Any Christians out there?

[midwestyankee]

What's in a name? That which we call Christian,
By any other name would still be an amorphous, unrecognizable, gang-ridden population that knows not itself.

Oops, sorry....lost track of my limbic pentateuchalameter there. I'll do better next time. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa.

Priest: "The Mass is ended."

People: "Thanks be to God."

 

[FurryFury]

The chosen word, specifically, is a Jewish thing. But yeah, plenty of people like to tell others they are going to hell.

I know plenty of Christian groups that call themselves chosen though. Some of them also follow some of the Jewish dietary restrictions and day of worship.

 

[FurryFury]

"It" here is the definition of "American."

To me, "American" means Christmas and Ramadan and Passover and whatever the heck Tom Cruise does is okay. Freedom from religious persecution = "American."

Yes, a lot of people think this way now. Some have even gotten the mistaken idea that it means freedom from religion, which IMO would be nice.

However, if you really look at what our forefather's meant, they didn't mean that everyone should be free from religious persecution at all. In fact, it was part of the charters of the earliest settlements that if someone didn't go to church on the prescribed day the would be punished or jailed. They just meant free, for them, from the religious persecution they had previously experienced.

Happily the idea has evolved over time and there is more freedom from religious persecution in our country than most. We still can't really get a separation of church and state which we we are supposed to have had for some time now though.

 

[FurryFury]

Technically, all races, religions, and ethnicities are welcome and meant to be treated equal. But that doesn't mean that validation for all subsets of the country has been the same. I get that.

I am an agnostic, middle class, college-educated, non-southern east coast, straight white male of European descent. Each of those traits has been historically validated (big time) in this country, except one. I get that, too.

The only thing I'm objecting to in this whole discussion is the idea that I should be labeled "Christian."

I agree you shouldn't be labeled at all. Still, I think what people were trying to say is that this country and our society is still, at it's core built on Christian ideals.

 

[FurryFury]

Please forgive what is surely an ignorant question, but why are those colors problematic?

I confess I'm curious too.

 

[MisterSir]

To me, "American" means Christmas and Ramadan and Passover and whatever the heck Tom Cruise does is okay. Freedom from religious persecution = "American."

If that's the case, let me say I'm glad to be British because Scientology can go frak itself - it is not OK, it is a cult that's only been given some form of legitimacy because it's taken over some of Hollywood and that it's even considered a religion is disturbing. I don't know that the stories behind Christianity and Islam are any more true, and I won't, but at least they have good qualities - providing a moral base for millions of people. What, exactly, is the benefit of Scientology to the world?

 

[unregistered]

 

[JMohegan]

Yes, a lot of people think this way now. Some have even gotten the mistaken idea that it means freedom from religion, which IMO would be nice.

However, if you really look at what our forefather's meant, they didn't mean that everyone should be free from religious persecution at all. In fact, it was part of the charters of the earliest settlements that if someone didn't go to church on the prescribed day the would be punished or jailed. They just meant free, for them, from the religious persecution they had previously experienced.

Happily the idea has evolved over time and there is more freedom from religious persecution in our country than most. We still can't really get a separation of church and state which we we are supposed to have had for some time now though.

A lot of our early principles took a while coming into fruition, you're right.

"All men are created equal," for example. (Except, you know, those 3/5 ones.)

 

[JMohegan]

I agree you shouldn't be labeled at all. Still, I think what people were trying to say is that this country and our society is still, at it's core built on Christian ideals.

People are saying two things. The point you're making here (with which I have repeatedly agreed) and the point that people with Christian ancestors are Christian, no matter how they were raised or what they believe.

Click me. That's my objection.

 

[intothewoods]

All of the Hanuka decorations sold in the stores are blue and white.

As an aside, holiday decorations = "aping the goyim," a friend of mine says!

Exactly why I don't like it.

Seriously. Every year.

And its like, yay, its great, they are recognizing Hanuka just like thay recognize Christmas. But on the other hand... Blue and white?

I don't think it's great. Lighting up the Empire State building in blue and white, like a Christmas tree but in Jew colors, reduces Judaism to a celebration of Chanukah, and morphs Chanukah into whatever the goyim want it to be. Because most Christmas celebrants want there to be other important holidays going on at that time because it makes them feel good. But it's not important. And it's not recognizing my culture to light up a building in blue and white. It has nothing to do with me.

Oh, I think Syd objects to the blue and white thing because it's the colors of Israel, but I could be wrong.

 

[JMohegan]

If that's the case, let me say I'm glad to be British because Scientology can go frak itself - it is not OK, it is a cult that's only been given some form of legitimacy because it's taken over some of Hollywood and that it's even considered a religion is disturbing. I don't know that the stories behind Christianity and Islam are any more true, and I won't, but at least they have good qualities - providing a moral base for millions of people. What, exactly, is the benefit of Scientology to the world?

From Wikipedia:

Scientology teaches that spiritual progress requires and enables the attainment of high moral and ethical standards. Scientologist ethics stresses rationality over morals; actions are considered "good" if they promote survival across all eight dynamics or realms of action. According to this view, good actions are constructive rather than destructive; they benefit a greater number of people while harming the fewest.


ETA: Apparently, Scientology *is* considered okay in your country. At least, as much as any of the other non-state religions. http://www.scientology.org.uk/locator/

 

[JMohegan]

Oh, I think Syd objects to the blue and white thing because it's the colors of Israel, but I could be wrong.

I always thought it was because the rule is that the shawl has to have blue in it. Problem being, no one can agree on the shade of blue! That would have been my guess.

Who picked the Chanukah colors in the states? For decorations, I mean?

 

[00Syd]

Please forgive what is surely an ignorant question, but why are those colors problematic?

Because they are VERY political colors. Maybe its just me and nobody else sees in this way, but in my mind it sort of sides all of Judaism with a political cause that not every Jewish person might agree with.

 

[00Syd]

I always thought it was because the rule is that the shawl has to have blue in it. Problem being, no one can agree on the shade of blue! That would have been my guess.

Who picked the Chanukah colors in the states? For decorations, I mean?

I think probably some goyim at Hallmark who were standing around going "what colors do the Jews like?" And then one guy chimes in "well, they all like Israel right?" And then another guy goes "Ah, perfect, blue and white, they'll all love that."

 

[JMohegan]

Because they are VERY political colors. Maybe its just me and nobody else sees in this way, but in my mind it sort of sides all of Judaism with a political cause that not every Jewish person might agree with.

Thanks for explaining, Syd.

I can understand why presumed affiliation with a pro-Israeli perspective would be problematic for someone with different political views. Given the number of Jewish American voters who've told me, flat out: "I'll never vote for him; I don't think he's good for Israel," I can see why you feel as if you're in a frustratingly small minority here.

 

[JMohegan]

I think probably some goyim at Hallmark who were standing around going "what colors do the Jews like?" And then one guy chimes in "well, they all like Israel right?" And then another guy goes "Ah, perfect, blue and white, they'll all love that."

Honestly I don't think most non-Jewish Americans know what the Israeli flag looks like.

 

[00Syd]

Thanks for explaining, Syd.

I can understand why presumed affiliation with a pro-Israeli perspective would be problematic for someone with different political views. Given the number of Jewish American voters who've told me, flat out: "I'll never vote for him; I don't think he's good for Israel," I can see why you feel as if you're in a frustratingly small minority here.

I'm neither pro-Israel or anti-Israel. I think everyone's wrong. I just don't like having my political affiliations assumed.

Honestly I don't think most non-Jewish Americans know what the Israeli flag looks like.

Mmmm maybe not. But I still think that decisions re: Hanuka decorations are made by goyim. I just can't see a Jew sitting at a desk at Hallmark creating some Hanuka decoration without thinking about their mother and feeling guilty.

And I feel like most of the people who buy those decorations are goyim anyway, to put in their stores or schools or whatever to say "Hey, we celebrate this too!"

 

[charmingdimples]

I grew up in a house where religion and sex were not discussed. Ever.

I think the only culture I have available is middle class American suburb.

I had wondered what that was. Thanks for the info.

 

[Recidiva]

That's basically it. A more complete definition appears below.

Do you have a question?



agnostic

n. a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

adj. of, relating to, or being an agnostic or the beliefs of agnostics

Yes, that's more my definition.

I can't be an atheist because I can't disavow all knowledge of God. In my personal definition, EVERYTHING is God and there is no thing that is not God. Nothing is excluded. It's not an authority with a voice. It's all voices. It's all things. No gender, no dogma, nothing other than "What you see is what you've God."

With this definition I'm as inclusive as possible, everyone is a part of God. It makes everything sacred but nothing special.

I have no idea what's going to happen when I die.

I'm leaning toward possible reincarnation because human memory is just too weird. If the cells actually store memory and we haven't determined the mechanics, that would make the most sense to me. It would eliminate the need for 1 to 1 reincarnation and explain bits of memory cropping up that don't belong to the individual but belong to the genome.

 

[Recidiva]

I had wondered what that was. Thanks for the info.

Well, the culture clash in my family was between South and North.

My mother's from Baton Rouge and her family never really got over a Yankee in the family. She was all about appearances, proper behavior and the arts.

My dad was from New Jersey and he couldn't care less what someone's family thought. He was all about camping, self sufficiency and common sense.

So between all the philosophical differences between my parents, religion was really just left out in the cold. It was all about whether or not to go see a concert or go fishing.

My father was a Methodist as a kid, but my mother had lived with Quakers for a while and she had been Presbyterian. (I'm not even sure who was who really...) Just that I took those two words and combined them. When someone asked me what religion I belonged to, I'd say "I'm a Presbydist or a Metheterian" and usually that was weird enough that they moved on to someone else. Neither discussed religion in other than logical terms.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm neither pro-Israel or anti-Israel. I think everyone's wrong. I just don't like having my political affiliations assumed.

Totally understandable.

Okay, so here's an idea. I won't call you pro-Israel if you don't call me Christian. Deal?

Mmmm maybe not. But I still think that decisions re: Hanuka decorations are made by goyim. I just can't see a Jew sitting at a desk at Hallmark creating some Hanuka decoration without thinking about their mother and feeling guilty.

And I feel like most of the people who buy those decorations are goyim anyway, to put in their stores or schools or whatever to say "Hey, we celebrate this too!"

A family in my neighborhood puts out one of those holiday flags on a pole every December. It shows a blue dreidel on a white background.

By Netzach's definition, they're Jews. The adults are also bar/bat mitzvah'd.

You can call them goyim if you want to, but I'm almost positive they'd consider that not only wrong, but an insult to boot.

 

[JMohegan]

Yes, that's more my definition.

I can't be an atheist because I can't disavow all knowledge of God. In my personal definition, EVERYTHING is God and there is no thing that is not God. Nothing is excluded. It's not an authority with a voice. It's all voices. It's all things. No gender, no dogma, nothing other than "What you see is what you've God."

With this definition I'm as inclusive as possible, everyone is a part of God. It makes everything sacred but nothing special.

I have no idea what's going to happen when I die.

I'm leaning toward possible reincarnation because human memory is just too weird. If the cells actually store memory and we haven't determined the mechanics, that would make the most sense to me. It would eliminate the need for 1 to 1 reincarnation and explain bits of memory cropping up that don't belong to the individual but belong to the genome.

A lot of people lump agnostics in with atheists, which would be insulting if it weren't so ignorant and goofy!

The only thing I believe in, other than that which I can touch, calculate, see, or prove, is (and please pardon me if I sound like a really bad Baz Luhrmann movie) love. I do believe in that.

 

[00Syd]

Totally understandable.

Okay, so here's an idea. I won't call you pro-Israel if you don't call me Christian. Deal?

I don't think I ever did, but okay, sure.

A family in my neighborhood puts out one of those holiday flags on a pole every December. It shows a blue dreidel on a white background.

By Netzach's definition, they're Jews. The adults are also bar/bat mitzvah'd.

You can call them goyim if you want to, but I'm almost positive they'd consider that not only wrong, but an insult to boot.

I never said that no Jews put up Hanuka decorations, I said that I think most of the people who buy them every year are goyim.

 

[JMohegan]

I never said that no Jews put up Hanuka decorations, I said that I think most of the people who buy them every year are goyim.

My apologies; I misunderstood.

Why would a non-Jewish person buy Hanuka decorations?

 

[Recidiva]

A lot of people lump agnostics in with atheists, which would be insulting if it weren't so ignorant and goofy!

The only thing I believe in, other than that which I can touch, calculate, see, or prove, is (and please pardon me if I sound like a really bad Baz Luhrmann movie) love. I do believe in that.

I know my brain is limited in capacity to calculate and store and sense. There's no way I could understand the Universe in totality. But I can keep trying to figure out what I can and not be an idiot about the whole thing.

And love is cool. So is Baz Luhrmann.

“A life lived in fear is a life half lived.” - Strictly Ballroom