An Open Letter To All First-Time Writers

[Mrtouf]

I couldn't have put it better myself. Critique means the art of discerning. Perhaps a Canadian or Frenchman is closer to the spirit of the word. In English "criticism" has unfortunately come to mean something entirely negative. Has anyone read "Mother Tongue" by Bill Bryson? A very funny and enlightening book. Languages must be allowed to evolve, and creativity must flourish, and todays rules will most likely become tomorrows jokes. Having said that, however, there is a lot to be said for a fundamental grasp of the basics so we can all read quickly enough and not get too annoyed!

Well see that's why you pair the word 'constructive' with criticism.

Criiticism which is intended to improve a story, or better target an audience, can be very helpful. If you notice that a particular word has been misspelled in every case that it has been used, that's something you should point out. This improves the reading experience for the next reader, and helps the author not to make the same mistake in their next piece of work.

If an author says they don't want your help, what you should tell them is that they're lucky someone is willing to take the time to read their story closely enough to notice these things, and give the kind of feedback that they really need. Readers don't grow on trees.

 

[sethp]

Amen! I am one of the worst writers on lit as far as grammar and spelling go. I do learned on the fly. My first story took about 4 tries before it was even accepted! Countless help, rewrites and reading actual books on writing have helped me improve dramatically. The best thing I ever did though was used proof readers and editors on all of my stories now. The second best thing I ever did was actually listen to the negative comments and criticisms. the third best thing I ever did was start self editing and rewriting my stories and editing the stories I've already posted. From a really really bad first story here on lit but that is rated 'hot" to winning a local writing contest at my library. I owe it all to lit and every one here. I'm well into my first novel as well and the stories here keep bubbling up and pouring out! Thanks to you all!

 

[sr71plt]

Well see that's why you pair the word 'constructive' with criticism.

Criiticism which is intended to improve a story, or better target an audience, can be very helpful. If you notice that a particular word has been misspelled in every case that it has been used, that's something you should point out. This improves the reading experience for the next reader, and helps the author not to make the same mistake in their next piece of work.

If an author says they don't want your help, what you should tell them is that they're lucky someone is willing to take the time to read their story closely enough to notice these things, and give the kind of feedback that they really need. Readers don't grow on trees.

Ah, the thread that won't die.

Misguided crtiticism can be "intended" to be constructive but still be "destructive"--just because you give criticism doesn't mean you can tell your ass from a bucket in writing erotica.

And when you can't tell your ass from a bucket and you tell someone who didn't want your help that they're lucky someone is willing to take the time to read their story you're being a real jackass.

So, it's all relative, isn't it?

(And as always, it's interesting to see from this thread how many are happy to step in to tell folks who didn't ask for help how to write better when they have little or nothing themselves to show as erotica writers.)

 

[alwayswantedto]

<deleted>

 

[Mrtouf]

It's interesting to see from this thread how many are happy to step in to tell folks who didn't ask for help how to write better when they have little or nothing themselves to show as erotica writers.

People don't have to have a certain number of erotic writings to be able to offer insights into better writing in general.

If somone has advice to contribute to the betterment of writing, they are free to do so. Just as people are free to read this thread, or not. They can decide for themselves if this is useful information, or useless.

 

[Guest]

People don't have to have a certain number of erotic writings to be able to offer insights into better writing in general.

If somone has advice to contribute to the betterment of writing, they are free to do so. Just as people are free to read this thread, or not. They can decide for themselves if this is useful information, or useless.

No, you're right people don't have to have any number at all to be decent authors or people with valid viewpoints. But I think that the original post (the open letter) has valid points. Whether anyone here agrees with the delivery method or not, the points are (I feel) at least worth considering.

 

[sr71plt]

People don't have to have a certain number of erotic writings to be able to offer insights into better writing in general.

Spoken like someone without any erotica writing background but a lot of opinions on how someone else should write it. Telling is certainly a lot easier to do than showing.

If somone has advice to contribute to the betterment of writing, they are free to do so. Just as people are free to read this thread, or not. They can decide for themselves if this is useful information, or useless.

That "if someone has advice to contribute to the betterment of writing" is a nice-sounding, sweeping generalization that doesn't really apply to the vast number of self-superior busybodies who wouldn't know the betterment of writing from a pig in a poke. Which is my point--that you (and others) conveniently just sweep away.

 

[Mrtouf]

How exactly does any author control what feedback they receive? If they have very little control over the feedback then they must inevitably wade through some criticism that they didn't want and didn't ask for in order to get to the stuff they did want.

In that case, why write back at all to a critic just to say that they're not going to alter their approach to writing? Is it to discourage the critic from sending further critique? Or is it simply because they only want to read 'yes this is great, thanks' reviews?

Punctuation, spelling and grammar are things which are easily enough fixed. If this is not done, an author's work does not appear in the best light. If an author refuses to fix them, it casts them in a bad light.

Whichever way you look at it, the author is losing readers who very well might have enjoyed the story if it wasn't a pool of frothing protoplasm. If a critic is busybodying them to amend these errors, it's not necessarily because they're self-superior; it can just mean that they want that author to have the same chance as anyone else here, to have their literature enjoyed by the readers.

You're right to say that critics can force their help on people who don't want it, but I think that you're wrong about their motivation for doing so. And if a critic doesn't know how to do what they're asking the author to do, it is absurd for them to offer that advice. But I don't think that was the case for the OP.

I'm sorry that I didn't examine your original point on page 1 closely enough the first time around. I did not intentionally miss it, but like most people, I'm not perfect.

 

[Guest]

(And as always, it's interesting to see from this thread how many are happy to step in to tell folks who didn't ask for help how to write better when they have little or nothing themselves to show as erotica writers.)

As an author waiting to have their second story ever published, I would say that I welcome all feedback and criticism. I left the comments box open and started a thread asking for feedback (which, BTW, was not good).

And not knowing how to write well does not stop me from offering an opinion, I will admit. But I love to read. and I know what I like to read. I may not have input from a technical standpoint, but I have caught a couple of glaring errors in continuity where competent editors could have helped.

I say, however that when you leave the comments box open and allow voting you are inviting criticism.

 

[Epmd607]

How exactly does any author control what feedback they receive? If they have very little control over the feedback then they must inevitably wade through some criticism that they didn't want and didn't ask for in order to get to the stuff they did want.

In that case, why write back at all to a critic just to say that they're not going to alter their approach to writing? Is it to discourage the critic from sending further critique? Or is it simply because they only want to read 'yes this is great, thanks' reviews?

Punctuation, spelling and grammar are things which are easily enough fixed. If this is not done, an author's work does not appear in the best light. If an author refuses to fix them, it casts them in a bad light.

Whichever way you look at it, the author is losing readers who very well might have enjoyed the story if it wasn't a pool of frothing protoplasm. If a critic is busybodying them to amend these errors, it's not necessarily because they're self-superior; it can just mean that they want that author to have the same chance as anyone else here, to have their literature enjoyed by the readers.

You're right to say that critics can force their help on people who don't want it, but I think that you're wrong about their motivation for doing so. And if a critic doesn't know how to do what they're asking the author to do, it is absurd for them to offer that advice. But I don't think that was the case for the OP.

I'm sorry that I didn't examine your original point on page 1 closely enough the first time around. I did not intentionally miss it, but like most people, I'm not perfect.

The OP is making a declaration, saying that if you come to literotica and plan to post a story you must meet xyz criteria. No one's saying take no time on your grammar and spelling. I've said that grammar and spelling is a background character to good storytelling here, and the OP is mistaken in believing that the sole aim of the writer is to perfect their grammar for presentation.

I, like many other writers here, have comments and email open. I'm not interested in criticism once I post a story. I'm interested if anyone liked it. If they didn't, just give it a 1 or 2 and the message is clear. It's free content, no one has a right to email someone and tell them their story is trash. I'm not talking Philosophy of Right either, just basic human decency. There are sections of the message board devoted to stories and criticism, it's odd people assume that just because comments are open on a story means they should give criticism. But the pedants and trolls get off on bad grammar, misspelling of a word, being the one to tell the person their story is shit because they didn't capitalize 'Sunday' or 'English'.

 

[Mrtouf]

Well maybe some stories do attract bad criticism. It's hard to agree with that when I haven't seen it for myself.

Telling someone that they need to pay some attention to these minor details is not exactly trashing their work. It's honest feedback and it is more informative than a 1-star rating, which to me isn't helpful at all - if you didn't like a story then telling the author why is a better thing than giving them no clue as to what they've done wrong.

But yes, it's not necessary to hammer them over the head with every mistake either.

 

[RainierWriterII]

It's simple: if you don't pay attention to the details, you don't care, and if you don't care, why should I? Imagine a singer who while singing a song, hummed every other line because he (or she) didn't bother to remember the words, or slurred the words and sang out of tune because she (or he) couldn't carry a tune or didn't bother learning the tune. Why would I or anyone else (except a parent maybe) bother to giv e the singer my attention?

It's a sign of our times. People think it is elitist to know something, to pay attention to the rules.

If you wish to drive a car, learn the rules of the road.

if you wish to write, learn the rules of grammar......and the only excuse for not spelling correctly is laziness.

Grammar and spelling are aids to a reader, convention that help a reader understand what you are writing. If you don't care for the reader, why should the reader care for you?

I'm sorry, but that statement is complete bull$#it! I had dyslexia as a kid, and spent many an hour with the special kids. I would have been a lost cause if not for the encouragement of a loving family. The fact that I can string together a few coherent sentences today is a miracle. My former tutor, Mrs. Clayton, would be completely dumbfounded by the few little red H’s I have garnered.

I have busted my ass for almost forty years to get where I am today. For a former lost cause like me to post a story on a public site took balls, so you'll have to forgive me if I pat myself on the back. In a nutshell, spare me the laziness crap. You have no concept of the path I have walked, and maybe many others here on Lit.

And, I'm learning the rules of grammar day by day.........

 

[Mandala40]

There are too many stories here for me to bother with one that makes the kinds of mistakes that should keep a student from graduating from high school. Microsoft Word tags spelling errors and gives help with grammar, so there is no excuse for the kinds of mistakes I often find on internet websites.

I am using Mozilla Firefox as my web browser. That also helps with spelling.

 

[sr71plt]

There are too many stories here for me to bother with one that makes the kinds of mistakes that should keep a student from graduating from high school.

Agree with you. But would you be so smug and self-possessed that you felt it was your duty to actively send them a critique they hadn't asked for?

 

[sry2bthryou]

I've drawn a couple of conclusions from following this thread...

1) There are those of us on Lit who cannot handle terrible grammar in any story, good or bad. I say terrible because I understand human error. I just prefer not to read a story that has such bad grammar a 10 year old could have written it better. Coming to an adult site, to view adult-written stories, I expect better.

2) There are those of us on Lit who can not handle negative feedback. Especially those who conclude that readers do not have the right to tell someone their story is trash, even if they've left the comment/voting option open for ALL. If people didn't have a right to send it, the feedback option would not exist at all. Everything you say, write, and do is open to positive and negative feedback, no matter where you do it or how well you do it. If a person cannot handle negative feedback they do have the option to leave no avenue for the negative feedback to travel. Or simply not to post at all.

Being a person who cannot handle ridiculous grammar error in a story, I simply move on to another story. I have yet to comment negatively on a story here (key word 'yet', when I finally get tired of sifting through the bad grammar pool, maybe I will start sending negative feedback...) or come across a story that I would label with the word trash. According to the conservative community, all our erotic postings are "trash". It all has to do with personal preference and difference of opinion. The OP simply posted her personal preference and opinion of how the stories here should be presented. I agreed with the OP.

And let's face it, we all post here so that our stories can be shared with others. I would prefer that most of my audience enjoy my story. I just happen to be in that part of the audience that does not enjoy a good story with disgusting grammar.

 

[Epmd607]

"Now, nobody says you have to care. I mean, I sure can't make you. But if you don't, why are you wasting your time? Nobody's gonna pay you for this. Nobody's going to thank you. It won't make your mom love you, nor that hot coworker you really wanna get with either. (Or both.) It won't make you rich, it won't make you famous. There's nothing to be gained from this "writing" business but self-satisfaction. So, if it doesn't satisfy you to do it, and do it well, why are you bothering? Go play World of Warcraft, or eat Cheetos, or masturbate. Go do something you actually enjoy. There's enough toil and drudgery in your life; for your own sake, don't add to it voluntarily."

The exercise of writing is self-satisfactory enough for most, people keep journals, pen secret poems. If you write your fantasy, you're experiencing your fantasy. Obviously, you understand your own fantasy and the text in which you express it. So is the ends of having a fantasy only in successfully sharing that fantasy? Why bother having fantasies, you keep most of them to yourself... The text is only a tool to present the fantasy -- a way to order the narrative that might be disjointed in the mind. Writing can easily be an act of pleasure for pleasure's sake.

When I was younger I'd write out my fantasy, and when I completed the narrative I'd erase the text. The process of writing had nothing to do with communicating anything to anyone. The sole satisfaction was in arranging my thoughts into a pleasurable narrative.

The only thing that's different now is I don't erase the text; I submit it to this site. Sometimes it's a complete story, meaning the fantasy lasted long enough. Often the fantasy is used up before the story is of any real quality. I submit both, finished or not, as long as I think someone will appreciate it. I leave feedback open for the one email thanking me for sharing, and I've received that thanks for every submission, whether it was a complete and proficient telling of a story or just sloppy and half-told.

Just because you don't appreciate a free story and want to obsess over grammar doesn't give you the right to make declarations and demands on other people's writing. For every story you think is absolute crap there's likely at least one person who appreciated it. That same story the OP thought was rubbish was likely enjoyed by someone else, and if so, her declarations are negated.

When it comes down to it, if you're writing open letters about how a writer should write and how a reader should read on a story sharing site, you most likely have an English Major fashion sense. If you make other people's ill grammar your problem that's really not those people's fault, it's yours because you're a closet pedant.

 

[Epmd607]

"My point was that, in actuality, you can't be a storyteller without worrying over the details. Either you're a storyteller and you sweat the small stuff; or you don't, and you're not."

The small stuff is real small, pin-head small for some people. Being widely read and widely popular wasn't something William Burroughs aimed for. So why does it have to be the objective of someone who writes sex stories on a story sharing site?

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

One's tolerance for bad structure and punctuation is directly correlated to one's own prowess and literacy.

Once you learn the "code" of how we approximate in prose the many patterns and levels of dynamic, intonation and phrasing that we all intrinsically understand in speech, you read on a different level. Furthermore, you can't turn it off.

Written language automatically becomes thought language once you read it. If you are used to certain baseline cues and nuances and then subsequently find those lacking, it does not have the proper "mental mouth feel."

If you as an individual are not used to thinking of language that way, and are unacquainted with that level of subtle orchestration, then you do not have the same expectations.

In a nutshell: people who have bad grammar and punctuation themselves can read badly written stories and enjoy them. Everyone else can't bridge the gap.

 

[sr71plt]

One's tolerance for bad structure and punctuation is directly correlated to one's own prowess and literacy.

That sounds nice, but I haven't seen it hold a lot of water. A good many who have no tolerance for what they consider is bad structure and punctuation (and who get pissy about it--and want to impose their thoughts on others) don't know what they hell they're talking about in commerical publishing terms.

That's sort of a central theme running through this "never-die" thread.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Well notice that I didn't say "all people who pray to Strunk and White know what they're talking about."

Or, alternatively, "all people who think they can spell and use a comma are instinctively inclined toward humility and tolerance."

 

[sr71plt]

Well notice that I didn't say "all people who pray to Strunk and White know what they're talking about."

Or, alternatively, "all people who think they can spell and use a comma are instinctively inclined toward humility and tolerance."

Nor did you say that all people who get stinky about grammar and punctuation (or how to write erotica) know what the hell they are talking about, either.

Die, thread, DIE!

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Oh shit. Did I resurrect Man O' War and start punching him? I hate it when that happens. Late to the party again, and not even fashionably.

 

[Mandala40]

Agree with you. But would you be so smug and self-possessed that you felt it was your duty to actively send them a critique they hadn't asked for?

Anyone who posts stories, threads, or comments here elicits constructive criticism.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

True: everyone who posts work in a public forum is aware they are making themselves open to potential criticism.

Accepting and being aware of the possibility of something occurring as a result of an action undertaken is not the same thing as elicting it.

 

[sr71plt]

Anyone who posts stories, threads, or comments here elicits constructive criticism.

Sorry, that's pretty naive. Most people open their voting and comments to receive pats on the back. So, those who know how to read the system will give pats on the back to those they think deserve it--and just move quietly away from the rest. Many of those who can't do this--who feel compelled to tell others how bad their stories are without being directly asked--are really sort of messed up and suffering from a variety of self-centered complexes.

Sorry, but that's reality. The rest of it is just being too literal in deciphering what's wanted/polite/not "all about me."


Out, out, damned thread!