Ageplay/The Lolita Fetish

[graceanne]

I don't know if I should continue this discussion or not. I feel like I'm wandering into dangerous territory. Neither B. nor I advocate the abuse of children, but I'm not going to debate whether or not kids are capable of consent. (That's kind of not the point of this thread, anyway.) I just know that he's said on more than one occasion that if we'd met 15 years ago (I'd have been 8; he'd have been 14), he'd be in the penitentiary right now. And I'd still be waiting for him to get out.

That was a joke, for anyone who missed it.

I'd suggest you let those who want to get into a debate on the age of consent do that. You came here to talk about adults doing age play. Respond to the posts that pertain to your original post, and let the others fight this out by themselves.

 

[xxCrystal4314xx]

I don't think you should leave the thread either. I think it's a fascinating thread, certainly given me alot to think about.

Don't let it get ya down hon

 

[BiBunny]

Ok, gratuitous bump in honor of my new av. I take different photo sets for B. when I get bored. (Kitty is the official photographer.) This "little girl" set consisted of nearly 100 pictures. We sort of got carried away! Anyway, this av is everyone's favorite, so I decided to put it up.

On with the discussion!

 

[HottieMama]

Ok, gratuitous bump in honor of my new av. I take different photo sets for B. when I get bored. (Kitty is the official photographer.) This "little girl" set consisted of nearly 100 pictures. We sort of got carried away! Anyway, this av is everyone's favorite, so I decided to put it up.

On with the discussion!

LOVE the new AV.... **you've given me an idea for my next set of pics,...**

 

[xxCrystal4314xx]

very nice AV.... can't wait til I can get one (still have no clue how far away that is post wise)

 

[HottieMama]

very nice AV.... can't wait til I can get one (still have no clue how far away that is post wise)

100 posts, sweets!

 

[catalina_francisco]

That is one of the most disturbing and scary posts I've ever read. To even elude, or vaguely consider, that a child, despite their inclinations and desires, could POSSIBLY be considered a consenting party is absurd at best.

As a former police officer who trained in and encountered far too much child sexual abuse, as a parent, and hell even as a kinkster who was masturbating at such a young age I didn't even ejaculate, I completely and totally dismiss this notion. I don't know what the "magical" age for consent and I'm not going to argue that as yes, I do believe individuals vary. But I also know some line must be drawn and an age agreed upon to best portect the mass majority. A child is a child. They have ZERO concept of consequences. Hell, they have ZERO concept of the day after tomorrow, let alone long term impacts.

When I was 16 I had sex with a 25 year old "woman." Man, was I hit or what with the boys? Damn right I was. Yep, I was the shit. But ya know what, 20+ years later I look back on that experience with not much more than disgust. There wasn't anything right or magical about that experience, no matter how I felt at the time. And yeah we did it more than once. Looking back, it was just an extremely horny teenager get his dick wet. There wasn't any real passion or anything, even though I was sure there was at the time. As I've grown older and exlored and learned more and more about myself, I realise that my most precious and guarded sexual encounters have been with those with whom I've felt a true deep connection. And there is no way I could have felt that in my early years.

And for the record, I was married at 18, to an older woman, and we'll be celebrating our 19th anniversary soon.

Netzach made an excellent point about regression and transformation, let's not, Catalina, confuse the two.

Okay, sorry, but that post bothered me.

Back to the discussion...

Here we go again...someone who doesn't have a clue what I was talking about trying to reinterpret my words based on their own interpretation which is coloured by their own thoughts and difficulty in considering the aspects of the discussion as they are clearly stated, instead tainting them with their own thoughts. For the record, you got my post all wrong in terms of your interpretation...not surprising given you are preoccupied with pulling the police officer card to try and add legitimacy to your opinion...and further I have worked with child sexual abuse victims as a professional and in no way advocate the abuse of children in any way. Nor do I have any attraction to role play of any kind, especially age play, I just don't understand it and cannot relate to it on a personal level...but then if you had read threads for awhile here you would already know that about me as I have been asking people for 5 years now to help me understand it. It works for some people and that is good, I am just not wired that way just as some here are not wired to do TPE 24/7 and yet I couldn't envision living any other way...doesn't make one of us right and one of us wrong, just different.

I come from a different direction to you in that to fix a problem you first have to understand it, not react to it....shutting down people who want to discuss aspects of their own feelings as children, their own experiences, and where and why paedophiles (rapists, abusers etc., the list goes on) may act as they do does not in any way help you understand the people who abuse and are abused, and thus stop the problem. It certainly isn't working to threaten and imprison those caught from what I see...in fact, numbers of abused children is rapidly rising, and often results in death to prevent the perpetrator being caught.....does that help you learn how to prevent more children being abused, does it stop the abuse? But then are you really interested in stopping abuse of children, or just attacking those who can discuss it openly without bias and guilt because they have no reason to have guilt, thus making yourself feel important and good? I prefer to deal with the real problem, not stand on an empty soapbox yelling while achieving nothing.

Your post does highlight what I was saying though in the sense that even as adults, we are not permitted to admit to sexual feelings or fantasies we had as children, or discuss the intricacies of such fantasies as children because if we do we are automatically advocating peadophelia is OK. Fortunately, I can look back at how I felt as a child, what my experiences and thoughts were, and how I feel they were natural for me at that time. My fantasies related to BDSM which go back as far as at least 6yo, for me are verified as who I am by my choice of lifestyle and pure freedom I have found in it. Add to that whenever a situation did arise as a child for me to be active sexually with an adult, I moved very quickly and definately in the opposite direction without hesitation and didn't leave myself open to that same situation again. You see, what I felt as a child in terms of relating sexually with an adult on some level has not crossed into my adult life as it holds no attraction to me as an adult. Role play would not do it, age play would not do it as I am no longer a child with all those unexplained, curious feelings wanting to know what they all mean and no amount of pretending to be that child would hold any appeal for me. In case you want to jump and further define what that means in my head by your own head, no, I have never been attracted to children either as an adult or a child.

It is responses from closed minded people such as yourself which hamper the fight against paedophilia because it can't even be discussed on any level without those discussing it being accused of being 'disturbing'. The sad thing is it also distracts attention from those who really should be under the microscope. I'm sorry if dealing with reality in today's world disturbs you....it sure disturbs me, but thank the universe, I don't go around trying to suppress discussion of it to save my sensibilities....I prefer it to be opened up and exposed so the abuse can be understood and stopped. What I define your words and reaction as, seeing as you are quite OK with deciding what I was thinking and saying, is that those who have such problems even discussing the topic actually do so because of their own desires they are not willing to admit to and which are far from healthy in terms of children. It is no accident that some of the most active paedophiles that have been caught are people who have been active as police officers, child advocates, clergy, the very people most vocal and visible about the need to stop the abuse of children and often working in areas for that which puts them in contact with children and above question, and other areas of trust in working with children...it serves as both a provider of victims for their desires as well as a cover of respectability that is rarely questioned thus making it so much easier for them to abuse and escape detection, because stupid people believe them to be above question and actually choose to not believe the child telling how that person of respectability abused them. For myself, when I meet someone who holds such strong views and is busy pointing the finger of accusation at others, from experience, I immediately treat them with suspicion. Sort of like the saying, "While you are pointing one finger at someone else, 3 more are pointing back at you". Have a nice day and try not to be so ignorant as to judge others by what is in your own head please.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

My interpretation was that catalina was pointing out that desire exists in children. I didn't see her advocating that anyone be allowed to do things with that desire. Desire is always legal, doing things isn't necessarily. I think most of us at some point have *wanted* to kill someone.

Thanks Netzach...always knew you were a brilliant woman. And thanks to everyone else who also defended my words in my absence. I am truly touched.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'll be bowing out of this discussion now. My apologies for even bringing it up.

No need to apologise Bunny....if more things were acceptable to discuss openly and honestly in this fucked up society, I am sure there would not be so many people abused, raped and murdered with growing rapidity.

Catalina

 

[xxCrystal4314xx]

100 posts, sweets!

Thanks hon... boy do I need to get busy, huh ?

 

[Guest]

From a child's point of view, is it really desire, tho - or a physiological response to..? Something akin to a teenage boy's unwanted erections (heh, well - I guess taht is desire, but it's certainly not always desired).

Thinking back to a time when my son was 3. We were on vacation in a hot place, and I've always maintained that up to a certain point/age, family nudity really isn't a huge deal. We'd been swimming and having come back, I'd given him a bath to clean off the sand and suncreen and such, and then it was naptime. At the time he really objected to clothing just as general priciple, as kids do. So I didn't bother with his pj's and gave him a sheet. I had a bit of a laydown as well, often the only way to get him to nap at the time was to do so yourself.

A short time later I cracked open my eyes and peeked over to see if he was sleeping. OK - weirdness. My three year old has pushed his sheet back and had a hard on and is looking at me with a very strange expression on his face - so help me if it wasn't a kind of guilty desirous thing. And he was also quite aware of his erection.

It was pretty spooky remembering my past and the abuse I had at that age. Mild in comparison to what many experienced, but I still call it abuse as it was not informed and consensual, and I do believe it contributed to a lot of my present sexuality.

I slammed my eyes shut and decided it was best to ignore it completely. But I wondered about it. Was this merely a weird physical reaction or was there actually something going on inside that little brain of his?

ETA - one of the weirdest past was that he did look guilty/sneaky. I suppose that could have been a projection of mine, but the big thought was - where could he have gotten the idea already that this was such a shameful/dirty thing? At that point he had never been in anyone's care but mine or his father's and it was very strange.

I too disagree with the present teaching system as it does teach shame, rather than self-respect.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I apologize if I am misinterpreting the meaning here but if pedophilia is a non-consensual act, does that mean that if a child gives consent then it is not pedophilia? If a child in single digit age has desires to be touched sexually by a 30 yr old man and seeks out a man to touch her and finds a man who consents to be with her then they are both consenting. The child may not understand that not all fantasies should be acted on the way that an adult should understand it.

I really don't believe that Calalina was advocating sex with children, it is just the way she said it in my opinion can lead to confusion.

I don't see children as capable of giving consent at a young age, but I also do not believe that the magical age of consent in developed nations is the correct age for all those it relates to...for one thing, some are mature enough before the age of consent, some are still not mature enough at 30...but the government defines an age which they think appropriate and which differs in each nation which makes it even more ridiculous. And yes, perhaps I could have wrded it better to make the meaning clearer, but you get that when you have a week which has you on the hop constantly with only a snatched minute here and there to jump on the PC in passing...it is life at it's best. Sheesh, F wouldn't even let me call him Daddy, let alone have him role play it or advocate it as an acceptable sexual relationship in RL.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I don't believe children are capable of giving informed consent until they have reached a certain level of logical and emotional maturity, which age will vary by person, but almost certainly (99.999999999999% - that exception rate is 1 in 100,000,000,000, or approximately 15 times the current population of the world) not until somewhere in the mid-teens at the earliest. And yet if some do not reach that level of l/e maturity until they are in their 20s, 30s, ? - should they be somehow protected from their immaturity? There does need to be a line drawn - "Below this age, children are not sufficiently mature or informed to be able to consent" - because people do not mature all at some programmed rate, and thus a point at which one changes from "unable to consent" to "able to consent" of some sort is necessary. Where should that line be drawn? In the U.S., that changes from state to state, ranging from 14 to 18 years old (except in Mississippi, where it is 16, but, "If the female is over 12, the status applies only to virgins." ). So even in this one (admittedly large and populous) country, there is no consensus...

LOL, is it great minds think alike or fools seldom differ? I hadn't read your response before posting my last post.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

From a child's point of view, is it really desire, tho - or a physiological response to..? Something akin to a teenage boy's unwanted erections (heh, well - I guess taht is desire, but it's certainly not always desired).

Thinking back to a time when my son was 3. We were on vacation in a hot place, and I've always maintained that up to a certain point/age, family nudity really isn't a huge deal. We'd been swimming and having come back, I'd given him a bath to clean off the sand and suncreen and such, and then it was naptime. At the time he really objected to clothing just as general priciple, as kids do. So I didn't bother with his pj's and gave him a sheet. I had a bit of a laydown as well, often the only way to get him to nap at the time was to do so yourself.

A short time later I cracked open my eyes and peeked over to see if he was sleeping. OK - weirdness. My three year old has pushed his sheet back and had a hard on and is looking at me with a very strange expression on his face - so help me if it wasn't a kind of guilty desirous thing. And he was also quite aware of his erection.

It was pretty spooky remembering my past and the abuse I had at that age. Mild in comparison to what many experienced, but I still call it abuse as it was not informed and consensual, and I do believe it contributed to a lot of my present sexuality.

I slammed my eyes shut and decided it was best to ignore it completely. But I wondered about it. Was this merely a weird physical reaction or was there actually something going on inside that little brain of his?

ETA - one of the weirdest past was that he did look guilty/sneaky. I suppose that could have been a projection of mine, but the big thought was - where could he have gotten the idea already that this was such a shameful/dirty thing? At that point he had never been in anyone's care but mine or his father's and it was very strange.

I too disagree with the present teaching system as it does teach shame, rather than self-respect.

LOL, I think for many it is desire. My son also used to get erections even as a baby, but when I caught him masturbating at 2 in front of the cartoons on TV I figured he was just as sexual as I was and gave him a little chat later on about doing such things in a more private place. He never did it in the open again but I don't think his desires went away.

Catalina

 

[Guest]

I, too, express thanks to BiBunny for starting this thread. Yes, a very very sensitive topic, but worth discussion. For me at least, it allows me to read some very informed opinions about something that I need/want to explore.

I don't post often in this forum, as quite frankly, some of the stuff I see here scares the absolute shit out of me.

If I put that aside as "each to their own", however, one thing I can say about this forum that for the most part I see a lot of very intelligent and learned people.

 

[Quint]

...........

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm sorry, but chill the HELL out please. Speaking of putting words in peoples' mouths....snarky little comments like:











Pure theatrics, ad hominem attacks, and totally missing the point. If that's how you feel, fine and dandy, but if your purpose is to clarify your respective positions and reach a level of mutual understanding, you tanked badly and very much lost the moral upper hand. If you read what he actually said*, what he found disturbing was NOT the fact that children have desires, but that he interpreted your words** as saying "children can give consent." If there was a misunderstanding, clear it up. But spare us the melodrama, por favor.

But then again, "I come from a different direction to you in that to fix a problem you first have to understand it, not react to it," so what the hell do I know?

*ChainedRebel, once more for the record

**in reference to catalina_francisco

Nah Quint, I am just human and have my hot points the same as you and everyone else. Fortunately, most here didn't have problems with my words and I do think I have just as much right to defend myself as you would in the same position. I have learned over time that sitting back and being nicey nice with some people just doesn't work (took me 40 years to learn it and change, but I have), and sometimes you actually have a right to be upset about someone's rewording of what you have said to mean what it would have meant from their own mind, and just sometimes to return the favour wakes them up to how it feels and they think next time before deciding they know your thoughts better than you do. Sorry if I am human and from time to time react in something other than cool detachment, but then I usually do not have time or patience to sit on it for hours, type it up, redraft and spellcheck it, make sure it is politically correct and wait to cool down before posting...that's me, so shoot me for having emotions which don't fit cool, calm and collected criteria some might expect.

I said what I had to say, take it or leave it...if you react with more control when accused of something that is absolutely not you and something which you detest deep in your soul, and you are doing half a dozen other things at the same time, my hat's off to you for that quality. I am also not on this forum to win anything, moral ground or otherwise, just have discussions about the lifestyle and kink we live without having someone who doesn't know me come along and reinterpret my words incorrectly and expect me to sit down quietly and take it...thought you would know by now that just because I identify as a slave does not mean I do not have a voice or an opinion or the ability to stand up for myself. As we all know, we are all different. As to clearing up what I meant in the original post referred to, if you read through the posts you will see I have, but still do not apologise for my reaction, especially as I read on and found all but a couple of the people on the forum knew exactly what I was saying and didn't have a problem with it, in fact defending my words while I was blissfully unaware what had been directed at me.

Catalina

 

[ChainedRebel]

I will address this one final time and then be done with it.

Contrary to Graceanne's post, I in no way, shape or form intended to make BiBunny feel bad. Perhaps a more careful reading of my posts to this thread would be in order. Nevertheless, I've already apologized to her for any misunderstanding my posts might have caused.

For the rest of you who seem so quick to condemn judgementalism yet are so quick to judge or who accuse me of flamming yet allow others to attack me far worse, I'm no newbie to Lit and the BDSM Talk forum. I was here long ago and I left for just this reason.

I did not play a "cop card" nor did I base what I said on my own biasness or any of that bullshit. I went off of what I read and my interperatation of those words. Funny thing the written word, it lacks tone or facial expressions, it is, essentially flat. And therefore can and will be interperated in many different ways by the individuals who read it.

They teach you in any type of instructional, public speaking, counciling, et al training, that communication is 90% the responsibility of the giver and 10% the responsibility of the receiver. Go figure. You won't always communicate your chosen intent the way you want every time or get every person to understand it, as my posts obviously point out, but you must try. And when it fails, it is best to look to yourself than to attack the receiver for misunderstanding.

Betticus says posts like mine may drive new folks away from Lit and make them apprehensive of posting. Perhaps. But perhaps just as likely is your closed minded rallying of the wagons.

I'm quite dissappointed.

 

[Betticus]

We've all totally hijacked this thread by arguing about an issue that can't be resolved and that is off of the original topic.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

We've all totally hijacked this thread by arguing about an issue that can't be resolved and that is off of the original topic.

Agreed, and I'll repeat what I said before:

Bunny - great thread, great discussion. Please don't drop it

- or anyone else drop it, either. I think we've all agreed that there was some misinterpretation involved in the hijack, and some anger - whether righteous or otherwise - but we've all had a chance to cool down a bit from that issue, and now we can let people get back to the original topic, because it is one that affects a noticeable portion of our culture.

 

[graceanne]

I've been taking care of kids most of my life. What I know is that all children want to touch themselves. If it's in public I just push their hand away and remind them that's something you do in private. I never make a big deal about it - their's nothing wrong with them wanting to touch themselves - it's natural to want to do things that feel good. But they do need to learn discretion. lol

 

[Bi_Kitty]

Bunny am glad you posted this. Get other people's intake on it. (Even though there has been some arguing.)

Anyone got any ideas for a photo shoot? I'm feeling froggy.

 

[Chris_Xavier]

What is going on here?

I am kinda at loss for all the discord I'm reading in these posts. I think there was a basic misunderstanding of "Darth Bunny's" intent. Isn't her whole supposition that it is a fantasy? Nobody said anything about pedophilia or questioning a minor's ability to consent.

What she expressed was a combination of ageplay and rape fantasy. She is a young woman (teenager or pre-teen) and is willingly drawn into a sexual situation not entirely of her own making; she knows the dangers involved.. knows its wrong but goes anyway.

Its a fantasy people.. wake up!! All she wants to know is has anybody else had the same thoughts run around in their noggin. If she wanted a morality lesson, she'da gone to church (and probably been struck by lightening but hey.. she knows the risks involved).

 

[Earthgoddess]

Bravo

Thank you to all the brave posters, my own fetish for ageplay/Victoriana play has always been an issue, my hubby who is completely wonderful simply can not indulge my "rosebud wanted for deflowering" and I too have had this fantasy for most of my life-certainly by age 10 or so, lol over 30 years now.

I have through cyber been able to work on these intense ideas, and just recently have been lucky enough to finally meet (on-line )a man who is willing to run with these fantasies and let me explore safely. So with uber-hubby's permission and blessing I am now embarking on a thorough exploration.

 

[BiBunny]

I am kinda at loss for all the discord I'm reading in these posts. I think there was a basic misunderstanding of "Darth Bunny's" intent. Isn't her whole supposition that it is a fantasy? Nobody said anything about pedophilia or questioning a minor's ability to consent.

What she expressed was a combination of ageplay and rape fantasy. She is a young woman (teenager or pre-teen) and is willingly drawn into a sexual situation not entirely of her own making; she knows the dangers involved.. knows its wrong but goes anyway.

Its a fantasy people.. wake up!! All she wants to know is has anybody else had the same thoughts run around in their noggin. If she wanted a morality lesson, she'da gone to church (and probably been struck by lightening but hey.. she knows the risks involved).

I think you're pretty much right (about both what you wrote in your second paragraph AND the fact that I'd get struck by lightning if I went to church ).

I'm not sure I'd classify it as role play. Well, it is ageplay and role play in the strictest sense of the word because I'm obviously not a pre-pubescent girl anymore. I don't know. It's a big part of who I am, I believe, but I don't think it defines me completely, either. I think that devilish little girl's still down inside somewhere, and she likes to come out and play occasionally. I certainly couldn't be in a relationship with someone who couldn't acknowledge and help me explore that part of me, so that must mean it's pretty damn important to me. If nothing else, it's a lot more elaborate than most role play.

I don't know that it's a rape thing, either. The little girl knows that she wants to do "this," but she doesn't necessarily know all that "this" entails. I'd say it's more of a consenting child slavery situation. Little girl wants to be touched and used, wants to be allowed to serve, and wants to adore her Master in every way. In some ways, it's similar to Daddy/baby girl relationships. I think it differs in its intensity, however.

This little girl is not completely innocent in her desires, but she's not blatantly seducing older men, either. At the age that I fantasize about, I was tying myself up in a rudimentary way and experimenting with light S&M, so it's no surprise that in my thoughts (and in many of the times B. and I have played with this), the older, kinky man discovers the little girl in some kind of bondage that she's created for herself. At first, he's worried that someone has done something horrible to her, but when she explains that she's done it herself, he tells her that she's playing "big girl" games, but if she'd like to explore it further, he'll help her. The answer is invariably "yes."

Hell, I don't know. Maybe it is just some kind of elaborate role play I've made up in my own mind that isn't really relevant to anyone else. (I swear, this isn't a "Darth Bunny" wank thread. )

Anybody who wants to approach this from either the male PYL side or the little-boy side is welcome, too. (Not that anyone else is unwelcome!) When my brain is more in gear, I may approach it from the other side, the "I'm-corrupting-the-little-boy" side, too. What strikes me about the whole thing is that while there's this HUGE taboo against talking about it, both B. and me have this fantasy. So either we're way more alike than we already believed, or it's way more common than anyone wants to admit.