Any Christians out there?

[graceanne]

I find that the willingness to hate fades quickly behind my curiosity of wanting to understand "why."

But I am balanced by my husband who would prefer to shoot first and probably never ask any questions at all.

And sometimes, he's absolutely right.

My curiosity occasionally makes me absolutely heedless of consequences. But I have much more respect for not giving a damn now that I've seen how STUPID that can be.

I can hate those who harm children, who rob from others, who cause pain and destruction just 'cause. I tend to try to look for reasons WHY...

But then I end up in a regression back through history where nobody's really responsible for any of their actions because they're a link in a chain.

And at a certain point...it's got to stop.

There was a phase in my life when I wanted to commune with everything...I'd let mosquitos bite me because...they're just mothers, doing what mothers do...it's not their fault...

Then one day I thought "who wants more mosquitos?" and started mashing them again.

My desire to understand doesn't always result in harmony. It results in realizing something else out there doesn't give a damn what I think and it might be a good idea if I adopted that action to my own use.

Personally, I think it's emotionally healthy to forgive. I was just making a biblical point. I do not, however, think forgiving means wiping the slate clean or allowing that person in your life. Forgiveness is not being angry with them anymore, and (if necessary) protecting yourself again. We, as Christians, are called to be forgiving, not idiots.

And I don't step on ants, or kill spiders. I do, however, kill anything that starts it first (aka by biting me). Its a law of life that you shouldn't pick on something bigger and stronger than you. Skinny nerd picks a fight with big jock - get squished. Feel sorry for him? No, he's an idiot.

 

[Recidiva]

Personally, I think it's emotionally healthy to forgive. I was just making a biblical point. I do not, however, think forgiving means wiping the slate clean or allowing that person in your life. Forgiveness is not being angry with them anymore, and (if necessary) protecting yourself again. We, as Christians, are called to be forgiving, not idiots.

And I don't step on ants, or kill spiders. I do, however, kill anything that starts it first (aka by biting me). Its a law of life that you shouldn't pick on something bigger and stronger than you. Skinny nerd picks a fight with big jock - get squished. Feel sorry for him? No, he's an idiot.

Yes. Forgiveness to me must have meaning. I have to have a reason. It isn't compulsive and it isn't given just because it's asked. It's given when I have it to give.

There's a lifting of a burden and release of...for lack of a better word I'll use the word debt... with forgiveness. When I forgive things I can't resolve (I rarely insist on "closure" - I prefer forgiveness) it's a slate wipe in the sense that I'm cutting my own losses. I don't have to keep track of what someone else "owes me" and that becomes a gift I give myself. I do know not to run up more debt.

If I'm feeling particularly emotionally burdened I take a deep breath, try to forget what I consider someone "owes" me, and behave as if I'm the only one on the face of the Earth, free of all attachments. "Resetting" can help me see in a new timeframe. Honestly I'm usually surprised that people are kinder than I expected. I can judge harshly, myself and others. I do find that it's my attitude about trying to keep things "even" and "fair" that runs me into constant emotional calculation and I get exhausted and resentful.

So yeah, I forgive for entirely selfish reasons, because I know the benefits. It's one of my strategies for when I get entirely bound up in meaning and I forget to just let things be without measuring.

But without the fairly extreme example of Christ - and actually the book "A Course In Miracles" - I doubt I would have discovered the utility of strategic forgiveness.

Yes, I'm a Darwinist. Sometimes I'm more fit. The garden spider in my back yard can hang out if it isn't lunging at me. The fire ants though got to go. Sorry guys. Nothing personal, but I am allergic.

 

[WriterDom]

Fire ants are like Whac-a-moles. Kill one mound and another pops up three weeks later. I finally just ordered a truce. But I'm not allergic either.

For the most part if you don't step on their house, they'll leave you alone. Yellow Jackets are another story. I was cutting the grass and the next thing I knew they were all over me. Chased me all the way to the front door and had a couple still on me when I got inside.

 

[Recidiva]

Fire ants are like Whac-a-moles. Kill one mound and another pops up three weeks later. I finally just ordered a truce. But I'm not allergic either.

For the most part if you don't step on their house, they'll leave you alone. Yellow Jackets are another story. I was cutting the grass and the next thing I knew they were all over me. Chased me all the way to the front door and had a couple still on me when I got inside.

Well, there home is in my garden, the place I gotta weed. I also can't go barefoot.

Here in Florida at least they sell weed and feed with fire ant control. I use that and they just move to my neighbor's lawn for a few months.

It's the way fire ants don't leave you alone that gets me. They don't just bite at random, they all get in place, then secrete some sort of "FIRE!" chemical, and they ALL BITE AT ONCE.

That to me is malice with forethought.

 

[Netzach]

Talk about judging Christians! And that's all I'll say since it's pretty clear that most everything in life is tolerated except for Christians.

Can I just let you know there is no more sure fire way to piss off your Jewish neighbors than this kind of persecution complex?

Christians in the US may have some flak to endure and some annoyed eyerolling , but try systemic instutional ongoing bias backed up with guns and gas chambers for a while before you begin to think that you're not adequately "tolerated." Or try getting federal funding for your wiccan school and see what happens. If this level of pressure makes you feel put upon I can't imagine any of all y'all in a catacomb.

Go find me a million billion trillion lions and then we can talk. Yes, if you are a Christian in Lebanon or Iran - you have legitimate problems.

Yeah, I know there are horrible instances like teachers making you take off a rosary that could be a gang sign or a religious item or both, and the Santa thing gets a bit overinsane.

More of the persecutions I've seen have been like one at college. Some fundamentalist denizens graffiti'd "Jesus Saves" on the sign entrance to campus and then pitched a 'tude like this was somehow curtailing expression that any of the rest of us took issue with it. Or the bus driver who refused to drive a bus with an ad for the local gay paper. Um, wrong profession you're in then there, hon.


The persecution thing seems more like "everyone has to be really really politically correct to us toooooo even if we're the majority of every single institution in the US."

 

[Netzach]

My biggest revelation was Judges and Jephthah's daughter. They never mentioned that in Sunday school. (well, I missed a lot of Sundays...)

One of the righteous Judges killed his most dutiful daughter as a sacrifice to God, because he told God he'd sacrifice the first thing he saw when he got home from war. And there she was, dutifully welcoming him.

So apparently Abraham's binding of Isaac and the offering of the ram instead only happens to boy children.

Holy ______.

I went to a really great reform Yom Kippur service on just this.

I think part of the crux of it might be that God didn't put out that booty call, it was Dad's super awesome idea. Don't promise things just to look badass, let God demand the really big stuff.

 

[WriterDom]

Go find me a million billion trillion lions and then we can talk. Yes, if you are a Christian in Lebanon or Iran - you have legitimate problems.

Or post revolution Russia. They killed 20 million just for shits and grins. China, Sudan. Pretty much any country ruled with the Koran or by communists.


Of course the communists are equal opportunity haters. Any flavor of God will do.

 

[00Syd]

Can I just let you know there is no more sure fire way to piss off your Jewish neighbors than this kind of persecution complex?

That was my instant thought, too, but I decided it probably wasn't worth getting into.

 

[Netzach]

Or post revolution Russia. They killed 20 million just for shits and grins. China, Sudan. Pretty much any country ruled with the Koran or by communists.


Of course the communists are equal opportunity haters. Any flavor of God will do.

Dude, other communists work perfectly well also. Apple/Orange. Not every genocide is ethnic cleansing. 20 million people for whatever reason, Stalin's disappearing cabinet photo writ large.

 

[satindesire]

The persecution thing seems more like "everyone has to be really really politically correct to us toooooo even if we're the majority of every single institution in the US."

Uh...yeah. They do. I don't care who's in the majority. I don't care how many signs I see up. It's called equality and it's the right thing to do.

I don't bitch about wiccan people, jewish people, Muslim people, atheists, nothing. I respect everyone's beliefs and I should get the same treatment. I won't tear down a Darwin fish off someone's car tail because they have a right to display their beliefs as they choose, but you can bet that the last three times I put up a religious display on my car, they got torn off.

I don't preach to people. I live my life how I think God wants me too and I won't shove my beliefs down anyone's throat. I'm not forcing anyone to worship the way I am. I'm keeping my religion to myself, which is the politically correct thing to do, yes? But what's unfair to me is hearing about how it's supposedly not fair that Christians, because we're the majority, don't deserve fair treatment?! Wth. That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree Netz.

 

[Recidiva]

I went to a really great reform Yom Kippur service on just this.

I think part of the crux of it might be that God didn't put out that booty call, it was Dad's super awesome idea. Don't promise things just to look badass, let God demand the really big stuff.

I have to come to the conclusion that this sparrow fell and God didn't do anything about it.

From my point of view again, this reflects much more on my opinion of history and of the steno pool than God.

This to me was a purely and uniquely human part of the story. Reflective more upon the current value of women at that time.

I prefer your presented interpretation than the apologists that say "Oh, she didn't really die, she lived happily ever after. Yeah."

Really? Didn't say that.

That was definitely a good time for a miracle, though.

 

[Recidiva]

Uh...yeah. They do. I don't care who's in the majority. I don't care how many signs I see up. It's called equality and it's the right thing to do.

I don't bitch about wiccan people, jewish people, Muslim people, atheists, nothing. I respect everyone's beliefs and I should get the same treatment. I won't tear down a Darwin fish off someone's car tail because they have a right to display their beliefs as they choose, but you can bet that the last three times I put up a religious display on my car, they got torn off.

I don't preach to people. I live my life how I think God wants me too and I won't shove my beliefs down anyone's throat. I'm not forcing anyone to worship the way I am. I'm keeping my religion to myself, which is the politically correct thing to do, yes? But what's unfair to me is hearing about how it's supposedly not fair that Christians, because we're the majority, don't deserve fair treatment?! Wth. That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree Netz.

I think the problem is that you now ARE being treated just like everyone else.

And just like it affects everyone else...who by the way got this treatment at the hands of Christians often...it hurts.

That's one of the problems when you're a genuine practitioner of good faith. You can't dish out punishment, but you will have to take it and turn the other cheek at times from those who use faith as a weapon.

 

[Netzach]

Uh...yeah. They do. I don't care who's in the majority. I don't care how many signs I see up. It's called equality and it's the right thing to do.

I don't bitch about wiccan people, jewish people, Muslim people, atheists, nothing. I respect everyone's beliefs and I should get the same treatment. I won't tear down a Darwin fish off someone's car tail because they have a right to display their beliefs as they choose, but you can bet that the last three times I put up a religious display on my car, they got torn off.

I don't preach to people. I live my life how I think God wants me too and I won't shove my beliefs down anyone's throat. I'm not forcing anyone to worship the way I am. I'm keeping my religion to myself, which is the politically correct thing to do, yes? But what's unfair to me is hearing about how it's supposedly not fair that Christians, because we're the majority, don't deserve fair treatment?! Wth. That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree Netz.

When people equate things like having an icthus pulled off a car bumper with things like subrubs with gentleman's agreements that stayed in effect into the 1980's determining where you can and can't live I find it kind of offensive. Most Christians simply don't even know how non Christians actually ARE treated.

In 1985 if M and I wanted to buy a house in a number of Mpls. burbs, and people got wind of me, no one would sell. 1985. So the attitudinal change that would allow me to settle among people with quiet seething resentment all around has happened in my lifetime.

I have never held a job here in which some unbelievably anti-semitic thing wasn't said to me, either because no one knew I was Jewish, or because I was immediately informed "but you know, you're not like that." I know people say offensive shit to one another all the time, it's life, but in NYC work environments if people said this stuff, dude, Muslim co-workers would have been pissed on my behalf, it was that 1920's retro. This is life in "real america."

I really would take someone stealing our HRC sticker over and over. (Human rights campaign not Hillary)

 

[satindesire]

I think the problem is that you now ARE being treated just like everyone else.

And just like it affects everyone else...who by the way got this treatment at the hands of Christians often...it hurts.

That's one of the problems when you're a genuine practitioner of good faith. You can't dish out punishment, but you will have to take it and turn the other cheek at times from those who use faith as a weapon.

That's exactly what I'm doing. But it doesn't make it any less fair to me. I wasn't back there at the Inquisition. I didn't torture anyone to make them change their religion. I didn't drive the Muslims out of their country. I'm 24! I'm just a stay at home mom who never did anything bad to anyone.

People need to stop holding grudges against all people from a group and move the hell on with their lives. When you start punishing innocent people who didn't take part in an activity that happened a long time ago, YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THE ONES WHO HURT YOU.

When people equate things like having an icthus pulled off a car bumper with things like subrubs with gentleman's agreements that stayed in effect into the 1980's determining where you can and can't live I find it kind of offensive. Most Christians simply don't even know how non Christians actually ARE treated.

In 1985 if M and I wanted to buy a house in a number of Mpls. burbs, and people got wind of me, no one would sell.

I have never held a job here in which some unbelievably anti-semitic thing wasn't said to me, either because no one knew I was Jewish, or because I was immediately informed "but you know, you're not like that." I know people say offensive shit to one another all the time, it's life, but in NYC work environments if people said this stuff, dude, Muslim co-workers would have been pissed on my behalf, it was that 1920's retro.

I really would take someone stealing our HRC sticker over and over. (Human rights campaign not Hillary)

I'm sorry...genuinely sorry that you've been treated unfairly. I dno't think it's right in the least that you have been discriminated again.

It happens to everyone. EVERYONE. I don't think it's fair that you said Christians should be treated unfairly...you know how that feels. Do you think that I deserve to be treated the way you were just because I own up to a certain faith? Honestly?

I have been hounded and verbally harassed at my jobs for being a Christian. I used to get picked on and beat up in school for being a Christian. I know what it's like. My sample of my Jesus fish being stolen off my cars is just a small taste of what I've gone through in this town.

 

[Netzach]

I think the problem is that you now ARE being treated just like everyone else.

And just like it affects everyone else...who by the way got this treatment at the hands of Christians often...it hurts.

That's one of the problems when you're a genuine practitioner of good faith. You can't dish out punishment, but you will have to take it and turn the other cheek at times from those who use faith as a weapon.

It's often assumed that I support Israeli policy wholesale when the subject comes up. Nothing could be further from the truth, but because most people in my demographic do, I have some extra discussion ahead of me and I've been called things.

If someone identfies strongly as a Christian, likewise, they may have to explain that they're not in line with the guys beating up lesbian moms outside coffee shops and bear with the rest of us kind of needing to hear it from the horse's mouth.

 

[Netzach]

That's exactly what I'm doing. But it doesn't make it any less fair to me. I wasn't back there at the Inquisition. I didn't torture anyone to make them change their religion. I didn't drive the Muslims out of their country. I'm 24! I'm just a stay at home mom who never did anything bad to anyone.

People need to stop holding grudges against all people from a group and move the hell on with their lives. When you start punishing innocent people who didn't take part in an activity that happened a long time ago, YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THE ONES WHO HURT YOU.




I'm sorry...genuinely sorry that you've been treated unfairly. I dno't think it's right in the least that you have been discriminated again.

It happens to everyone. EVERYONE. I don't think it's fair that you said Christians should be treated unfairly...you know how that feels. Do you think that I deserve to be treated the way you were just because I own up to a certain faith? Honestly?

I have been hounded and verbally harassed at my jobs for being a Christian. I used to get picked on and beat up in school for being a Christian. I know what it's like. My sample of my Jesus fish being stolen off my cars is just a small taste of what I've gone through in this town.

I've never said anyone *should* be treated unfairly.

I'm saying some things are much more unfair than others, much more systemic than others, and with much longer precedent than others.

To me, not all sins are equal, not all unfairness is potentially as problematic. The religious, let alone cultural, implications of something like the American Indian Boarding schools have no equivalent in American Christianity.

 

[satindesire]

I've never said anyone *should* be treated unfairly.


I'm saying some things are much more unfair than others, much more systemic than others, and with much longer precedent than others.

So what did you mean by this?

The persecution thing seems more like "everyone has to be really really politically correct to us toooooo even if we're the majority of every single institution in the US."

 

[Recidiva]

That's exactly what I'm doing. But it doesn't make it any less fair to me. I wasn't back there at the Inquisition. I didn't torture anyone to make them change their religion. I didn't drive the Muslims out of their country. I'm 24! I'm just a stay at home mom who never did anything bad to anyone.

People need to stop holding grudges against all people from a group and move the hell on with their lives. When you start punishing innocent people who didn't take part in an activity that happened a long time ago, YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THE ONES WHO HURT YOU.

I'm sorry...genuinely sorry that you've been treated unfairly. I dno't think it's right in the least that you have been discriminated again.

It happens to everyone. EVERYONE. I don't think it's fair that you said Christians should be treated unfairly...you know how that feels. Do you think that I deserve to be treated the way you were just because I own up to a certain faith? Honestly?

I have been hounded and verbally harassed at my jobs for being a Christian. I used to get picked on and beat up in school for being a Christian. I know what it's like. My sample of my Jesus fish being stolen off my cars is just a small taste of what I've gone through in this town.

No, it's absolutely not fair. And that's the horror of it. It's mindless and cruel and cowardly. And that's what religious persecution is about.

Hell, I was a Scientologist for a while. You don't even want to know what people accused me of doing or being or wanting. It taught me a lot about what people really believe about "freedom of religion."

My brother's an evangelical Christian and has told his children I'm possessed and I'm the cause of evil in the family.

It's not fair. It's ugly and it's cruel. It always has been.

I don't think you're being treated well. But realistically having a logo torn is not the same as being lynched, thrown in jail, shut down, raided, and having your entire belief system entirely subverted and turned into something evil.

You shouldn't accept it, certainly, but that's not the worst flavor of persecution still available on the menu for many, who would be very happy to have that be the extent of it.

 

[Netzach]

People need to stop holding grudges against all people from a group and move the hell on with their lives. When you start punishing innocent people who didn't take part in an activity that happened a long time ago, YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THE ONES WHO HURT YOU.

Punishing? With what? How?
If people feel guilty that's not my problem and it sure doesn't redress anything.

If people finally look at their own institutions, their own culture and get other people like them who will listen to them to say "maybe we could do this better" that would be worth something.

 

[Netzach]

So what did you mean by this?

I meant that the people dishing it, as a group, are suddenly looking for ways to subvert the only powerful mechanism the minorities have in saying enough, by equating isolated and uncommon incidences with the fallout of ancient, ongoing, and endemic ones.

 

[satindesire]

No, it's absolutely not fair. And that's the horror of it. It's mindless and cruel and cowardly. And that's what religious persecution is about.

Hell, I was a Scientologist for a while. You don't even want to know what people accused me of doing or being or wanting. It taught me a lot about what people really believe about "freedom of religion."

My brother's an evangelical Christian and has told his children I'm possessed and I'm the cause of evil in the family.

It's not fair. It's ugly and it's cruel. It always has been.

I don't think you're being treated well. But realistically having a logo torn is not the same as being lynched, thrown in jail, shut down, raided, and having your entire belief system entirely subverted and turned into something evil.

You shouldn't accept it, certainly, but that's not the worst flavor of persecution still available on the menu for many, who would be very happy to have that be the extent of it.

So what are you implying by stating this? That I don't have a right to be upset about the way my friends and myself have been treated because we haven't been killed or thrown in jail?

Next time you complain about bad traffic or getting your restaurant order taken to you and it's wrong call me.

Punishing? With what? How?
If people feel guilty that's not my problem and it sure doesn't redress anything.

If people finally look at their own institutions, their own culture and get other people like them who will listen to them to say "maybe we could do this better" that would be worth something.

This is what I was replying to when I made the mention of being punished, Netz.

I think the problem is that you now ARE being treated just like everyone else.

And just like it affects everyone else...who by the way got this treatment at the hands of Christians often...it hurts.

That's one of the problems when you're a genuine practitioner of good faith. You can't dish out punishment, but you will have to take it and turn the other cheek at times from those who use faith as a weapon.

"Who by the way got this treatment at the hands of Christians often."

So like I said, because I am merely a member of that faith, that a long-long-long time ago did bad things (and some people to claim to be that faith but aren't, are doing bad things now...) -I-'m the one who gets punished for it. Even though I never bombed an abortion clinic, I've never lynched a gay person, and I never stuck anyone in an Iron Maiden for being a Druid.

I meant that the people dishing it, as a group, are suddenly looking for ways to subvert the only powerful mechanism the minorities have in saying enough, by equating isolated and uncommon incidences with the fallout of ancient, ongoing, and endemic ones.

I'm not trying to subvert any minority. I'm one person, what kind of evil plan can I hatch against the Agnostics and the rest?!

I think we should all get the same rights because in the end, we're all human beings with souls and emotions that MATTER. No matter what faith we perscribe to, no matter what color or skin is, and no matter where we live. We're all INDIVIDUALS, in the end, and we all deserve to be treated respectfully.

 

[Recidiva]

It's often assumed that I support Israeli policy wholesale when the subject comes up. Nothing could be further from the truth, but because most people in my demographic do, I have some extra discussion ahead of me and I've been called things.

If someone identfies strongly as a Christian, likewise, they may have to explain that they're not in line with the guys beating up lesbian moms outside coffee shops and bear with the rest of us kind of needing to hear it from the horse's mouth.

Yes, unfortunately a member of a group becomes subject to all the external malice and ignorance available. It reminds me of a clip from "Ghandi."

Indian guy: Are you Christian, Sahib?
Priest: Yes, yes, I'm a Christian.
Indian guy: I know a Christian. She drinks blood. The blood of Christ - every Sunday!

 

[Recidiva]

So what are you implying by stating this? That I don't have a right to be upset about the way my friends and myself have been treated because we haven't been killed or thrown in jail?

Next time you complain about bad traffic or getting your restaurant order taken to you and it's wrong call me.

This is what I was replying to when I made the mention of being punished, Netz.

"Who by the way got this treatment at the hands of Christians often."

So like I said, because I am merely a member of that faith, that a long-long-long time ago did bad things (and some people to claim to be that faith but aren't, are doing bad things now...) -I-'m the one who gets punished for it. Even though I never bombed an abortion clinic, I've never lynched a gay person, and I never stuck anyone in an Iron Maiden for being a Druid.

No. I think I'm saying over and over it's not fair and you shouldn't tolerate it.

But if you're gonna whip out your scar and claim your faction is now the most persecuted, get ready for missing limbs to be whipped out.

 

[satindesire]

No. I think I'm saying over and over it's not fair and you shouldn't tolerate it.

But if you're gonna whip out your scar and claim your faction is now the most persecuted, get ready for missing limbs to be whipped out.

I never even implied that my faction was the most persecuted. Someone else said that. Go back and reread the fourth page.

 

[Netzach]

"most everything in life is tolerated except for Christians"

This is, I'm reiterating, the quote I was responding to.