BDSM and Christian beliefs

[Kajira Callista]

Sorry don't want to have a religious debate here.

I too am Roman Catholic, not a very good one. But correct if I am wrong: According to the Catholic religion, one should only have sex to pro-create and not for enjoyment. In fact, I have friends who are in more Orthodox version of the RC and they do not have sex during lent. The Catholic Religion historically had specific days to have sex. Here is something about it: http://innerself.com/Sex_Talk/Sex_And_Religion.htm

You have separated them but in the RC they are in fact very connected. I have also learned to separate them and I always remember that whatever I do it is consensual.

I have been going to mass since i was born...never once have i heard any of what you have said about the RC religion. I dont think any of us have been to church during lent and heard a preist say...btw you cant have sex for 40 days
btw your link doesnt work.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Can you please go out and reform the other Catholics, KC?

btw Netzach the RC church has changed drastically in the past years... it is no longer about everything you do is wrong or sinful, its about you are supposed to sin (make bad choices) because you are human. I could go on all day but i will bore and prolly scare all of you lol.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

This thread - and some of the (what appear to me to be) sneakily sarcastic posts in it - reminds me why (1) I gave up "organized" religion, and (2) why I decided long ago to keep my relationship with any God/Goddess/plural-of-the-preceding between me and Him/Her/It/Them.

 

[Netzach]

btw Netzach the RC church has changed drastically in the past years... it is no longer about everything you do is wrong or sinful, its about you are supposed to sin (make bad choices) because you are human. I could go on all day but i will bore and prolly scare all of you lol.

Oh I know it has, or parts of it have. I have some very close liberal and liberation-theology Catholic friends, I know there are currents of change there as in all religions, and I know that the idea of a religion for a lot of people is not to live in lock step with every word of the tenets, but to hold to principles and generalities and use it as a map and an inspiration. Any kind of fundamentalism scares and perplexes me, that's all.

BTW I like your take on it, while SM has a spiritual aspect for me, I don't like to ascribe pervy things to my deity, really. I do think it wants me to do good things, and I think I connect to humanity in a compassionate and loving way via SM, so in my estimation, that's good.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Oh I know it has, or parts of it have. I have some very close liberal and liberation-theology Catholic friends, I know there are currents of change there as in all religions, and I know that the idea of a religion for a lot of people is not to live in lock step with every word of the tenets, but to hold to principles and generalities and use it as a map and an inspiration. Any kind of fundamentalism scares and perplexes me, that's all.

 

[Christina O. Leigh]

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[Christina O. Leigh]

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[Etoile]

1. Love one another

Except homosexually.

 

[Miss Diva]

btw your link doesnt work.

Hi Kajira Callista:

Sorry the link works for me even in this site. I will PM it to you

However histrically and in some areas of the world (Italy, where my parents are from and Latin America, sex is taught that it is dirty). I am not saying it is right but this is a fact.

Having said all this though. I still believe in the church and I have tremendous respect for Pope John Paul the second. Don't ask why, just a feeling. In addition, I feel i do not need to go to church to speak to God. Everyday I see proof of God's mysterious work and sense of humour (check out the platypus from Australia ) . And I am trying to work my way out of feeling guilty about many things.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Hi Kajira Callista:

Sorry the link works for me even in this site. I will PM it to you

However histrically and in some areas of the world (Italy, where my parents are from and Latin America, sex is taught that it is dirty). I am not saying it is right but this is a fact.

Having said all this though. I still believe in the church and I have tremendous respect for Pope John Paul the second. Don't ask why, just a feeling. In addition, I feel i do not need to go to church to speak to God. Everyday I see proof of God's mysterious work and sense of humour (check out the platypus from Australia ) . And I am trying to work my way out of feeling guilty about many things.

i dont go to church because im supposed to, i go because its something that makes me feel good and helps me focus, i take my children with me because i would like for it to be the same for them. I am also from an italian family and sex is not viewed as dirty, you are only taught what your parents are taught about sex. Because "sex is dirty" or had been said to be by your family, does not mean that is the churches stand on the subject.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Except homosexually.

here is something that few understand. being homosexual is not forbidden by the church, God accepts everyone good bad gay fat thin green or orange... when someone truly understands that and learns that they can actually look past the ppl making judgements on them to something so much more beautiful...it makes living so much more worthwhile. I dont believe that the God i worship wants ppl to live with guilt.


ok im gonna stop before someone says amen lol

 

[Etoile]

here is something that few understand. being homosexual is not forbidden by the church, God accepts everyone good bad gay fat thin green or orange... when someone truly understands that and learns that they can actually look past the ppl making judgements on them to something so much more beautiful...it makes living so much more worthwhile. I dont believe that the God i worship wants ppl to live with guilt.

Actually, I do understand that part.

My uncle (mom's brother) is Marty Barrack, if that name means anything to anybody. rabid catholic. His website is www.secondexodus.com . He's explained to me that it's a "love the sinner, hate the sin" kind of thing. But from my perspective, you CAN'T do that. Part of being a homosexual is having gay sex. Requiring all queers to be celibate is just plain absurd!

 

[Kajira Callista]

Actually, I do understand that part.

My uncle (mom's brother) is Marty Barrack, if that name means anything to anybody. rabid catholic. His website is www.secondexodus.com . He's explained to me that it's a "love the sinner, hate the sin" kind of thing. But from my perspective, you CAN'T do that. Part of being a homosexual is having gay sex. Requiring all queers to be celibate is just plain absurd!

lol God doesnt care if you sin, you are supposed to. And if you are in a loving relationship with a person who loves you back i dont think God would see it as a sin. You can read anything you want into words written in the bible. you can make them good or bad or both, or take from it what fits your world and be happy with that.

 

[Miss Diva]

ok im gonna stop before someone says amen lol

AMEN (old habits die hard)

 

[Kajira Callista]

AMEN (old habits die hard)

did you genuflect and make the sign of the cross too?

 

[Christina O. Leigh]

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[Miss Diva]

did you genuflect and make the sign of the cross too?

OOPs I forgot. That will 5 Hail Mary's and 5 Our Fathers.

 

[Pure]

Netzach said,

//I have some very close liberal and liberation-theology Catholic friends, I know there are currents of change there as in all religions,//

There's an enclave of liberal RCs here in this city, also, centred in the University community. There are indeed liberals at the lowest levels, and sometimes in the priesthood of North and Latin America.

That said, the higher officialdom (Vatican) of the RCC, imo, is not showing any good effects of the 'currents of change', which seem to have peaked under John XXIII.

The boatloads of 'saints' being appointed includes some very retrograde figures, such as Mother Theresa and a founder of Opus Dei.

A prominent 'liberation theologian' was, a few years back, hauled up before a Vatican committee -- on Propagation of the Faith, the old inquisitorial entity-- and grilled on his possible heterodoxy.

Leaving aside 'gay' issues, the present officialdom (including the present pope) is so opposed to FORNICATION that it opposes promoting condom use and availability in the most vulnerable populations, e.g., US teens, and the adults in AIDS-plague ridden Africa.

The Southern Baptists (many stripes of them) are in the same boat. So, all in all, the 'sex positive' Christians are by no means dominant, except in some North American 'liberal' churches--the ones losing members.

IOW, even before you get to SM, you're on shaky territory vis a vis many Christian groups, both officials and members. That leaves the 'SM in marriage' question, as promoted at the 'pastor bob' website earlier mentioned.

But clearly there's going to be a problem (in much of [non-liberal] Christian-dom) with your run-of-the mill SM practicer who isn't in a lifetime committed relationship.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Actually, I do understand that part.

My uncle (mom's brother) is Marty Barrack, if that name means anything to anybody. rabid catholic. His website is www.secondexodus.com . He's explained to me that it's a "love the sinner, hate the sin" kind of thing. But from my perspective, you CAN'T do that. Part of being a homosexual is having gay sex. Requiring all queers to be celibate is just plain absurd!

It is the belief of the present Pope that as you say homosexuals must remain celibate at the very least . I also do not agree the RC church has changed it's attitude toward sexuality and the practice thereof. If that were so why is it still a reality that the Pope wil not support the provision or use of condoms in 3rd world countries where HIV and AIDS are running rampant? The reality is women in loving relationships in these countries, and their children are paying the ultimate price for the beliefs of a religious system which refuses to allow them protection.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

I must agree with Cat,.

KC said,
God doesnt care if you sin, you are supposed to. And if you are in a loving relationship with a person who loves you back i dont think God would see it as a sin.

KC may be articulating a fine, even 'true' version of liberal Christianity, but it's one not shared, e.g., by the Pope and many 'authorities,' Catholic and 'fundamentalist' protestant (e.g., many breeds of Southern Baptists)--and I'm speaking of homosexual 'acts', not tendencies.

It's also worth noting, since Xtianity stems from Judaism, that Orthodox Judaism--i.e, the rabbinical authorities have a *great problem* with homosexual practices, and hence the suffering of Orthodox AIDS patients is vastly compounded.

In a nutshell, if one takes the 'Adam and Eve' stuff seriously, or one Gospel's talk of 'no divorce' seriously; i.e., if you're focussed on monogamous lifelong marriage as THE God-sanctioned, human, family and reproductive set-up, you're going to have a problem with 'fornication' [non marital sex, esp. by the woman], SM outside marriage, and homosexual acts and lifestyle.

 

[Kajira Callista]

It is the belief of the present Pope that as you say homosexuals must remain celibate at the very least . I also do not agree the RC church has changed it's attitude toward sexuality and the practice thereof. If that were so why is it still a reality that the Pope wil not support the provision or use of condoms in 3rd world countries where HIV and AIDS are running rampant? The reality is women in loving relationships in these countries, and their children are paying the ultimate price for the beliefs of a religious system which refuses to allow them protection.

Catalina

well im not gonna pound my chest in defense of what i believe in....but please do remember you are making your judgment as an outsider looking in.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I must agree with Cat,.

KC said,
God doesnt care if you sin, you are supposed to. And if you are in a loving relationship with a person who loves you back i dont think God would see it as a sin.

KC may be articulating a fine, even 'true' version of liberal Christianity, but it's one not shared, e.g., by the Pope and many 'authorities,' Catholic and 'fundamentalist' protestant (e.g., many breeds of Southern Baptists)--and I'm speaking of homosexual 'acts', not tendencies.

It's also worth noting, since Xtianity stems from Judaism, that Orthodox Judaism--i.e, the rabbinical authorities have a *great problem* with homosexual practices, and hence the suffering of Orthodox AIDS patients is vastly compounded.

In a nutshell, if one takes the 'Adam and Eve' stuff seriously, or one Gospel's talk of 'no divorce' seriously; i.e., if you're focussed on monogamous lifelong marriage as THE God-sanctioned, human, family and reproductive set-up, you're going to have a problem with 'fornication' [non marital sex, esp. by the woman], SM outside marriage, and homosexual acts and lifestyle.

The church gives you guidelines, it does not tell you what you can and cant do, Pure.

 

[Etoile]

The church gives you guidelines, it does not tell you what you can and cant do, Pure.

That's true, but there are many people who are absolutely certain they will go to hell if they don't believe as the church says they should believe. Their fear of hell is so great that the church effectively is telling them what to do/not do/believe.

 

[Kajira Callista]

That's true, but there are many people who are absolutely certain they will go to hell if they don't believe as the church says they should believe. Their fear of hell is so great that the church effectively is telling them what to do/not do/believe.

well if they understood their religion they would know all they had to do is ask for Gods forgiveness of their sins and they would be forgiven...you dont even have to recite each one...just saying you are sorry for whatever you percieve as a sin is all it takes to guarantee heaven.

 

[catalina_francisco]

well im not gonna pound my chest in defense of what i believe in....but please do remember you are making your judgment as an outsider looking in.

Sorry KC, this is not personal nor is it my judgement, it is as it is in the RC church and this side of the pond at least is discussed often and openly. Last time I checked, the Pope was the representative of the RC church which still places it's headquarters in the Vatican as far as I know, and whether you choose to agree with their laws and recommendations it is what is sanctioned and practiced by the church. Reality is many are dying because of the churches refusal to allow protection for women whose husbands frequent AIDS and HIV infected prostitutes in Africa alone....and this is just one area where the Pope refuses to move into the needs of the 21st century in the interests of protecting the flock.

It is not about what you believe, it is about what your church believes. Unfortunately, though you can take a personal choice to not follow to the letter a church's beliefs and practices, it does not change their belief. (Mel Gibson as a RC for one will not allow birth control for his wife because of the Pope and church laws) As for being an outsider....I am married to a RC from a family which to my knowledge has been raised in Catholicism....at least I presume so from conversations, his mother's views and house decorating with religious icons everywhere, and regular church going. Sometimes being an outsider allows a clearer view without feeling the need to defend what is spoken of in texts and Papal speeches on a regular basis.

Catalina