BDSM and Christian beliefs

[Etoile]

and how many ppl do you personally know that have been excommunicated?

I like you, KC, but that's a bullshit response. Whether I personally know people who have been excommunicated is totally beside the point. Just because I don't know anybody with Hodgkin's lymphoma doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fact is that excommunication does exist, and even though you want the world to be nice and happy and all-inclusive, there is still discrimination and there are churches and religions that do bar people from participating in their collective faith.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I like you, KC, but that's a bullshit response. Whether I personally know people who have been excommunicated is totally beside the point. Just because I don't know anybody with Hodgkin's lymphoma doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fact is that excommunication does exist, and even though you want the world to be nice and happy and all-inclusive, there is still discrimination and there are churches and religions that do bar people from participating in their collective faith.

Ya know what... The point is this; no matter what anyones opinion is, no matter how negative you or anyone chooses to portray my religion...no matter how bad you think organized religion is...my feelings still stay the same. Practicing my religion brings me peace, it is something very important in my life...and no im not ashamed of who i am or what i do because im catholic...and never ever will be.
I will tell you one more thing, but the details will get left out because im not up to Pure tearing my personal shit to pieces.
When everyone else...family...friends...everyone turned their backs on me...my church got me back on my feet and helped. They didnt judge me or excommunicate me or any of these things that ppl have posted in this thread. They welcomed me, and helped me, and cared about me and my kids when no one else did, and they did it because that is what the church is all about.

 

[Etoile]

Ya know what... The point is this; no matter what anyones opinion is, no matter how negative you or anyone chooses to portray my religion...no matter how bad you think organized religion is...my feelings still stay the same. Practicing my religion brings me peace, it is something very important in my life...and no im not ashamed of who i am or what i do because im catholic...and never ever will be.
I will tell you one more thing, but the details will get left out because im not up to Pure tearing my personal shit to pieces.
When everyone else...family...friends...everyone turned their backs on me...my church got me back on my feet and helped. They didnt judge me or excommunicate me or any of these things that ppl have posted in this thread. They welcomed me, and helped me, and cared about me and my kids when no one else did, and they did it because that is what the church is all about.

Okay, nice way to say "I can't win this argument," but whatever.

I am delighted that your church has helped you so much, KC. Just because religion isn't a part of my life doesn't mean it shouldn't be part of anybody else's. In fact, there are times when I am jealous of people who can pray to God for help, or blame things on God, etc. I wish I had that kind of comfort, but I don't.

My point, though, was that there are religions that are not as inclusive. I wasn't necessarily speaking of yours in particular; I was speaking in general terms ONLY. And while I'm glad your church has supported you, there are a lot of other people who have been rejected by their church. That's how groups like Soulforce and MCC came about.

 

[Netzach]

Etoile, the nice gay people who started and go to Spirit of the Lakes, a congregation geared towards the queer in my city, would consider themselves Christian. Are they not?

The people in Dignity consider themselves Catholics. So the Pope and O'Connor don't want them to be...do you want to side with the Pope and say they aren't?

I see where you and Pure are going...I just don't think I'm doing myself a favor when I think of libera and moderatel Christians as some fringe part of Christianity rather than a serious force to be reckoned with, as legitimately Christian.

 

[Esclava]

Etoile, the nice gay people who started and go to Spirit of the Lakes, a congregation geared towards the queer in my city, would consider themselves Christian. Are they not?

They are - because they are living according to the new covenant left by Jesus when he walked the earth as God in human form. Jesus was crystal clear when he said he was the way, the truth and the life and NO MAN comes to the Father but by Him.

If believing this makes me an individualist with an individual version of Christianity, then great! I don't see it that way, but if you do, fine. But by the same token - if that's true, there may not be as many going to Heaven as think they are.

The people in Dignity consider themselves Catholics. So the Pope and O'Connor don't want them to be...do you want to side with the Pope and say they aren't?

I see where you and Pure are going...I just don't think I'm doing myself a favor when I think of libera and moderatel Christians as some fringe part of Christianity rather than a serious force to be reckoned with, as legitimately Christian.

I see where they are going and can even understand it. But I can say, "I see and understand your point. I don't agree with it; so, let's just agree to disagree and allow the discussion to continue.

Which is exactly what I'm saying to you, Pure.

Esclava

 

[Etoile]

Etoile, the nice gay people who started and go to Spirit of the Lakes, a congregation geared towards the queer in my city, would consider themselves Christian. Are they not?

The people in Dignity consider themselves Catholics. So the Pope and O'Connor don't want them to be...do you want to side with the Pope and say they aren't?

Oh no, they absolutely are. I was just debating with KC about mainstream religion turning people away.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Yes, that's where the word "excommunication" comes from.

And yes, I have known people who have been turned away from their church and not for doing anything as horrendous as rape, murder, or pedophelia. Not to mention the disillusionment I have found throughout my life in what is referred to here as organised religion. Fpr instance on the side of the revered clergy, I have had a minister attempt to bribe me into attending a church service....buying faith didn't quite seem to be right to me...and I have known a RC priest who is a switch and plays with men and women, including sexually.

Something which always gets me when people get heated about 'their' religion and the church they follow is where in the Bible does it tell us Jesus was a RC, Methodist, CofE, or any of those religions which people feel are so true to the word, and so much better than the rest simply bcause it is the one they were born or introduced to? I have much more respect for spirituality than particular religions and their preferred doctrine. That does not mean I do not have a belief system, just I am not overawed by the modern version of Christianty and the rights it supposedly bestows upon it's followers. Going to church and/or supporting a particular doctrine IMO is not a certain ticket through the pearly gates, how you treat your fellow human being may be.

I actually find it fascinating that those who have died and been brought back say there is no right religion, nor is anyone turned away especially on the grounds of their religion.....whether you are atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, or RC, or whether you are gay, straight, pervert, virgin, a Dom/me or submissive, you will enter the same place and be welcomed warmly.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

Sexy Mom and Kaj seem hard put to think of a church or religion that isn't tolerant and 'sex positive'.

Kajira said,
OK , why do people think that a religion condemns anything or anyone? I think that is where my problem with this whole thread it. Do you know of any church who turns away or condemns anyone? Because i sure as hell dont.
===

and how many ppl do you personally know that have been excommunicated?


Sexy Mom said,
//Where did the idea that Christianity isn't sex-positive come from? That seems rather odd to me. Of course, all religions have their ideas as to what is forbidden,...//


QUESTIONS FOR ELIZABETH STROUD
New York Times Magazine 12-19-04

No Tidings of Comfort or Joy

Interview by DEBORAH SOLOMON

Published: December 19, 2004

[Solomon]Now that the United Methodist Church has convicted you of violating the ban on homosexuality and removed you from the ministry, can you still be called Reverend?

[Stroud]No. It is heartbreaking to have lost my official credentials.

[Sol]On the other hand, why did you decide to be ordained as a minister in a denomination that is so disdainful of gays?

[Str]I felt profoundly and deeply called by God to become a minister. Which is not to say that I haven't said many times, ''God, what were you thinking?''

[Sol]Have you considered switching to the Episcopal Church, which recently ordained the world's first openly gay bishop?

[Str]I definitely considered becoming an Episcopalian during my first two years as a minister, when being in the closet was making me a little crazy. I would literally come home many nights and just cry.





[Sol]What kept you from switching?

[Str]I had almost decided to do it, but then I received a call.

Another call from God?

[Str]No, a call from the First United Methodist Church of Germantown, asking if I could come to Philadelphia to work there. Sometimes I wish God would call me on the phone, but God never seems to do that.

[Sol]You're the third lesbian in two decades to be tried by a jury assembled by the Methodist Church, but they haven't openly tried any gay men. What do they have against lesbians?

[Str]I don't know. I really don't. Are we more hardheaded and less willing to compromise?

[Sol]I would guess that lesbians are viewed as a menace by a patriarchal institution like the church because they take men out of the equation, or at least make men feel less important.

[Str]I think it's because we have chosen to tell the truth. I could have remained closeted or refused to answer questions about my sex life. But I felt that not telling the whole truth about who I am was compromising my faith.

Will you be allowed to continue working with your ministry?

[Str]My regular workweek will mostly be the same, but there are things I am no longer permitted to do. For example, I can no longer baptize, which is huge. I love baptisms. I have a reputation for crying at every baptism. I also can't celebrate Communion, perform weddings or wear a stole, the ceremonial garment that ministers wear.

I hope they're not cutting back your salary.

[Str]They're not, but ordained ministers have certain unusual tax advantages. They don't have to pay income taxes on a housing allowance. And now I will have to pay income tax on my housing allowance.

How much income are we talking about?

[Str]The whole package is $45,000 a year, including the housing allowance.

Is all this the subject of ''The Congregation,'' a documentary film that will be shown on PBS later this month?

[Str]It's not about me in particular. The filmmakers, Susan and Alan Raymond, followed many members of our congregation for 18 months.

It's amazing you have any time left to pray.

[Str]I can pray any time. It could be when I am looking for a parking spot. And I pray just about every morning in a green Ikea armchair in my study at home. I genuinely feel a presence. I feel that God is listening in.

Do you think he wants you to appeal the ruling by the church council? Have you decided what you're going to do about that?

[Str]In my heart, I can't decide. But if I am going to appeal, I won't announce it until after Christmas, because I don't want to do television interviews on Christmas.