Any Christians out there?

[intothewoods]

I take it you haven't seen Australia.

What was the singing, dancing Nicole Kidman as a prostitute movie? Some of the love lines I get, but the movie was awful!

I haven't seen it. I blame Hugh Jackman. Isn't he in that one? Anyway, Moulin Rouge and I liked it. Yes it was kind of terrible, but there were things I just loved about it. And I absolutely loved Strictly Ballroom. It's just so sweet.

 

[intothewoods]

p.s. this is a thread about Christians, right?

 

[JMohegan]

The first time I heard the idea that the "Chosen people" theory might inspire antisemitism was this past year watching a documentary about American Jews. Growing up in a reform, sort of hippie-ish, Jewish synagogue, we did not spend much time thinking or talking about being chosen. All I remember learning is that it meant a special responsibility to do things like tikkun olam, or repairing the world. Not to say, nyah nyah I'm chosen! to someone on the playground - that sounds like another planet to me.

It sounds as though you are saying that the essence of Jewish culture is to maintain some sort of separate and elite status. I don't see the drive to resist assimilation at all connected to being chosen. That drive comes from the holocaust. Prior to WW II, American Jews did not consider a Christmas tree to be a threat to the culture - what threat? You've got a gazillion relatives back in Europe to keep the traditions alive. After WWII (the holocaust, pogroms, etc), the lower east side of NYC became the place with the highest population of Jews. The impact of that is just so profound.

Do aspects of Jewish religious practice conflict with western culture in a way that has kept Jews separate (more commonly in the past)?Absofreakinglutely. I would say that is part cultural differences and part happenstance and persecution (for example, Jews became money lenders because there were laws prohibiting them taking other jobs).

Growing up, did I feel somewhat like an outsider because I was different, or different because I was an outsider? I think the former. I do feel the weight of the responsibility of preserving a culture, but the essence of that culture is not to exclude people. Responsibility alone would not inspire me to pass this culture on.

If my best friend had been saying "nyah nyah" to me, he would not have been my friend. Everything he ever told me about the difference between Jews and Others was stated in a matter of fact tone. Same holds true for most of the conversations I've had with Jews.

As an aside, most Christian kids telling me I was going to hell weren't nyah nyahing about it, either. There were genuinely concerned.

From where I'm sitting, calmly being told that Jews have a special responsibility to repair the world, and that Others do not, is a deliberate attempt to distance Jews from Others. Not in a nasty way, but in a way that clearly sends the message that any distancing between Jews and goyim is far from one-sided.

Are there Chinese Americans who are pissed at the faux "Chinese" restaurants in America, or Asians who think Tiger Woods should never have been born, or Irish Catholics who are offended by Americans getting drunk on green beer in March? Surely so. I understand that cultural affinity and continuity is important for many people, and I don't find that objectionable at all.

 

[intothewoods]

If my best friend had been saying "nyah nyah" to me, he would not have been my friend. Everything he ever told me about the difference between Jews and Others was stated in a matter of fact tone. Same holds true for most of the conversations I've had with Jews.

As an aside, most Christian kids telling me I was going to hell weren't nyah nyahing about it, either. There were genuinely concerned.

I've not been so lucky with the people who tell me I'm going to hell.

From where I'm sitting, calmly being told that Jews have a special responsibility to repair the world, and that Others do not, is a deliberate attempt to distance Jews from Others. Not in a nasty way, but in a way that clearly sends the message that any distancing between Jews and goyim is far from one-sided.

Are there Chinese Americans who are pissed at the faux "Chinese" restaurants in America, or Asians who think Tiger Woods should never have been born, or Irish Catholics who are offended by Americans getting drunk on green beer in March? Surely so. I understand that cultural affinity and continuity is important for many people, and I don't find that objectionable at all.

No one told me Others do not. There are branches of Judaism, namely Jewish renewal and reconstructionism, in which any distancing is not deliberate, but is more of an echo from the past.

 

[JMohegan]

I've not been so lucky with the people who tell me I'm going to hell.



No one told me Others do not. There are branches of Judaism, namely Jewish renewal and reconstructionism, in which any distancing is not deliberate, but is more of an echo from the past.

I've already acknowledged that Jewish perspectives are not monolithic, but will repeat it here. Clearly, they're not.

However, "I won't marry you, no matter how strong your ethics, how great your sense of humor, how significant your personal achievements, how attractive I find you physically, if you're not a Jew" is about as distancing as it gets, from my perspective. It's the ultimate us vs. them. So unless the renewal and reconstructionism branches welcome intermarriage, to me the distancing still seems deliberate. Distancing, and deliberately so, but not in a way I would criticize.

Again, I understand that cultural affinity/continuity is important for many people, and I don't find that objectionable.

My culture is American melting pot. Intermarriage strengthens the gene pool. Pizza and sushi improve the diet. New ideas, blended with old ideas, advance the republic. Those are the cultural perspectives that I hold dear.

 

[intothewoods]

I've already acknowledged that Jewish perspectives are not monolithic, but will repeat it here. Clearly, they're not.

However, "I won't marry you, no matter how strong your ethics, how great your sense of humor, how significant your personal achievements, how attractive I find you physically, if you're not a Jew" is about as distancing as it gets, from my perspective. It's the ultimate us vs. them. So unless the renewal and reconstructionism branches welcome intermarriage, to me the distancing still seems deliberate. Distancing, and deliberately so, but not in a way I would criticize.

Many Jews, leaders and followers, welcome intermarried families. Intermarriage is a fact of Jewish life. The Jewish renewal movement in particular welcomes them, and anyone else who wanders in, frankly. It is not exclusionary in the least, except probably to Republicans. Do recon synagogues, or reform, for that matter, promote intermarraige? No, but their congregants include intermarried families. I think many, many Jews have figured out that the message "if you marry a non-Jew we will consider you dead" has not worked. So the message is typically to have a Jewish home, and look, this will be really complicated with someone who is Christian.

ETA: There is also a Jewish universalist movement - that we all believe in God, regardless of the path. That is also a rejection of the separatist, anti-intermarriage message.

And I take your point that "I won't marry you if you're not a Jew" is us versus them, but I've always seen it as practical. This is the kind of home and life I want - what kind of home and life do you want? Btw, I'm marrying someone who isn't Jewish according to Jewish law and wasn't raised Jewish. Since his father was Jewish, and he is drawn very much to Jewish customs, traditions, and a Jewish home, it works out nicely, but we did have to negotiate where the other side of his cultural heritage fits in, and it was no small thing.

Again, I understand that cultural affinity/continuity is important for many people, and I don't find that objectionable.

My culture is American melting pot. Intermarriage strengthens the gene pool. Pizza and sushi improve the diet. New ideas, blended with old ideas, advance the republic. Those are the cultural perspectives that I hold dear.

I bristle at the melting pot, but embrace the salad bowl.

 

[WriterDom]

It is not exclusionary in the least, except probably to Republicans. .

Well that's only 55 million people or so.

 

[JMohegan]

Many Jews, leaders and followers, welcome intermarried families. Intermarriage is a fact of Jewish life. The Jewish renewal movement in particular welcomes them, and anyone else who wanders in, frankly. It is not exclusionary in the least, except probably to Republicans. Do recon synagogues, or reform, for that matter, promote intermarraige? No, but their congregants include intermarried families. I think many, many Jews have figured out that the message "if you marry a non-Jew we will consider you dead" has not worked. So the message is typically to have a Jewish home, and look, this will be really complicated with someone who is Christian.

ETA: There is also a Jewish universalist movement - that we all believe in God, regardless of the path. That is also a rejection of the separatist, anti-intermarriage message.

And I take your point that "I won't marry you if you're not a Jew" is us versus them, but I've always seen it as practical. This is the kind of home and life I want - what kind of home and life do you want? Btw, I'm marrying someone who isn't Jewish according to Jewish law and wasn't raised Jewish. Since his father was Jewish, and he is drawn very much to Jewish customs, traditions, and a Jewish home, it works out nicely, but we did have to negotiate where the other side of his cultural heritage fits in, and it was no small thing.

Haha @ Republicans.

I didn't know about the renewal and universalist movements. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Your marriage perspective seems practical to me! This is why I said it's distancing, but not in a way I would criticize.

I bristle at the melting pot, but embrace the salad bowl.

This took me a second, but ha ha - fair enough! I've met guys whose parents would be distraught if they failed to marry Italian, or Greek, or Chinese. Some cultures seem to resist intermarriage here more than others.

As European societies become more diverse, I wonder how this all plays out across the pond. What does it mean to be French or Italian anymore? If those societies become melting pots, or even salad bowls, then what will those words even mean?

 

[00Syd]

My apologies; I misunderstood.

Why would a non-Jewish person buy Hanuka decorations?

Maybe this is just a NYC thing? Or maybe only my neighborhood? But just about every store or school or restaurant run by goyim buy Hanuka decorations to hang up alongside their Christmas decorations in the window because that's the PC thing to do. Jewish run stores and whathaveyou rarely have any Hanuka decorations, maybe one of those electric Menorahs but that's it. A place called Moishe's doesn't really have to announce that their celebrating Hanuka, you know?

 

[00Syd]

And maybe it's just because I'm so unconnected to the religious part of being a Jew, but I've never gotten a sense that we exclude other people and try to keep seperate. Maybe its just my family. I don't know.

 

[intothewoods]

Well that's only 55 million people or so.

I kid the Republicans because I love them! You know what they say, love the sinner...But seriously, Jewish renewal is pretty lefty.

Haha @ Republicans.

I didn't know about the renewal and universalist movements. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Your marriage perspective seems practical to me! This is why I said it's distancing, but not in a way I would criticize.

This took me a second, but ha ha - fair enough! I've met guys whose parents would be distraught if they failed to marry Italian, or Greek, or Chinese. Some cultures seem to resist intermarriage here more than others.

You're welcome. I know less about the universalist perspective, but it's out there. It's all a balancing act - and the "inner" conflict applies to many ethnic minorities in this country.

As European societies become more diverse, I wonder how this all plays out across the pond. What does it mean to be French or Italian anymore? If those societies become melting pots, or even salad bowls, then what will those words even mean?

I'm not holding my breath on France or Italy becoming a salad bowl, let alone melting pot, anytime soon. How these European countries deal with growing immigrant populations is very interesting though.

 

[midwestyankee]

I
I'm not holding my breath on France or Italy becoming a salad bowl, let alone melting pot, anytime soon. How these European countries deal with growing immigrant populations is very interesting though.

I'm primarily familiar with the problems that the French have been having of late with their very large Muslim population. It's just not pretty. Sarkozy makes GWB look a bit like a tolerant old-style hippie with respect to his attitude toward inclusion.

 

[satindesire]

Okay. I just want you to consider this. This is not intended as an insult, but I'm not going to tell you anything but my impressions I've gotten so far.

You're passionate, but you're lacking wisdom or humility regarding your faith.

I HAVE lost all my faith in religion, but not humanity. Humans are just what they are and part of that is the desire to belong and be right.

I had to abandon religion in order to fulfil that "be right" part of the thing. I love it for its wisdom and its perspective and its richness of history and human nature. But I am not a person of faith.

They really are a part of your religion. The Spanish Inquisition was inspired by Christians. The witch burning was inspired by your religion. There are many things that although they are comforting to the believer, they are exclusive and condemn nonbelievers.

Do you believe you're going to heaven and someone like me is going to hell?

It's things like that...choices and certainties like that, that make Christians unwelcome, because the behavior of a nonChristian is condemned, eternally. No ifs, ands or amens.

It's an EXCLUSIVE religion. You believe or you don't. If you don't believe, you're subject to all sorts of judgments and scorn. You don't even see it in your own language, how you use your words. The offense you're handing out because you just accept that attitude as normal.

So when you defend something that you feel you must cling to or else you feel lost and deprived, I've already been through that. I couldn't be a part of something that condemns some of the greatest people in history to Hell.

So although I might admire your passion and I would hope that you held onto that, the blindness toward how Christians treat those who have rejected their faith is historically pretty nasty.

So believe what you gotta to get through the day, but I won't respect it if you're doing it just for your peace of mind, because it makes you feel better.

There are ways to see the world as it is, it's hard, it's tough and it's occasionally really nasty and ugly. But there's also real beauty and joy and life in those who don't care if they're going to Christian Hell or not.

I've had my own crises of faith and I'll never go back to believing something because it made me feel superior and comfortable and that everything was okay. In fact I've chosen to stay away from all comfortable fantasy and see life as it is, whatever it is, which is what life will decide, and not me.

So don't think that I don't sympathize, because I do. And don't think that I want to tear your faith apart, I don't.

But I would at least like you to try to see what it's like on the other side of that fence you're guarding so fiercely, if you've never stepped over it to see what's there. Or what the view is like from that side.

What I don't understand is where you get the idea that I'm condemning people to hell that don't agree with my religion. I've never even said anything like this....EVER!!

The fact is, I DON'T know what's on the other side. NO ONE KNOWS. The bible gives me some ideas of what might happen, but that was written by people. People lie, they are fallible and they make mistakes. Hell the modern bible of today was put together by Constantine, to please as many people that had converted to Christianity as he could! Only God knows what the bible would have looked like two thousand years ago. Probably not what it looks like today, that much is for sure. I know the bible is a bunch of stories meant to guide us into the right path. I know that I shouldn't hold too much stock and believe EVERY single word between it's bindings. I wish you could see that I'm not a hateful brimstone bible thumper. Because I'm not.

The only thing I'll ever know is that I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, he died on the cross for our sins so that EVERY PERSON has the ability to go to heaven. That's all I believe for sure. The rest is something I'll find out when I die.

Past that, I don't know anything. I don't know if there is really a hell, I don't know if my religion is even the right one! No one knows these things. I don't condemn anyone for not believing what I believe and I've never, EVER in any of my posts told anyone that they're going to be damned for not believing what I believe. I respect other people's religions very much, I think Jesus would have wanted me to do that. I don't judge a person as "Bad" if they're not a Christian. If I did, would I have friends on this website? What would be the point of me walking out the door in the morning?!

What I think you think is that I am exactly like the negatively portrayed, foaming mouth, hellfire and brimstone "Christian" who hates Jews, gays, etc. I'm not. I didn't burn a witch at the stake, I never tortured anyone. I know these things happen. I don't agree with them. I am SO FAR FROM BLIND about the past evils that have been inflicted by people claiming my religion have done. I have spoken about them time and time again in my posts. How is that blind?!

I hate the fact that people claiming MY religion did those horrible, evil things to those poor innocent people. But what do you want me to do about it? I'm just one little girl whose living my life as peacefully and quietly as I can. I can't go back in time and resolve all the past hates and abuses that the people that claim MY religion have done. People constantly remind me of all the things that Christians have done and do now, as if I don't know. I know! I see it all the time. When I bring up the fact that I'm a Christian, someone will ALWAYS say "Well, what about the Inquisition? What about the Crusades? What about the abortion clinic bombing?!" What exactly is the point of constantly reminding me?! It's in my head. It's in my heart. I UNDERSTAND. I SEE. I am constantly pseudo-blamed for the things that I have never agreed with or done, for some strange reason.

All I can do is live a good life to show BY EXAMPLE that not all Christians are gay-bashing hateful bastards. The only thing I will ever do of worth is raise a good family, make sure my children are kind, productive members of society with manners, decency and fantastic morals. That's my contribution. Narrow, small, limited, just like me. I can't do a damn thing about what evils have been done in the name of my religion. What I can do is make sure no one in MY family ever thinks that that's okay. I also know, because people constantly remind me, that you don't have to be a Christian to be a good person, or to raise good kids. It's my choice. I don't expect anyone to think or do the things that I do or think. I'm not nearly that arrogant to think I'm right about something as important and impossible to understand as faith, and that everyone should agree with me. Christianity is right for ME. ME...and if anyone else wants to believe anything else, I'm okay with that! I don't know what'll happen and neither does anyone else. So believe what you like, it's fine! I can't judge anyone with a different perspective because I DON'T KNOW!

I'm a nice person. I don't damn a person to hell for not being a Christian. No one can do that. I'm just a human being, flawed and yes, PROUD of the fact that I am a Christian. I think I have a right to be proud of my faith. I love God, I have a close passionate relationship with him. But I'm just human. Tiny, insignificant little wormy thing that will never aspire to understand the mystery of faith, grace or hell.

Please, understand and believe me. I don't know what I did to give you the impression that I'm some kind of kook that walks around hating people or judging people, but I'm not like that.

 

[Recidiva]

What I don't understand is where you get the idea that I'm condemning people to hell that don't agree with my religion. I've never even said anything like this....EVER!!

The fact is, I DON'T know what's on the other side. NO ONE KNOWS. The bible gives me some ideas of what might happen, but that was written by people. People lie, they are fallible and they make mistakes. Hell the modern bible of today was put together by Constantine, to please as many people that had converted to Christianity as he could! Only God knows what the bible would have looked like two thousand years ago. Probably not what it looks like today, that much is for sure. I know the bible is a bunch of stories meant to guide us into the right path. I know that I shouldn't hold too much stock and believe EVERY single word between it's bindings. I wish you could see that I'm not a hateful brimstone bible thumper. Because I'm not.

The only thing I'll ever know is that I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, he died on the cross for our sins so that EVERY PERSON has the ability to go to heaven. That's all I believe for sure. The rest is something I'll find out when I die.

Past that, I don't know anything. I don't know if there is really a hell, I don't know if my religion is even the right one! No one knows these things. I don't condemn anyone for not believing what I believe and I've never, EVER in any of my posts told anyone that they're going to be damned for not believing what I believe. I respect other people's religions very much, I think Jesus would have wanted me to do that. I don't judge a person as "Bad" if they're not a Christian. If I did, would I have friends on this website? What would be the point of me walking out the door in the morning?!

What I think you think is that I am exactly like the negatively portrayed, foaming mouth, hellfire and brimstone "Christian" who hates Jews, gays, etc. I'm not. I didn't burn a witch at the stake, I never tortured anyone. I know these things happen. I don't agree with them. I hate the fact that people claiming MY religion did those horrible, evil things to those poor innocent people. But what do you want me to do about it? I'm just one little girl whose living my life as peacefully and quietly as I can. I can't go back in time and resolve all the past hates and abuses that the people that claim MY religion have done. People constantly remind me of all the things that Christians have done and do now, as if I don't know. I know! I see it all the time. What exactly is the point of constantly reminding me?! It's in my head. It's in my heart. I UNDERSTAND.

All I can do is live a good life to show BY EXAMPLE that not all Christians are gay-bashing hateful bastards. The only thing I will ever do of worth is raise a good family, make sure my children are kind, productive members of society with manners, decency and fantastic morals. That's my contribution. Narrow, small, limited, just like me. I can't do a damn thing about what evils have been done in the name of my religion. What I can do is make sure no one in MY family ever thinks that that's okay.

I'm a nice person. I don't damn a person to hell for not being a Christian. No one can do that. I'm just a human being, flawed and yes, PROUD of the fact that I am a Christian. I think I have a right to be proud of my faith. I love God, I have a close passionate relationship with him. But I'm just human. Tiny, insignificant little wormy thing that will never aspire to understand the mystery of faith, grace or hell.

Please, understand and believe me. I don't know what I did to give you the impression that I'm some kind of kook that walks around hating people or judging people, but I'm not like that.

Okay. Thanks for answering. When I meant "the other side" I didn't mean death. I meant what it's like to be a non-Christian.

But I appreciate the thoughtful response and of course this is only my thought. I don't have a patent on reality. I just like to ask it questions.

I never accused you of any of the things you think I think about you. I made very specific requests regarding issues you're not addressing and there's not much more I can do about that other than repeat them and I'm not interested in that.

I hope if you reread my post in that light hopefully some of the assumption can be taken off the subject. I STILL don't have a clear opinion about you other than that my words aren't getting through and anything I say seems to result in you being in some level of offense. So. Peace.

 

[satindesire]

Okay. Thanks for answering. When I meant "the other side" I didn't mean death. I meant what it's like to be a non-Christian.

But I appreciate the thoughtful response and of course this is only my thought. I don't have a patent on reality. I just like to ask it questions.

I never accused you of any of the things you think I think about you. I made very specific requests regarding issues you're not addressing and there's not much more I can do about that other than repeat them and I'm not interested in that.

I hope if you reread my post in that light hopefully some of the assumption can be taken off the subject. I STILL don't have a clear opinion about you other than that my words aren't getting through and anything I say seems to result in you being in some level of offense. So. Peace.

Oh my god, please stop. I told you back a long time ago that I'm not offended or angry. You're taking me all wrong. I'm talking to you the same way you are talking to me and you keep reading the wrong tone in my posts. I'm not upset. I'm not offended. I am fine with you, I have no problem discussing these things with you. Okay?

P.S. You said you had these "impressions" of me, which I was trying to clear up. I know they weren't 'accusations'. I was merely attempting to show you that what you thought I acted like was wrong, and you had the wrong impression. Capiche?

 

[Netzach]

And maybe it's just because I'm so unconnected to the religious part of being a Jew, but I've never gotten a sense that we exclude other people and try to keep seperate. Maybe its just my family. I don't know.

H who's father was Jewish and mother wasn't asked a Rabbi sadly once why he wasn't considered a Jew.

The Rabbi said "Harvey, anyone crazy enough to want to be a Jew can be a Jew."

The Chosen People thing struck me as arrogant initially, but my own personal interpretation is that I think of it more as us being selected to be one of the world's canaries in coalmines, by no means the only one. The moments in which we're kicking everyone's azz all over the mid-east in the Biblical world are usually right before a massive schooling in humility by Hashem and an unacceptable act of arrogance. I think we need to pay better attention.

I don't think we've felt very nyah nyah about it since the Hittites.

I veer between that thought and thinking it's blasphemous between trying to wring meaning out of persecution and genocide at all.

 

[Netzach]

Because they are VERY political colors. Maybe its just me and nobody else sees in this way, but in my mind it sort of sides all of Judaism with a political cause that not every Jewish person might agree with.

I'm with you and ITW. Also most people have no freaking idea what Pesach is and it's the foundation of Easter, it's more an offense to my sensibilities about being informed!

 

[Netzach]

People are saying two things. The point you're making here (with which I have repeatedly agreed) and the point that people with Christian ancestors are Christian, no matter how they were raised or what they believe.

Click me. That's my objection.

Do you think for a moment, that if faced with a mess of guys in Klan hoods they're going to be more interested in my agnosticism than my Jewishness?

Did "I'm a secular humanist" save anyone when the feet were to the fire?

This is the difference I'm talking about. It's an unpleasant reality, and one which I'm sure everyone would rather not participate in, but when societies are stressed you can't escape history and unpleasant realities. What would happen to me and what would happen to you a mere 30 years ago house hunting are different stories. Not because I'm Jewish and you're nothing. Not because I'm Jewish and you're neutral. Not because I'm Jewish and you're agnostic. (I'm agnostic when you get down to it, on certain good days or bad ones maybe there's a God maybe not.)

And it's because whatever you believe you will be percieved as Christian enough when heat is applied, and I will be perceived as not, unless I want to engage in some psychotic passing game. What you do with that is your choice and it matters. It matters a whole hell of a lot, as people of both decency and privilege have illustrated over and over and over at personal cost through history - but it's the base fact.

It's painful to have other people label you, but unfortunately it would be incredibly naive of non-Christians not to have a sense of opposition, and I say this in the sense of dichotomy not throwing things. And dangerous.

It doesn't mean I can't be friends with people, understand them, or even feel that I'm somehow in any way better than anyone or worse or anything - but there's a difference.

But to lose track of difference and dichotomy at the same time that one pursues hybridity as an ideal doesn't seem feasible.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Do you think for a moment, that if faced with a mess of guys in Klan hoods they're going to be more interested in my agnosticism than my Jewishness?

Did "I'm a secular humanist" save anyone when the feet were to the fire?

I bet the Jews invented secular humanism. I don't know for sure, but it certainly has their fingerprints all over it.

 

[Netzach]

Trivia aside, doesn't the point about rich people stand?

Ostentatious is the word I'd use to describe the Vatican. Opulent, and obscenely so.

Opulent and obscene are not the words I'd apply to the Sistine Ceiling.

Jesuits - another example. They Church may have taken away but it giveth also. Not so cool if you're a native of Trinidad, but without 'em I think we'd still be at the center of perfect spheres.

The Church/Science relationship is way oversimplified, I think, it was more of a delicate balance, like lions and a wildebeest herd. Everything was copacetic and encouraged till there were suddenly too many wildebeest having too much fun. Lather rinse repeat. Without the cash and sponsorship our intellectual lives would have sucked.

 

[Netzach]

I bet the Jews invented secular humanism. I don't know for sure, but it certainly has their fingerprints all over it.

Prolly. We tend not to kill members of the party who are having a "maybe there's no God" day.

 

[intothewoods]

Maybe this is just a NYC thing? Or maybe only my neighborhood? But just about every store or school or restaurant run by goyim buy Hanuka decorations to hang up alongside their Christmas decorations in the window because that's the PC thing to do. Jewish run stores and whathaveyou rarely have any Hanuka decorations, maybe one of those electric Menorahs but that's it. A place called Moishe's doesn't really have to announce that their celebrating Hanuka, you know?

A place called Moishe's. Ha! Thing about NYC Jews is that there are so damn many of them, many don't give a rat's ass about any of it. They can't imagine there are places you find a good bagel.

I'm primarily familiar with the problems that the French have been having of late with their very large Muslim population. It's just not pretty. Sarkozy makes GWB look a bit like a tolerant old-style hippie with respect to his attitude toward inclusion.

Yes, though I'm sensitive to objections to religiously-based acts of violence against women.

H who's father was Jewish and mother wasn't asked a Rabbi sadly once why he wasn't considered a Jew.

The Rabbi said "Harvey, anyone crazy enough to want to be a Jew can be a Jew."

That's basically what my mom always said.

Do you think for a moment, that if faced with a mess of guys in Klan hoods they're going to be more interested in my agnosticism than my Jewishness?

Did "I'm a secular humanist" save anyone when the feet were to the fire? <snip>

That fact, and the reaction to conversion that's more or less, seriously, you don't really want to sign up here, really informs how I see being Jewish so much more than a drive to be separate.

Maybe I'm just stomping my feet and saying, well, you guys started it!, and JM is not the first person to have made this criti-I mean, observation , but to me it seems that any drive to be separate was born out of self-preservation, whether that be in response to unfriendly governments or food poisoning.

 

[00Syd]

A place called Moishe's. Ha! Thing about NYC Jews is that there are so damn many of them, many don't give a rat's ass about any of it. They can't imagine there are places you find a good bagel.

I worked at Moishe's for a while (its a bakery - GREAT humantachen), but quit because Moishe is a miserly old man and paid me near to nothing, when he paid me.

Moishe is such a character. If you go in there while he's behind the counter more often then not he'll rip off a piece of Challah and say "Have a nosh." and tell you a joke and give your kid a cookie. He also tried to teach me a little Yiddish which was nice. He was thrilled that I was Jewish.

Besides being incredibly miserly, Moishe is pretty racist. The other girl working with me was Chinese and my first day there he told me to watch her because she steals. Later he asked me if I saw her steal anything and I said no and he told me that I only didn't catch her because she's sneaky.

Oy vey.

And I give a rats ass! I love NYC and all the good Jewish food around. If your ever in NYC, remind me to tel you about Russ and Daughters on Houston. Lox you wouldn't believe.

And being in Boston for this long really is a huge bummer. You can't find a good bagel up here! They don't exist! You ask for a bagel and they give you a bread disk.

 

[JMohegan]

Do you think for a moment, that if faced with a mess of guys in Klan hoods they're going to be more interested in my agnosticism than my Jewishness?

Did "I'm a secular humanist" save anyone when the feet were to the fire?

This is the difference I'm talking about. It's an unpleasant reality, and one which I'm sure everyone would rather not participate in, but when societies are stressed you can't escape history and unpleasant realities. What would happen to me and what would happen to you a mere 30 years ago house hunting are different stories. Not because I'm Jewish and you're nothing. Not because I'm Jewish and you're neutral. Not because I'm Jewish and you're agnostic. (I'm agnostic when you get down to it, on certain good days or bad ones maybe there's a God maybe not.)

And it's because whatever you believe you will be percieved as Christian enough when heat is applied, and I will be perceived as not, unless I want to engage in some psychotic passing game. What you do with that is your choice and it matters. It matters a whole hell of a lot, as people of both decency and privilege have illustrated over and over and over at personal cost through history - but it's the base fact.

It's painful to have other people label you, but unfortunately it would be incredibly naive of non-Christians not to have a sense of opposition, and I say this in the sense of dichotomy not throwing things. And dangerous.

It doesn't mean I can't be friends with people, understand them, or even feel that I'm somehow in any way better than anyone or worse or anything - but there's a difference.

But to lose track of difference and dichotomy at the same time that one pursues hybridity as an ideal doesn't seem feasible.

I know what the Klan thinks about me; I spoke to a lot of their kindred spirits last year. You're right. I'm fine as long as I don't open my mouth.

I wasn't talking about the Klan's perceptions, I was talking about yours. The fact that they line up is ironic to me, but I do understand why goyim wariness would be the smart way to go.

As for what I am, we can just agree to disagree.

 

[JMohegan]

Opulent and obscene are not the words I'd apply to the Sistine Ceiling.

I'm not so sure Michelangelo was down with the program.