Any Christians out there?

[Recidiva]

My apologies; I misunderstood.

Why would a non-Jewish person buy Hanuka decorations?

Inclusion. And again a particularly American interest in partaking in and celebrating everything.

If you can have a Cerveza on Cinco De Mayo, you can spin a dreidel.

Even though the people of a certain religion may not appreciate being glommed by a casual celebration, it's entirely what's happened to Christmas. It morphs into "family and friends get together, eat food and likely get drunk." "Oooh, it's a dreidel, I always wanted to know what those markings mean, someone Google it!"

 

[MisterSir]

From Wikipedia:

Scientology teaches that spiritual progress requires and enables the attainment of high moral and ethical standards. Scientologist ethics stresses rationality over morals; actions are considered "good" if they promote survival across all eight dynamics or realms of action. According to this view, good actions are constructive rather than destructive; they benefit a greater number of people while harming the fewest.


ETA: Apparently, Scientology *is* considered okay in your country. At least, as much as any of the other non-state religions. http://www.scientology.org.uk/locator/

Fantastic.

So it's altruism and utilitarianism, all wrapped up in a big ball of crazy designed for making money. Sure, it's permitted over here, but then fucking EVERYTHING is because the authorities are terrified of being accused of discrimination - doesn't make a bit of a difference because it's still a big ball of crazy designed for making money. When the guy who came up with it has also been quoted as saying things like "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion" or "The only way you can control people is to lie to them", I take the entire thing with the world's most gigantic pinch of salt.

Also, it irritates me that post #200 was discussing this non-religion.

 

[JMohegan]

Fantastic.

So it's altruism and utilitarianism, all wrapped up in a big ball of crazy designed for making money. Sure, it's permitted over here, but then fucking EVERYTHING is because the authorities are terrified of being accused of discrimination - doesn't make a bit of a difference because it's still a big ball of crazy designed for making money.

When the guy who came up with it has also been quoted as saying things like "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion" or "The only way you can control people is to lie to them", I take the entire thing with the world's most gigantic pinch of salt.

Don't you think the Christian church was designed for making money, too?

Tithes, and whatnot?

 

[Recidiva]

Fantastic.

So it's altruism and utilitarianism, all wrapped up in a big ball of crazy designed for making money. Sure, it's permitted over here, but then fucking EVERYTHING is because the authorities are terrified of being accused of discrimination - doesn't make a bit of a difference because it's still a big ball of crazy designed for making money.

When the guy who came up with it has also been quoted as saying things like "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion" or "The only way you can control people is to lie to them", I take the entire thing with the world's most gigantic pinch of salt.

I was with the Church for a few years. Some of it's really good stuff.

Some of it is dangerous and cruel, particularly the idea that Dianetics can overcome medical illnesses. Unfortunately they don't acknowledge medical illness anywhere near as much as they should and they're not required to keep statistics of successes.

Add a large knowledge of medicine to your repetoire and keep some of the good bits of Scientology and that's good.

I'm reading "Dianetics" for the first time right now. I'm a tad bitter about how fucking stupid it sounds.

On the whole it had some good ideas, wrapped it in marketing and narcissism, and 50 years down the line STILL cannot edit out clearly WRONG bits of information from the book because LRH couldn't stand editing.

Not bad as cults go though. Thumbs up from me for the year or so I spent in Los Angeles in the Big Blue Building.

Anyway, ask anything you want about Scientology. I'll answer what I can.

It's a religion. There's a faith not to be shaken in many believers.

 

[JMohegan]

Inclusion. And again a particularly American interest in partaking in and celebrating everything.

If you can have a Cerveza on Cinco De Mayo, you can spin a dreidel.

Even though the people of a certain religion may not appreciate being glommed by a casual celebration, it's entirely what's happened to Christmas. It morphs into "family and friends get together, eat food and likely get drunk." "Oooh, it's a dreidel, I always wanted to know what those markings mean, someone Google it!"

I know Christians who believe that Santa and the Easter bunny are abominations that obscure the whole point of the holy days. They consider the idea that celebrating Santa makes you Christian to be deeply offensive to their religious principles.

Commercialism is inherently American. Santa is not inherently Christian any more than Dreidel flags are inherently Jewish.

 

[Recidiva]

I know Christians who believe that Santa and the Easter bunny are abominations that obscure the whole point of the holy days. They consider the idea that celebrating Santa makes you Christian to be deeply offensive to their religious principles.

Commercialism is inherently American. Santa is not inherently Christian any more than Dreidel flags are inherently Jewish.

Well, Santa and Easter Bunny and the Christmas Tree and even the images of Satan are all from pagan cloth. The list goes on and on of hijacked symbols.

Which is why I particularly as more of a pagan than a Christian have no problem with these symbols.

They DO obscure the point of the holy days. That's part of the irony of subverting culture to gain authority. It works against you.

This to me is Christianity's tactics backfiring to some extent and working to some extent.

I actually think of it as a social evolutionary process...something worth celebrating.

It's easy to explain "easter eggs" and the tradition of determining Easter's date according to the moon if you understand Ostara.

It's...ENTIRELY an American holiday.

 

[WriterDom]

Don't you think the Christian church was designed for making money, too?

Tithes, and whatnot?

No, I think you'd be better off opening a 7/11 than starting a church. With the exceptioin being Mega Churches who can rake in a lot of money.

The Catholic Church might be an exception. But I don't want to get in trouble with Desert Rose.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, Santa and Easter Bunny and the Christmas Tree and even the images of Satan are all from pagan cloth. The list goes on and on of hijacked symbols.

Which is why I particularly as more of a pagan than a Christian have no problem with these symbols.

They DO obscure the point of the holy days. That's part of the irony of subverting culture to gain authority. It works against you.

This to me is Christianity's tactics backfiring to some extent and working to some extent.

Yes, that's ironic, but whether or not it's "backfiring" depends on your goals, and what you believe. I don't think most Christian leaders throughout history have actually believed what they're selling.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Ever been to the Vatican?

 

[JMohegan]

No, I think you'd be better off opening a 7/11 than starting a church. With the exceptioin being Mega Churches who can rake in a lot of money.

The Catholic Church might be an exception. But I don't want to get in trouble with Desert Rose.

Those are two hefty "exceptions," WD.

I was actually talking about the Christian church, at its origin. But televangelists and megachurch "pastors" sure do rake in the dough.

 

[Recidiva]

Yes, that's ironic, but whether or not it's "backfiring" depends on your goals, and what you believe. I don't think most Christian leaders throughout history have actually believed what they're selling.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Ever been to the Vatican?

Oooh! Tangential trivia. The "Eye of the Needle" wasn't a literal needle, but a narrow gate in Jerusalem.

You had to unburden your camel, then walk the camel through.

So it is a bit more reasonable than it sounds.

There have also been some fairly kick-ass mystics and smart people, so I'm all about yoinking the baby and tossing the water.

I haven't been to the Vatican. I hear it's nice.

 

[JMohegan]

Oooh! Tangential trivia. The "Eye of the Needle" wasn't a literal needle, but a narrow gate in Jerusalem.

You had to unburden your camel, then walk the camel through.

So it is a bit more reasonable than it sounds.

There have also been some fairly kick-ass mystics and smart people, so I'm all about yoinking the baby and tossing the water.

I haven't been to the Vatican. I hear it's nice.

Trivia aside, doesn't the point about rich people stand?

Ostentatious is the word I'd use to describe the Vatican. Opulent, and obscenely so.

 

[Recidiva]

Trivia aside, doesn't the point about rich people stand?

Ostentatious is the word I'd use to describe the Vatican. Opulent, and obscenely so.

But on the bright side, it does give hope that some day drag queens will be openly accepted.

I'm disgusted by the ostentatiousness.

Same with the Church of Scientology actually. I joined when it was down and out and struggling. It's gotten much more obnoxious as the bank balance climbed.

I am anti-flaunt. Disqualifying me from Catholicism or drag queenery.

So I guess my mom's Quaker influence did something.

 

[JMohegan]

But on the bright side, it does give hope that some day drag queens will be openly accepted.

I'm disgusted by the ostentatiousness.

Same with the Church of Scientology actually. I joined when it was down and out and struggling. It's gotten much more obnoxious as the bank balance climbed.

I am anti-flaunt. Disqualifying me from Catholicism or drag queenery.

So I guess my mom's Quaker influence did something.

HAHAHA @ "drag queens"!

 

[intothewoods]

I know plenty of Christian groups that call themselves chosen though. Some of them also follow some of the Jewish dietary restrictions and day of worship.

Huh, like Jews for Jesus?

I always thought it was because the rule is that the shawl has to have blue in it. Problem being, no one can agree on the shade of blue! That would have been my guess.

Who picked the Chanukah colors in the states? For decorations, I mean?

Yes, blue is significant in Jewish culture. I personally don't associate it with Israel per se.

I think probably some goyim at Hallmark who were standing around going "what colors do the Jews like?" And then one guy chimes in "well, they all like Israel right?" And then another guy goes "Ah, perfect, blue and white, they'll all love that."

Lol. They all like Israel?

We can absolutely thank commercialism for all sorts of "holiday" decorations. But my objection to decorations which are essentially Christmas decorations in blue and white is not exactly the same as a Christian who objects to Santa because they are abominations to holy days. Chanukah is a minor holiday that is primarily for kids. I just don't want my cultural traditions to be lost into the mainstream culture which makes December the most important month of the year.

As to the people who fly a flag with a dreidel on it, I don't doubt they're Jewish. There are plenty of Jews who have trees and call it a Chanukah bush, or just a plain old Christmas tree, because they believe Christmas is as American as Thanksgiving. At my kid's previous school, they did a "spring" candy hunt, and didn't understand why I had some trepidation about allowing my 2 year old to take part. It didn't help that the other Jewish parent said, oh, I make an Easter basket every year. There's nothing religious about an Easter basket. Right, and so not the point.

I don't know why this stuff makes me want to spit fire, but it does. Whereas my Muslim friend invites people who tell her "why are your people always killing?" into her home, talks to them for hours, they fall in love with her and become better people, kumbaya! Seriously, I'm working on my attitude, and maybe I will change the world too.

 

[midwestyankee]

A lot of people lump agnostics in with atheists, which would be insulting if it weren't so ignorant and goofy!

The only thing I believe in, other than that which I can touch, calculate, see, or prove, is (and please pardon me if I sound like a really bad Baz Luhrmann movie) love. I do believe in that.

This is roughly where I stand, as well, though I've had much more intimate experience with various forms of Christianity. Let's just say that in one Methodist young adults group to which I belonged a couple decades ago, I and my fellow former Catholics were the majority—there were more of us in the group than folks who'd been raised in the Methodist tradition. In the few years since I've stopped attending Methodist services (aside from the spousally-required major holidays), I've attended a few services in a Unitarian-Universalist church that were quite pleasant.

Now, back to believing or not believing. I simply do not know.

Like JM, I hold to those things that I can experience with my senses and my mind as well as love. Further, I am willing to accept the experiences of those much wiser than I. This means that I can believe in space travel, cell phones, and heating systems even though I do not truly understand how they work. For me, mystery begins at the border between rationality and imagination.

 

[intothewoods]

A lot of people lump agnostics in with atheists, which would be insulting if it weren't so ignorant and goofy!

The only thing I believe in, other than that which I can touch, calculate, see, or prove, is (and please pardon me if I sound like a really bad Baz Luhrmann movie) love. I do believe in that.

There is no such thing as a bad Baz Lurhmann movie!

 

[FurryFury]

A lot of our early principles took a while coming into fruition, you're right.

"All men are created equal," for example. (Except, you know, those 3/5 ones.)

LOL!

Yep, I know.

 

[WriterDom]

Those are two hefty "exceptions," WD.

I was actually talking about the Christian church, at its origin. But televangelists and megachurch "pastors" sure do rake in the dough.

I don't see much money at it in the origin. And the Catholics were pretty quick about making it a monopoly for 1400 years or so. I imagine if you nailed a cross to a building and called it a church without the Pope's blessing you were probably barbequed that night.

Mega churches don't bother me too much. I figured if you are head of an organization of 25,000 people you probably deserve a nice salary. And they'd probably point to the charitable work they do.

But the televangelists, well, if you could shut them down I wouldn't complain. They get people's last 5 dollars hoping for a miracle. But freedom of speech and all. You can't really protect people from themselves. Like poor people in Georgia addicted to the lottery. Their kids might go hungry while someone else's kids get a free ride through college if they keep a B average.

 

[FurryFury]

This is roughly where I stand, as well, though I've had much more intimate experience with various forms of Christianity. Let's just say that in one Methodist young adults group to which I belonged a couple decades ago, I and my fellow former Catholics were the majority—there were more of us in the group than folks who'd been raised in the Methodist tradition. In the few years since I've stopped attending Methodist services (aside from the spousally-required major holidays), I've attended a few services in a Unitarian-Universalist church that were quite pleasant.

Now, back to believing or not believing. I simply do not know.

Like JM, I hold to those things that I can experience with my senses and my mind as well as love. Further, I am willing to accept the experiences of those much wiser than I. This means that I can believe in space travel, cell phones, and heating systems even though I do not truly understand how they work. For me, mystery begins at the border between rationality and imagination.

I'm with y'all on all this too. I was raised in a very religious way until 5th grade when my parents fell apart and I was left on my own!

The Unitarian Universalist church is a very open and tolerant one. They embrace gay people and alternative life styles.

The Unity church does as well.

When my kids were young I took them to those and an Episcopal church because my ex was taking one of them to a cult church that didn't even say where they met and, after researching it at a religious college I decided they needed to experience loving tolerant churches for a while.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't know why this stuff makes me want to spit fire, but it does.

My (outsider's) observation of Jewish culture is that the essence of the whole thing seems set up to exclude Others, and to define and perpetuate the Chosen People as a distinct and special group.

Part of this seems to be a very understandable reaction to persecution across millennia. But another part of it is the sense that the Chosen People really are chosen, literally, and therefore uniquely special and divinely charged with resisting absorption into a group.

I remember hearing a Jewish guy claim that "intermarriage is continuing Hitler's work." To me, his statement was profoundly ironic (given that racial purity was a stated Hitler goal). To him, it made perfect sense.

If I'm off the mark in any of this, please don't be offended. I'm observing, not criticizing. And I understand that Jewish perspectives are not monolithic.

 

[FurryFury]

I don't see much money at it in the origin. And the Catholics were pretty quick about making it a monopoly for 1400 years or so. I imagine if you nailed a cross to a building and called it a church without the Pope's blessing you were probably barbequed that night.

Mega churches don't bother me too much. I figured if you are head of an organization of 25,000 people you probably deserve a nice salary. And they'd probably point to the charitable work they do.

But the televangelists, well, if you could shut them down I wouldn't complain. They get people's last 5 dollars hoping for a miracle. But freedom of speech and all. You can't really protect people from themselves. Like poor people in Georgia addicted to the lottery. Their kids might go hungry while someone else's kids get a free ride through college if they keep a B average.

This pisses me off too. I saw it first hand with my paternal grandmother who rarely had any money to speak of but oh how she'd send what little she had to those damn TV preachers.

 

[JMohegan]

There is no such thing as a bad Baz Lurhmann movie!

I take it you haven't seen Australia.

What was the singing, dancing Nicole Kidman as a prostitute movie? Some of the love lines I get, but the movie was awful!

 

[FurryFury]

This little (Presbyterian) girl told my daughter that they couldn't be friends and play together if she didn't repeat and convert on the spot. She was other wised damned and not one of the chosen.

All this went on while my son was in "boys bible club" a calling of the girl's mother. I was worried about my son at this point but I always let my kids explore as they will. Thank goodness my son later became an "Apathist." (His term.)

Meanwhile my daughter was cowed that day but now is an atheist with Buddhist leanings.

I insist my kids study world religions and beliefs, mainly as a way to help guard against religion fanaticism.

 

[WriterDom]

This pisses me off too. I saw it first hand with my paternal grandmother who rarely had any money to speak of but oh how she'd send what little she had to those damn TV preachers.

Yeah and they have all these bullshit stories like Emma Johnston who was about to lose her house sent in 20 dollars seed money and the very next week a long lost relative died leaving her 4000 dollars. Praise the Lord!

 

[intothewoods]

My (outsider's) observation of Jewish culture is that the essence of the whole thing seems set up to exclude Others, and to define and perpetuate the Chosen People as a distinct and special group.

Part of this seems to be a very understandable reaction to persecution across millennia. But another part of it is the sense that the Chosen People really are chosen, literally, and therefore uniquely special and divinely charged with resisting absorption into a group.

I remember hearing a Jewish guy claim that "intermarriage is continuing Hitler's work." To me, his statement was profoundly ironic (given that racial purity was a stated Hitler goal). To him, it made perfect sense.

If I'm off the mark in any of this, please don't be offended. I'm observing, not criticizing. And I understand that Jewish perspectives are not monolithic.

The first time I heard the idea that the "Chosen people" theory might inspire antisemitism was this past year watching a documentary about American Jews. Growing up in a reform, sort of hippie-ish, Jewish synagogue, we did not spend much time thinking or talking about being chosen. All I remember learning is that it meant a special responsibility to do things like tikkun olam, or repairing the world. Not to say, nyah nyah I'm chosen! to someone on the playground - that sounds like another planet to me.

It sounds as though you are saying that the essence of Jewish culture is to maintain some sort of separate and elite status. I don't see the drive to resist assimilation at all connected to being chosen. That drive comes from the holocaust. Prior to WW II, American Jews did not consider a Christmas tree to be a threat to the culture - what threat? You've got a gazillion relatives back in Europe to keep the traditions alive. After WWII (the holocaust, pogroms, etc), the lower east side of NYC became the place with the highest population of Jews. The impact of that is just so profound.

Do aspects of Jewish religious practice conflict with western culture in a way that has kept Jews separate (more commonly in the past)?Absofreakinglutely. I would say that is part cultural differences and part happenstance and persecution (for example, Jews became money lenders because there were laws prohibiting them taking other jobs).

Growing up, did I feel somewhat like an outsider because I was different, or different because I was an outsider? I think the former. I do feel the weight of the responsibility of preserving a culture, but the essence of that culture is not to exclude people. Responsibility alone would not inspire me to pass this culture on.