Ask The Master

[Pure]

Yes, esclava, in my opinion, I certainly think a person attempting to 'dominate' or to impose his or her will should be honest to the partner, and be a generally honest person, not the newspaper stealing type.

Much lying and dishonesty is from either fear or weakness (can't get one's way otherwise).

At the same time, I don't think transparency is called for in all cases, though when it's clear that sometimes when a partner has an expectation, it may be best to address it.

HOWEVER, speaking from one side of the gender line, just because a man is silent upon hearing a woman's hope, dream, or expectation ("I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot of each other"), {it} should NOT be taken as agreement. BIG mistake on women's part. **


**Added: I'm aware of Etoile's well stated amendment.

 

[Etoile]

HOWEVER, speaking from one side of the gender line, just because a man is silent upon hearing a woman's hope, dream, or expectation ("I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot of each other"), should NOT be taken as agreement. BIG mistake on women's part.

Speaking as a lesbian, I can pretty confidently express that it's not only men who do this.

 

[CharleyH]

a person cannot properly dominate another who is:

not willing. It becomes something else.

A person cannot dominate (and I use the small d because anyone who doesn't think a sub has power is an asshole) yet again a person dominates because they are:

willing to dominate.

As always Etiole is the only one other than Francesco and Catalina that makes sense to me.

EDIT: I haven't read every post - so I'm sure there are others who make sense.

 

[Netzach]

Aha, you THOUGHT you could staunch my "what about me?"

I think rosco makes a perfect kind of internal logic.

Pure's very hung up on the imposition of will thing. It's the secret ingredient that pushes service Top who takes orders like a drive through over into the land of "actual Domination."

I've never really given much thought to logistics. If someone experiences an emotional loss of control via an enactment, like someone might be transported by a really good book or film, then cool. Just 'cause it's a simulacra to me doesn't mean it's lame or that the influence isn't profound.

 

[Etoile]

Just stumbled across this:
http://www.twoheartsonesoul.com/acidtest.htm
Claims to be instructions for determining if someone is a "fake Dom"

 

[Kajira Callista]

Just stumbled across this:
http://www.twoheartsonesoul.com/acidtest.htm
Claims to be instructions for determining if someone is a "fake Dom"

Thank you Etoile....imo everyone should read that Dom and sub alike.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Don't know about all this fake versus real doms stuff, anymore than the whole 'slaves are more subby than thou' controversy. But some of the actual acid test items (once you get to the numbers, not just the descriptions of types) even look like good ones for avoiding jerky partners, in general, not just doms. (Avoid potential partners who make you feel uncomfortable, and who don't admit to ever making mistakes, for instance.)

They left a couple of things off, though. I was serious about a sense of humor. Bet you most serial killers aren't much for joking around.

But then what do I know? I'm probably not even a real bdsm-er.

 

[Pure]

Interesting site Etoile.
i wont be sitting at the foot of anyone named dr spankenstein,

or who says they're a thinker and hasn't quite gotten clear about compliment and complement.

it's turning into an interesting genre of literature, internet advice directions on who else's directions to avoid. (had a go at it myself)

 

[Esclava]

Whether one should avoid any advice or just take all of it in and weigh each on its own merit is an individual choice. Personally, I prefer the latter. You can find good in the bad, just as long as you take the time to "pay attention."

Esclava

 

[Pure]

Phoenix, you make several good points. On one, I would differ.

//Bet you most serial killers aren't much for joking around. //

Bundy had a sense of humor, was respected as a sociable activist in the Republican party, had a girl friend and other friends.

While internet persona is iffy, real life appearances, too, can and have been deceiving, including apparent acknowledgement of mistakes, 'easygoing-ness,' and willingness to joke.

The psychopath has got the routine down so well, that virtually anyone can be fooled IN PERSON -- in the short run, and in the absence of checking out history and stories. Indeed all 'RED FLAG' lists are quite possibly, fine guides for clever rogues and psychopaths:

Do not say "I NEVER make mistakes." Do not, in first meeting say, "You MUST call me SIR." etc.

J.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Whether one should avoid any advice or just take all of it in and weigh each on its own merit is an individual choice. Personally, I prefer the latter. You can find good in the bad, just as long as you take the time to "pay attention."

Esclava

Thats the key Esclava...paying attention, the online world is very different the the real one, we can't use all our senses to draw conclusions about people we meet, and i believe sub/slaves need to use all of them (senses) and go with the tummy feeling.
So Pure that is why i think that site was a good one...it is about "internet Dominants" and gives clues to a person who is new to the online deal that they may just overlook.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

While internet persona is iffy, real life appearances, too, can and have been deceiving, including apparent acknowledgement of mistakes, 'easygoing-ness,' and willingness to joke.

The psychopath has got the routine down so well, that virtually anyone can be fooled IN PERSON -- in the short run, and in the absence of checking out history and stories. Indeed all 'RED FLAG' lists are quite possibly, fine guides for clever rogues and psychopaths:

Do not say "I NEVER make mistakes." Do not, in first meeting say, "You MUST call me SIR." etc.

J.

Yeah, ya know after posting I've thought more about the many rapists and sexual predators I knew and they mostly came off as quite easy-going, able to say the right things, etc. (Was hoping the serial killers were different:/)

And I was struck, too, about those lists being good shopping lists for psychopaths. Even checking out references doesn't always work. (Note Bundy's girlfriend.)

Funny thing is, I feel like from unfortunate experience, I have a damn good detector now, and have been wracking my brain for some real signs to pass on. Rather than signs, probably 'how to behave' rules, such as making sure you have a safe call, make the most sense.

My personal how-to's? You are most vulnerable when you are new. I watch out for guys who want to be my friendly guide right away. Most predators don't want a slow game, so early on you are more at risk. But this includes the ones who you know briefly, who then are gone for a while, and are around again. The time they aren't around doesn't count as 'getting to know you' time.

Certainly don't use any mind-altering substances, including alcohol, the first few times you are alone. Don't trust guys who say things like 'relax, you're too tense.' Or who act affronted at your not trusting them. If a guy says, 'what do you think I'm going to do (or trying to do), rape you?' he probably is. Know your own manipulation buttons so they can't be used against you.

Problem is, most of the stuff I know is probably pretty subtle. Like how 'boundary testing' is done versus a perfectly nice guy who just gave it a shot and will now be ok. I know how to fake being relaxed and at ease in dangerous situations now, and when I find myself, my body, putting that on, I know that somewhere in my deeper lizard brain my body got a warning. Bundy might have been able to get me (if I remember correctly, he acted in broad daylight, in a public place, was wearing a fake cast, and acted very quickly) but not your run-of-the-mill predator. ('Course some terrific self-defense training helps!)

Btw, a lot of that stuff about horny net guys and control freaks to avoid -- well, depending on your kink, they might be just what you are looking for. Some of us LIKE to cyber.

 

[the shadow of a boy]

A quick blurt after scanning the posts... I have a destination to arrive at.
The 'red flag' type lists are the sort of signs you can expect to see from someone who is abusive. Not necessarily from a sociopath*, or any other type of 'inhuman' predator.
That doesn't mean they're not useful; the abusive are more frequently encountered, and manage to cause more harm and sorrow than all the Ted Bundies of the world put together.

*Sociopathy, to my understanding, is rooted in a neurological/neurochemical abnormality; the majority of sociopaths do not choose fatal or illegal ways to play with humans. They tend to prefer sales careers. (and no, that isn't a joke, although it is hearsay.)

 

[Pure]

TSOB//They tend to prefer sales careers. //

or psychiatry, law or politics.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

A quick blurt after scanning the posts... I have a destination to arrive at.
The 'red flag' type lists are the sort of signs you can expect to see from someone who is abusive. Not necessarily from a sociopath*, or any other type of 'inhuman' predator.
That doesn't mean they're not useful; the abusive are more frequently encountered, and manage to cause more harm and sorrow than all the Ted Bundies of the world put together.

*Sociopathy, to my understanding, is rooted in a neurological/neurochemical abnormality; the majority of sociopaths do not choose fatal or illegal ways to play with humans. They tend to prefer sales careers. (and no, that isn't a joke, although it is hearsay.)

Ok, if we're gonna play serious -- one of the problems with that list -- which I basically think is pretty good and better than most (IME), is that it's got a lot of things/types mixed up together. 'The Abusive' come in at least two categories -- those who will hurt you because they just don't know what they are doing, and those who do (know what they are doing). In other words, the list mixes up and seems to confuse clumsy amateurs with dangerous sociopaths. A lot of the descriptions seem to be more of beginners and such, as opposed to people who are either trying to seriously hurt you, or just don't care if they hurt you. Which ones are you trying to avoid? Usually the latter two, but there are a lot more hints for avoiding the first (which is easier to do.)

The parts of the list that pertain to sociopaths are still mostly helpful with the more common minor-league, less-successful, and more self-protective sociopaths. 'The majority of sociopaths don't choose fatal or illegal ways to play with humans' only because they don't have to, and don't want to be caught and hampered from doing what they want. One thing you can trust in, is that most sociopaths don't want to waste time in jail, so are likely to set things up so that you won't tell.

It's pretty easy to think like one, if you put on a mental filter that says that you are the only one that matters. They think it's a game. They might get angry if you resist being abused -- or just think it's funny. You are a mouse, they are a cat. They may even congratulate you for escaping, or fooling them, if you do. It's happened to me. A rueful headshake, a little laugh.
(Btw, at least one study on sociopathy connects it to a subnormal reaction to adrenaline.)

 

[erotic_writer_girl]

dangerous people

The truly dangerous people I have met (and I have met my fair share and someone elses share too) were not the seemingly mentally disturbed...

they were the people who had big friendly smiles and firm hand shakes, they'd look you in the eye and put you at ease... they were confident and sure of themselves and they had great senses of humour and were all very intelligent. They were all hardworking upstanding members of their communities.

I know you would have a hard time picking them as truly dangerous people.. the one thing that made the ones I met stand out is the calculated way they did things.. and that is not something they did straight off...

And yes when I did escape the reaction was. "Nice try! I was wondering how long it would take you to try. Now come on back home, dinner is nearly ready." as if me trying to escape was simply an afternoon of fun.....

I didn't have much choice about the coming back home part... loaded 12 guage shotguns dont leave a lot of choice..

However it did get to the point one day where being on the wrong end of the shotgun one day was to much and I stared him in the eye and said. "Fuckin shoot me I am past caring" and then I turned my back and walked away....he laughed at me and said "Took ya long enough" and then he unloaded the gun and never loaded it again.

But there were times when he was so damn drunk that he could just shoot me by accident.. without even meaning to. that was somehow scarier.

Sorry didnt want to take things off on a tangent but I have to say that I want to press home the point you just cant tell until it is too late....

The difference between that situation and the Dom/sub relationship is that I am ready and willing to submit to the right man... in a given set of parameters.. in the right time... in a trusting relationship.

And yeah you can bet your toosh that gunplay is gunna be on the "waybeyondhard limit list".

well now ya know even more about me..... wish it was happier stuff... am gunna work on posting something seriously happy.

EWG

My first story for literotica has been approved.
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=132065

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Yup. Know what you mean. Wish I didn't. Both in the house and out.

I've been able to tell (who to watch out for) enough times since, though, and gotten out of enough situations, mostly thru the kind of nerve and risk you are talking about (and getting it that they don't want to get caught, so except when under the influence or off their meds or whatever, they won't kill.) You get a kind of subliminal radar or something from enough of this. And, like I said, really great self-defense classes can help -- for confidence, if nothing else. (Try Googling BAMM or Impact, for the best.) They are usually not attracted to confidence -- too much trouble. (Unless they get a good opportunity, of course). I guess where we differ is that I really think I can tell now, because I have -- just wish I could articulate better HOw. That's why I keep coming back -- keep thinking something helpful will come to me. (Besides the self-defense classes.)

Sorry to hijack thread. This stuff seems important to discuss.

 

[Esclava]

It is really more difficult than one would imagine to sort through those people who would cause you serious harm - whether they know what they are doing or not. I know what I have been through, but it frightens me to know how close danger lurks.

It makes me want to only ask subs for references on those (who are no longer their Master) that they have had good experience with. Unfortunately, I would always wonder - if they had a good experience with Them, why are they no longer with Them?

Any guidance on good ways for newbies to find mentors/others that will help them sort out what they are looking for in a Dom?

Esclava

 

[ethereal~minx]

*grinning* I haven't had any interaction with you to speak of but uhm, I ---

you're very clever *reading your posts through shrewd & curious, almost smiling eyes* and I just don't know what to make of you

I do see that you know how to make people pretty upset and you caught me a few times, but I read further..I'm thinking you're clever *nodding* because well, even if some of what you say~ (without asking for further clarification on my part) sits uncomfortable to me, I take with me what I choose~~~

I think your teaching *laughing* goes over the heads of many and yo---- I guess I want to believe you're being clever. I've placed a coupla guys in the "holier than thou" light and it's not bad to see them there unless it hurts you~~~ and it's probably not --it's not bad, I'm sure *laughing again* to have a God-complex as long as you see and honor the God light in the submissive

yep, I think it's all done to make people THINK!
and that is obviously happening~~~ it's been entertaining

"...bless and appreciate those who challenge you, as reflections of the parts of your mind and heart calling to be healed. the fact that they disturbed you means that you have already disturbed yourself on that issue; they are pointing to your next step of self-love, acceptance, and healing. You can look upon someone who annoys you as your best friend, for they help you to grow."

 

[Esclava]

*grinning* I haven't had any interaction with you to speak of but uhm, I ---

you're very clever *reading your posts through shrewd & curious, almost smiling eyes* and I just don't know what to make of you

I do see that you know how to make people pretty upset and you caught me a few times, but I read further..I'm thinking you're clever *nodding* because well, even if some of what you say~ (without asking for further clarification on my part) sits uncomfortable to me, I take with me what I choose~~~

I think your teaching *laughing* goes over the heads of many and yo---- I guess I want to believe you're being clever. I've placed a coupla guys in the "holier than thou" light and it's not bad to see them there unless it hurts you~~~ and it's probably not --it's not bad, I'm sure *laughing again* to have a God-complex as long as you see and honor the God light in the submissive

yep, I think it's all done to make people THINK!
and that is obviously happening~~~ it's been entertaining

"...bless and appreciate those who challenge you, as reflections of the parts of your mind and heart calling to be healed. the fact that they disturbed you means that you have already disturbed yourself on that issue; they are pointing to your next step of self-love, acceptance, and healing. You can look upon someone who annoys you as your best friend, for they help you to grow."

Very interesting viewpoint...

Esclava

 

[Netzach]

<-- saleswoman.


Nuff said.

 

[Esclava]

I'm kind of sad that this thread went sooooo....off course (down in flames, if you will). It had some raucous exchanges, but to me that just meant that people were passionate about the ideas and information they were exchanging.

If I can come up with a thread that will be a place where information can be given, received and honestly exchanged without the flames. I'll be back! Good BDSM to you all!

Esclava

 

[blue kat]

bumping cautiously for a bud

Aside from the way this flamed out, it was a good idea. Maybe we can get it back on track people. Someone ask a question.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I'm in a mode of bumping my own threads this month. An all time classic.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I'm in a mode of bumping my own threads this month. An all time classic.

And well deserving in bumpage despite the "ooo flame on" histrionics.