during their abuse. If we just taught kids: 1) that their bodies are theirs and respected their right to say no to any touch with which they felt uncomfortable, including that unwelcome pinch on the cheek by Auntie X; 2) to feel comfortable asking questions and discussing sex - including sexual feelings and pleasure, there would be much less abuse of children.

<----------- stepping off soap box

As someone who, like you, is struggling with my own feelings around this issue, in ways that I don't fully understand yet, isn't age play ultimately a consensual, safe, non-abusive conversation about and exploration of childhood sexual desire? And I define sex as much more than pleasure and plumbing.

Neon

 

[ChainedRebel]

At the risk of being jumped on here I have to admit I had the same reaction to Cat's paragragh that ChainedRebel had. I may be mistaken but it didn't seem to me that he was distubed by Bunny's post, but by the paragraph he quoted by Catalina.

Thank you ma'am for understanding the point I'd hoped to make but obviously failed to.

Let me say again BiBunny, as I said in my orignal reply, I absolutely support your posting of this and exlproation of this from the point of view that I took it.

My reaction was not to your original post nor to the answers given. My reaction was strictly aimed at what Catolina had to say.

Betticus, I will stand in judgement of those whom I have a deep disagreement, and they are free to do the same with me. I take no personal offense to that and even expect it. I will not openly welcome any and all of varying mind sets, I will judge, it's human nature and not altogether a bad one I might add. Touchy bunch for being so supposedly open. But alas, it isn't my intent to distract this thread by bantering with you about judgementalism.

Again, I wasn't discrediting or debating the original post. I simply took exception to the implication that a child can be considered a consenting party. Now, if that itself was the meaning of the original post, and I didn't get that at all, then yes, I disagree.

I meant no offense BiBunny.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

It's kind of like the people who make a point to say their limits are pedophilia, necrophilia, or bestiality... I never bother sayng those are hard limits, beause I can't *imagine* them being considered consensual practices...

You mean all those sheep in Wyoming and Montana don't consent?

Seriously... the conclusion ChainedRebel came to was not one that I would have found reachable or sustainable in any reading of what was said by Cat or anyone else in the thread. The discussion was, as has previously been said, of role play by adults assuming personae for their personal consensual pleasure and/or self-therapy and/or amusement - NOT in any way approving of, advocating, or suggesting actual interaction with those mentally/emotionally incapable of giving informed consent.

Bunny - great thread, great discussion. Please don't drop it because one person let his personal prejudices read the wrong thing(s) into the discussion.

 

[Quint]

...........

 

[Netzach]

My interpretation was that catalina was pointing out that desire exists in children. I didn't see her advocating that anyone be allowed to do things with that desire. Desire is always legal, doing things isn't necessarily. I think most of us at some point have *wanted* to kill someone.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I think this may be the first time I've ever felt it appropriate or necessary to defend something Cat has written, but this time, I definitely do. I feel that her post has been carelessly read, and thoroughly misinterpreted, so I have broken that post into separate sections, with some portions that are basically irrelevant to the idea that she somehow approved of pedophilia snipped, and rephrased them in simpler language - and I defy anyone to break down any or all of those sections in such a way that will show that she is or was suggesting that pedophilic action is acceptable.

I'm also of a mind this is not that unusual in the minds of girls, just it is a taboo subject which most will not tolerate being spoken about in any form which acknowledges that it may actually be the desire of a young girl because gee, that is just promoting paedophilia.

"I think many young girls may have an attraction to older men, but these days, discussing that possibility immediately raises the fear that someone is promoting pedophilia." How many young girls say they're going to marry daddy when they grow up - and how many young boys say they're going to marry mommy when they grow up? Is that pedophilia, or normal development?

I think that is BS as I think of peadophilia as an non-consensual act initiated and coerced by the adult in the situation. Of course there wil be many who will say children and teenagers are not emotionally/mentally mature enough to be able to make that decision and know it is right for them, but how many of us have begun our D/s and SM type fantasies in years of single figure and still are just as sure it is who and what we want?

I don't think I'll bother rephrasing this portion - it's clear and simple, if it's read as it's written.

I for one had such fantasies and desires as a very young child, and I had not been exposed to any overtures or even sexuality at that age. In my early teens there was the incident with my pervy uncle which didn't come to anything because I avoided it knowing it would not be possible without getting caught, that it would not be acceptable, and a lot of fear of 'what if'....but I fuelled fantasies with that one short moment for a lifetime.

"I had those kind of fantasies, and had not been abused or exposed to sexuality. There was an incident at one point that went nowhere because of my knowing that it would not be acceptable, and my fears, but it was an important part of my fantasies for many years." Every experience we have is a part of our life, and sexual experiences are no different. I remember spanking a little neighbor girl's bare hiney when I was 3 or 4 years old, and I'm still spanking bare female hineys now - but not because I spanked hers... I spanked her bottom, and all the bottoms since then, because I like spanking bare bottoms! Have I spanked the bare bottoms of females who said, "Oh, Daddy, that hurts! I'll be a good girl," blah, blah? Hell, yes, and we both enjoyed it, even though I've never had a daughter, and in a couple of cases, she was older than I! It's roleplay, dammit!

I'm not sure how you can make it more believeable for yourself in role play now, but I wouldn't waste time feeling guilty about something you do whichy is in no way wrong. I often wonder that if it were more acceptable for people to talk about their desires, perhaps explore in safe and non-abusive ways which did not involve unsuitable and underage partners, if there would be less peadophilia in the world. It has been shown time and again that complete repression of anything just makes it more of a problem with more serious and negative side effects...making it unmentionable makes it highly dangerous as we are seeing every day in the news.

"I don't know how to improve the experience for you two adults, but don't feel guilty about it, because you are two consenting adults, and you know that it's roleplay. I wonder if people were able to be more open about their desires, 'in safe and non-abusive ways which did not involve unsuitable and underage partners, if there would be less peadophilia in the world.' Prohibition doesn't work - it makes things worse. We've learned - and ignored - that lesson over and over and over."

 

[Betticus]

I'm right in the same place as Sir Winston on this. I think it was a miscommunication.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't know if I should continue this discussion or not. I feel like I'm wandering into dangerous territory. Neither B. nor I advocate the abuse of children, but I'm not going to debate whether or not kids are capable of consent. (That's kind of not the point of this thread, anyway.) I just know that he's said on more than one occasion that if we'd met 15 years ago (I'd have been 8; he'd have been 14), he'd be in the penitentiary right now. And I'd still be waiting for him to get out.

That was a joke, for anyone who missed it.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I think that is BS as I think of peadophilia as an non-consensual act initiated and coerced by the adult in the situation. Of course there wil be many who will say children and teenagers are not emotionally/mentally mature enough to be able to make that decision and know it is right for them, but how many of us have begun our D/s and SM type fantasies in years of single figure and still are just as sure it is who and what we want?

I apologize if I am misinterpreting the meaning here but if pedophilia is a non-consensual act, does that mean that if a child gives consent then it is not pedophilia? If a child in single digit age has desires to be touched sexually by a 30 yr old man and seeks out a man to touch her and finds a man who consents to be with her then they are both consenting. The child may not understand that not all fantasies should be acted on the way that an adult should understand it.

I really don't believe that Calalina was advocating sex with children, it is just the way she said it in my opinion can lead to confusion.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I apologize if I am misinterpreting the meaning here but if pedophilia is a non-consensual act, does that mean that if a child gives consent then it is not pedophilia? If a child in single digit age has desires to be touched sexually by a 30 yr old man and seeks out a man to touch her and finds a man who consents to be with her then they are both consenting. The child may not understand that not all fantasies should be acted on the way that an adult should understand it.

I really don't believe that Calalina was advocating sex with children, it is just the way she said it in my opinion can lead to confusion.

I don't believe children are capable of giving informed consent until they have reached a certain level of logical and emotional maturity, which age will vary by person, but almost certainly (99.999999999999% - that exception rate is 1 in 100,000,000,000, or approximately 15 times the current population of the world) not until somewhere in the mid-teens at the earliest. And yet if some do not reach that level of l/e maturity until they are in their 20s, 30s, ? - should they be somehow protected from their immaturity? There does need to be a line drawn - "Below this age, children are not sufficiently mature or informed to be able to consent" - because people do not mature all at some programmed rate, and thus a point at which one changes from "unable to consent" to "able to consent" of some sort is necessary. Where should that line be drawn? In the U.S., that changes from state to state, ranging from 14 to 18 years old (except in Mississippi, where it is 16, but, "If the female is over 12, the status applies only to virgins." ). So even in this one (admittedly large and populous) country, there is no consensus...

 

[graceanne]

I'll be bowing out of this discussion now. My apologies for even bringing it up.

Don't worry about it. I'm not into age play, but I was enjoying this thread. Frankly I'm a tad bit irritated for chainedrebel for going out of his/her way to make you feel bad.

Some people feel a need to try and explain things like this away as something you do cause you were abused. Why? Cause they still feel that bdsm as kinky and wrong, and therefore no HEALTHY person would do it.

As far as I'm concerned who cares what they think. Do you enjoy doing it? Do you consider yourself dysfunctional? Do you consider ageplay to be something only weirdo's do? Are you keeping it legal and consentual and all that? THEN WHO CARES WHAT THEY THINK? Obviously this is working for you.

And, as Netzach said, I don't think this is as rare as people would like to think.