Any other atheists here?

[monique1971]

Ah, but your question is easily answered: There is no god.

There. Now wasn't that easy? My work here is done.

Well, duh. I knew that. I should have phrased my question more carefully:

How do those who believe in a Supreme Deity reconcile that belief with the presence of evil and misfortune in the world?

 

[forevervoyaging]

An easy answer, but not a satisfying one.

The converse question would be, "where does good come from?" It seems people are much more comfortable with the idea that good just "evolved" but evil has to be explained. It seems to me (fool that I am), that the two are related. If there is no external framework...both are just labels. So there is no good, no evil. We just like to think of things like that. Like...chocolate and vanilla. It seems that a true "free thinker" must reach this conclusion...we evolved, we live, we fight, we die. We have chosen to define some things as good this decade. Next decade we might change our minds.

Monique, I hesitated to even post since you stated quite clearly you didn't want answers. Fortunately, I don't have answers. I hope that this doesn't seem too "answery". In my own thinking about the same issue, somes things just came to mind.

One is that people on both sides of the issue jump to pat answers too quickly -- the theists AND the a-theists. I have to confess neither set of answers is satisfying.

The second is that I'm not yet ready to declare everything humanity calls good (or evil) just an accidental label. Maybe that means I'm foolish. I prefer to think it still means I'm thinking freely.

The third... does omnipotence mean that no evil would occur? This seems to be given as an axiom by most people. I don't have a conclusion...I'm not omnipotent...but I have toyed with the idea that again this might be "too pat" a response. I have thoughts on the issue, but ... you said you didn't want answers so I will stop there.

You must have been very disturbed to (as you put it) reopen this thread on (of all places) Lit. I hope you find some peace of mind.

 

[figarojonez]

Well, duh. I knew that. I should have phrased my question more carefully:

How do those who believe in a Supreme Deity reconcile that belief with the presence of evil and misfortune in the world?

It really depends on the deity one believes in. Old Testament talks about a simple, angry God that strikes down all those who oppose him. New Testament states that people make their own decisions and are judged after death for it, in a sense, stating "Shit happens, how you deal with it is how your afterlife is dealt with."

Most churches will state that either it's God punishing us for all our wickedness (Fallwell actually said the 9/11 happened because of Jews and Homosexual), or it's all part of God's overall plan.

 

[forevervoyaging]

Well, duh. I knew that. I should have phrased my question more carefully:

How do those who believe in a Supreme Deity reconcile that belief with the presence of evil and misfortune in the world?

I didn't see this last post when I replied the first time.
Then I wrote something and it didn't actually post. *sighs*

If you are just asking how people can think something, I think lots of people tend to grab hold of certain "key beliefs" and then defend them vigorously (even if it means ignoring or explaining away seeming contradictions). This applies to people besides the very religious too.

If you are asking more about the possibility of the existance of a god...

Of course a god CAN exist. At a logical level that isn't really difficult. I think the difficulties arise when people take what churches/holy books say about god, interpret that, and then use that definition to measure the existance/non-existance. Odd that some people will say the religion got it all wrong yet use their definition "religiously" to "prove" god doesn't exist. All that proves is that THAT god doesn't exist, not any god. It seems much more likely that the particular religion made an error. (Or the person doing the disproving made an error.)

As for the issue of omnipotence...can an omnipotent god exist in a world where there is evil/misery? I think that depends on your personal comfort with the definitions of "evil" and "omnipotent". If omnipotent is logically precise, I agree the being cannot exist. The being would have to be capable of existing and not existing at the same time and of making triangles with 8 sides.

However, if we move past that rather useless definition, we reach another interesting point. It seems to be summed up like this: There are things in the universe I don't like. If god is all-powerful it could change that. It doesn't. Why? (or therefore god doesn't exist.)
People seem to eventually reach a point where this "god" crosses a line...basically the "I won't believe in a god that allows X to happen" (which, by the way, says nothing about the existance of god...it says a lot about the person involved). I think that's why a lot of people start religous and then lose their faith...the "pat" answers don't do any good with the big pains of life.

So CAN a being be omnipotent and still "allow" misery? I don't know; I'm not omnipotent. But thinking about it rationally, I can find solutions that allow it to happen...making it a possibility. (Unless I've made a logical error.)
Perhaps the deity assigns different values of importance to misery than we do. (Another way to put it would be "maybe there is something making it worthwhile"). We ourselves punish children (put them through "misery" ) for a bigger issue. Now, I'm not saying all misery is "punishment"! I think that is a "pat" answer. I'm just pointing out that if you are the child, all you see is the misery.

Another thing to consider: balancing the "human equation" is like solving a system of trillions of equations. Mininmizing all those variables is impossible. Not difficult....impossible. Very very simple illustration. Atheist wants to be "left alone". Big rock falling on atheist's head. Should god respect atheist's wish to be left alone, or step in miraculously and save him? There is a contradiction right there and we are just dealing with one person. Now, I'm not saying that the whole answer is "free will" either...I believe that is a "pat" answer. I just think with some thought experiments like this, we can conceive of a god who can exist and still be all-powerful in a way that makes logical sense and still have some misery in the world.

 

[misspihla]

Religious labels seem to be even more restricting than sexual ones.

I call myself a "pagan" because I'm not member of any church. And that doesn't mean I'm into any wicca/new age stuff.

 

[sillytheclown]

I am a believer that something is greater then us, but what that something is, i can't tell you. I won't call myself an agnostic/athiest. I will say that the things i believe don't come out of a book written by men.

My question is, if every religion claims to be right, and worship the one (or in other cases many gods), then how come the god/gods they worship haven't stamped out the other gods by now? Kinda puzzling to me.

p.s. i don't like labels.

 

[sillytheclown]

Here is my reply to alot of this thread.


One of the issues that many people have, is that they can't seperate Catholics with christians. Another of the major problems i see, is this is not just coming from people that arn't christians. Many christians worship Christ over God, which is kinds funny.

Someone claims to believe science is right, is basically making science a religion. Because all a religion is, is by the dictionary is " 1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."

So basically the only thing i know, is that by the definition of religion, the belief in science as being the right way, is a religion. It has its own religious books even. Most people call these science books.

So now that science and religion are both on the same page. Why can't they both be right? I do believe that many people throughout histroy believed both science and religion were right. Hell i even believe that a couple early scientist were priest or religious figures. Where does it say in either science or religious text, that the other can't be partially right? If either shows a place that says that every aspect of either is wrong, where is the proof?

Here is a little something i have learned. The only proper way to decide any religious/scientific dispute, is by dieing and not coming back. When you die, you will know if science or religion is right. The only issue is, how the hell you going to tell anyone else?

Here is my thunk of the day! If everyone believed the same thing, wouldn't we be bored shitless? Isn't half the fun, talking to people that don't believe the same thing as you, so you can learn about them, make conversation!

Well I wish you all the best in what ever you believe!