BDSM and Impregnation

[Etoile]

Re: Purely a question of gender

We should remember that Etoile purports to pursue a proof of the penis puzzle purely on a Daddy-by-Daddy basis.

I what? Wow, totally not getting that!

What's most important to me is that someone be addressed as they'd like to be addressed. If Pure wants me to say she I'll say she. If Pure prefers he, I'll say he. If Pure doesn't have a preference or doesn't want to dictate anything, then I probably will start using Spivak pronouns, just because I find them a handy device and more human than "it".

 

[the shadow of a boy]

Re: Re: Purely a question of gender

I what? Wow, totally not getting that!

Ooops, sorry. I was pointing out your use of the word 'Daddy' as ambigenderous, and an ambitious alliterative aphasia attacked, altering an amicable annotation and appearing awfully ambiguous and abstract. (From your .sig: "Kindly remember that Daddies may be of any gender.")

Who introduced the pronoun 'hir'? I like it better than saying 'e. When 'e says 'e, 'e sounds like a skinny white kid thinking 'e's a rasta.

 

[Etoile]

Re: Re: Re: Purely a question of gender

Ooops, sorry. I was pointing out your use of the word 'Daddy' as ambigenderous, and an ambitious alliterative aphasia attacked, altering an amicable annotation and appearing awfully ambiguous and abstract. (From your .sig: "Kindly remember that Daddies may be of any gender.")

Who introduced the pronoun 'hir'? I like it better than saying 'e. When 'e says 'e, 'e sounds like a skinny white kid thinking 'e's a rasta.

Heh! I got the alliteration bit, I just wasn't sure what you meant by a "penis puzzle." I don't like "hir" myself because it doesn't lend itself as readily to formations like e, em, eir, emself, eirs...etc. "Hir" is more common in drag king circles from what I've seen. "Zie" is another one. We could go on and on!

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Concerning demands, i never made one of you, the shadow of a boy. You requested an example. i stated one already existed ... someone eating at a level lower than their PYL.

If my style jarred anyone else's sensibilities, i attempt to get to the point. i consider brevity neither dismissive, nor insulting.

Concerning the beliefs of any and all posted in this thread, i accept your choices as long as you accept the consequences.

Thanks again Kittycat for the follow-up threads. They more than satisfied my curiosity concerning "varying opinions on what a child raised in a openly practicing BDSM household could/should hear/see."

 

[Pure]

Hey Angelic-- I like your postings**. No need to get into one of those running voluminous internt tiffs*** with anyone; speak your piece!



**Of course some will argue that is a bad sign.!

*** Or boring discussions of "I have a right to say..." "But I didn't attack your right, only you attacked mine...."

 

[erotic_writer_girl]

teaching kids the 'wrong' words

Okay, let me try to draw a parallel.

Ever since I was much younger, I've had a fantasy about raising a child wrong. I've always wanted to have a child and teach it the wrong nouns while it's learning language. Call a cow a book, call a book a bottle...things like that. Not mess with its language development otherwise, but totally fuck up its use of nouns to see what happens when it gets to school age. (Yeah, I know, I'm weird!)

Would I ever do that? Absolutely not. Not just because I'm not planning to have children, but because it's inappropriate. That doesn't stop me from having the fantasy (which has been with me for many years and continues to this day), though...I can dream about it all I want, but it won't happen.

I don't mean to say that my motivations for language-play fantasy and OSG's motivations for her fantasies are the same...I'm just trying to make a comparison.

(Feel free to call me a sick fuck for this one. It's way out there!)

This made me grin quite happily. In our extended family the young children are taught that the "ice cream truck" is an "ambulance". This might seem a bit weird but is fun too. The 'ambulance travels so slowly along the street so as not to upset the 'patient'.

Well it works for us! No screaming four year olds wanting an ice cream every time that devil drives down our street...

A friend who has two daughters named Kahlia and Tahlia began calling 'cauliflower' 'kahliaflower' to make the food more enticing to their elder daughter and of course 'broccoli' became 'tahliaflower'. Never seen two kids enjoy their vegies any more than these two girls. Now that has got be a good thing.

I also taught my kids quite young to speak 'pig latin'. This is an easy coded language and my kids picked it up easily and now they are in their teens if we are in a public place and they want to tell me something they dont want every one to know they tell me in pig latin. It is a lot of fun.

The kids and I also talk what we call 'ass about' for instance if you want to know if someone wants sugar in their coffee you ask "Did you want some milk?" while showing them the sugar, or when tired at night and wanting to retire they will say "Good morning Mum." It is all in good fun and I have to say my kids are avid readers and writers and enjoy all kinds of word games.

I have experienced other such word exchanges which was a lot of fun for the adults and believe it or not the kids do grow up normal, do eventually learn the real words, and do laugh about their misguided language. Not sure about the effect of total word exchange but as a writer the idea inerests me. (not to the point of ctually doing it but hmmmm worth thinking about!) The codifying effect of having everything called the wrong thing may make an interesting addittion perhaps in a consenting sub/dom relationship.

Happy thoughts I think

EWG

 

[Etoile]

Wow, thanks for posting that info, EWG! I'm glad somebody else finds the idea linguistically exciting. I also agree that it would be an interesting element to add to a D/s relationship.

 

[erotic_writer_girl]

Wow, thanks for posting that info, EWG! I'm glad somebody else finds the idea linguistically exciting. I also agree that it would be an interesting element to add to a D/s relationship.

Etoille.

I am glad you liked the post.

I think it is a very interesting concept to add to any relationship, afterall lovers throughout time have had their own code words, signals and even languages. And there are many twins who develop a language of their own too.

I find the many ways we communicate as human beings to be extra interesting as I have a child who can not speak. (A brain injury in her early months has prevented her from developing speech) Yet she and I have a strong sense of communication. She has even developed a sign which translates to "piss off and leave me alone". Was interesting when her teacher imitated the sign and asked me what it meant.

As a writer and as a mother language and all its little deviations keep me amused and busy!

EWG

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: Cellis

Very elequently stated. Thank you for posting this, it's pretty much what I was thinking too.

The only other thing is, that her last statement *did* make it sound in a way that if she were going to have children it would be in the way that she described, which is -and IMO *should* be- rather disturbing.

A lot of what OSG posts *is* rather disturbing, and this does not come out of dislike for her, but usually from concern. But we do know that she made a choice to live her life this way and so for my part, I try my best to accept even what seems extreme to me.

Involving children certainly goes *beyond* extreme. I think that it would have been much more reasuring if OSG had stated that *even if she did have children* this would remain a fantasy but that the fact that she won't be having other almost gives her even more free reign to imagine it without consequense.

Now, I don't know if that was what she meant or not, and I don't want her to post anything like that just to appease anybody else (I doubt she would) I'm not really sure that I *want* to know exactly what she meant. I'd rather just be free to assume the best, as I see it.

I'd also like to add, that when it comes to matters of protecting chidren, we *do* have a right to be judgemental. When it straddles a line, like OSG's statement between fantasy and *hope* I also believe that we have a right to speak up- even in a free generally non-judgemental forum.

My initial response to OSG's *fantasy* was as outraged as Limbhugger's. The fact that it is a fantasy (and she has stated it as so) is the only thing that checked my fingers.

For me, anything..anything at ALL..that has something to do with children..whether impregnation or any stage after that..is SICK. We who are involved in this lifestyle are ADULTS. The thought of raising my child to BOW to her father or any other person is disgusting to me..for only one reason but it is the biggest reason. It would be a taught, leanrned behaviour..giving my child no real say in their life.

That is what affected me. Like I said, the fact that OSG stated it was a FANTASY made me check my rage and anger..and control my fingers. But i understand exactly why limb hugger responded in that way.

just my humble opinion

pet

 

[sweetnpetite]

I didn't realize that this thread was so many pages. If I've reserected anything that's been handled and moved past- I appologize.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I agree with you cellis, but it also seems more and more people are using BDSM as a cover for other activites which on all the sites I have visited, and all the people in the lifestyle I have met, do not come under the umbrella of BDSM no matter how far the imagination is willing to stretch. Without some speaking out, it can become the dumping ground for all who need a defense.

Catalina

This aught to be engraved somewhere on the front page of this forum. (BTW, I realize that you can't accually engrave something on a webpage, lol ) It can be difficult to know the difference between tollerance and failer to protect someone who needs it. BEing openminded doesn't mean that we should abandon any sence of ethical behavior, especially when dealing with BDSM. The usual standard of 'if it doesn't hurt anyone then keep out' doesn't exaclty apply.

Ps, are there any threads discussing the topic of BDSM ethics? It's a rather fascinating topic, so many shades of grey- and very little is cut and dry.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This aught to be engraved somewhere on the front page of this forum. (BTW, I realize that you can't accually engrave something on a webpage, lol ) It can be difficult to know the difference between tollerance and failer to protect someone who needs it. BEing openminded doesn't mean that we should abandon any sence of ethical behavior, especially when dealing with BDSM. The usual standard of 'if it doesn't hurt anyone then keep out' doesn't exaclty apply.

Ps, are there any threads discussing the topic of BDSM ethics? It's a rather fascinating topic, so many shades of grey- and very little is cut and dry.

Here are a couple of the most recent ethics threads.....

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227468

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230161

Catalina

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: Re: Cellis

Still - I must say one thing that I dislike very much. How can you say that it is SICK that I make the final decision of when she will become pregnant? I feel that it is quite harsh of you to judge someone you don't even know. By our posting here you can see a little of what we stand for, and still you consider what we do to be SICK?

Maybe you should think a little bit before you yell the next time - because you happened to hurt my loved one with your words, and I find that unacceptable. What is SICK about me taking the final decision? What is SICK about me and her wanting to make the impregnation of her a very special occasion? Children are the biggest miracle two people can experience. What is SICK with us, who are consenting adults that want to bring up children in safe and secure place and home, where we want them to feel loved and cherished and without any issues from the lifestyle present?

Well, I'm butting in here, but I kindof agree. Pregnancy as part of a control game, or as part of submision or whatever 1. involves children in your sex life even though it's rather insideous rather than overt. 2. Pregnancy and childbirth are an ongoing thing that can not be stopped with a safeword (assuming you work with one- but even if you don't-) can not be reversed without rather severe consequence to someone other than the two of you. Even a 'permenant relationship' there is always a chance that if it's completly intollerable for one person to end the relationship. Kids are different, and that puts there conception and birth into a different realm.

You said, Children are the biggest miracle to people can experience. You said it yourself, this is a desision that involves *two* people and for one person to take that over completely is really not experienceing it as 'two people' From your post, it sounds like the 'final say' is almost a point of semantics. It's not like you'd actually *force* her to do it against her will (I'm just saying that's how I'm reading it) I would hope that even though you claim that you have final say, she would be able to veto something this important and irriversable. And if not, i don't call that BDSM.

I'm sorry if that offends you, or hurts your submissives feelings, I don't see why it should. It sounds like the two of you trust each other to do the best for each other, your marriage and your family. But that isnt' the case with everyone, and this statement (and the one preceeding it) weren't made toward you alone.

Children can be the biggest miracle to people can experience, as you said- but that doesnt' mean that in every case they are or will be. It's not automatic, and it's certainly no diaper commercial. Motherhood is NOT a good place to be playing mind games. It's a dangerous game. While outwordly appearing to want to please you if this is not something that she wants 100% for herself, I shudder to think what her subconscious mind could be capable of.

BDSM is generally considered to be a dangerous game, (thus the distain for people who don't know what they are doing) but one that adults can handle. AS soon as you bring pregnacy into it in any way shape or form (beyond fantasy) you are bringing innocent children into danger. That is a valid concern.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Every single action you make as an adult in the presence of a child will be noticed and contemplated with the greatest scrutiny by that child. They analyze not just the words you speak but the way you speak them. They study your facial expressions, movements, walk, and even the very atmosphere of their surroundings.

I hate to have to agree here, but this is frighteningly true. And something most parents probably learn the hard way. My daughter knows what's going on with me, half the time before I do. Nearly all parents grossly underestemate their children's awareness.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Uhm OK
Like I said, sport hunting MAYBE
But in a lot of the US there're many people who subsitience hunt
My uncle has 3 kids and lives in a poorer rural part of the US
Every year he pays a few dollars for a hunting license and in a lawful & controlled manner brings down 2 or 3 deer
In doing so, he helps control the population of the herds so you don't end up in a situation like they had in Maryland a few years ago where the deer overpopulated so bad in to urban areas and impeded traffic to the point where they had to bring in military snipers to bring them down in populated areas
He dresses out the deer, sells the hides, and has the meat professionally butchered and then he freezes it
With proper storgae and for far less than shopping, he has enough meat to feed his family for a year
And all without any of the issues or cruelty assosciated with factory farmed meats

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by GodBlessBreasts
I think "ethical" hunting is a lot like "ethically" spanking children on their buttocks ... a labored rationalization/justification for indulging in a sick fetish.

Ok, sorry, I know I am way off this topic, but this pisses me off
And GBB, unless you're a Vegan you should either get off hunters or do some reasearch on how cruelly the animals you eat & use in your every day life are often treated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi James! Nice to see you here, you are an intellegant voice of reason on this thread, and no stranger to the exteme side of BDSM- at least as far as my understanding from these forums goes.

Just like to say, since you were willing to go off-topic on the subject of hunting, I will go ahead and go offtopic on the topic of spanking.

I find in hard to imagine that anyone who actually has children can realisticly say that spanking a child is unethical. While I can understand the objection to it, and prefer that it not be the first or only method of discipline or punishment- there is a huge difference between spanking as a childrearing tool, and hurting a child as abuse. And I'm not even sure how you can compare a choice of discipline to a method of killing- however you stand on either issue.

Sorry for the tangent. (Or was it a tantrum?)

 

[sweetnpetite]

I've never seen a TPE slave who didn't eventually get put in this kind of a hot seat.

"If he told you to jump off a bridge, would you?"

It's a moot point. The slave knows the other person isn't going to ask. It's as likely as me telling M to jump off a bridge or for a parent to tell their child to do it, so why on earth would Mastery lend itself more quickly to homicidal lusts against a loved one?

I honestly don't know why this always plays out this way.

I guess we just want to know if you are making a chioce to submit, or if you are just brainwashed.

I believe that a healthy person should be able to say "No, I would not" and that anyone who said, "Yes, I would" does need to be dragged to a theripist. (openmindedness be damned.)

As stated earlier, BDSM can't just be allowed to become a dumping ground for everytype of behavior. Dangerous cults do exist, and it is not others jobs to "understand their chosen lifestyle" and stand by while they drink poisoned Kool-Aid.

This same type of behavior can happen in a one-on-one relationship as easily as in a group setting. It is out of concern, not judgement that most people will ask this question. If you can honestly say, "No, I would't jump" it would do a lot to put a caring person's mind at ease.

Anybody who continues to tell you how wrong your choices are after that, can reasonably be written off as a busybody, rather than someone who is concerned with your wellbeing.

 

[sweetnpetite]

The question will you have a child and raise it according to your Master’s wishes is irrelevant to osg, the power does not lie with her to agree or disagree with her Master’s wishes. The decision is her Masters and the question should be asked to her Master not osg, the responsibility lies with him not osg.

Francisco.

As a mother, she would have a responsibilty toward her child, and this is even if she were an African slave in Pre-Civil War America or an Islamic woman in the Taliban controlled middle east, a TPE mother in Ohio, or an abused woman in Kentucky.

Parental, and in particular Maternal responsibility is not a matter of lifesytle choice, and cannot be abdicated as such.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Reply to sunfox

sunfox ignores my example of the fundamentalist family raising and grooming daughters for patriarchy. surely she(?) knows this is widespread. are all these families abusive? a lesson white feminists learned in the 60s was that women's view, where women live in other cultures, must be respected.

further, sunfox ignores a host of counterexamples to her contention: we necessarily inculcate obedience to all kinds of things in children, even if there isn't a Yahwist patriarch. from not stealing, to obeying policemen. we don't wait to eighteen and say 'it's your choice.' all religious instruction is also like this.

J.

Pure, you're cracked on this one.

There is a difference between patriarchy and abuse or seing your mother being abused. A child is not capable of understanding that her mother chooses to be hit- and even if she can somehow, there is no healthy way to integrate that information at the age of 4.

As an aside, *most* women who live in these kinds of restrictive culteres do not *choose* to be beaten, to have there child beaten or to have there children see them being beaten. They may accept it, even feel in some way that it is ok, but would still not choose the abuse, if given an actual choice.

In your last example, I think you are creating a false dicotomy of 'all or nothing' Either everythig is ok, or nothing is. And with all due respect, Pure, that is bull. Teaching values about stealing is a whole other ballpark from teaching a value that you deserve to be abused.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I absolutly second every word. Thanks for saying it.

Ok... I am gonna say some things to some different people, and I hope that it is taken in the proper way. I am going to try very hard not to rant as I sometimes do when we broach the subject of children.

First off... Francisco, I have a great deal of respect for you and Catalina, but I absolutely disagree with the statement that you made: "The question will you have a child and raise it according to your Master’s wishes is irrelevant to OSG, the power does not lie with her to agree or disagree with her Master’s wishes. The decision is her Masters and the question should be asked to her Master not OSG, the responsibility lies with him not OSG."

The very large problem that I have with this is that when speaking of children, the responsibility ABSOLUTELY lies with her. It is her womb, her seed, and very definitely her responsibility. If she sees fit to bring a child into the world, slave or not, she has a responsibility to that child. When you speak of true slavery, something not entered into willingly, but a situation where the slave is there by force, she STILL has a responsibility to her child. That responsibility is universal, and anyone who abdicates it has no business giving birth. Period.

On to other points.
Fantasy is just that; fantasy. However, I do have to agree with Limbhugger that if she truly does wish for this to happen in reality, I do believe she needs help. I would feel the same for any person who truly wanted something so certainly destined to hurt someone if it came to pass. At this point, OSG has stated that she knows her fantasy can never come to pass; whatever the reasons, I can only be glad for the unborn child.

As far as her owner raising a child in that situation, I have this to say: OSG, you speak on a regular basis of the pride with which you bear your master's marks, the pleasure you take in a split lip or black eye. Do you think the child blind??? Do you think the sight of violence having been inflicted on your person is pleasing to him/her? What right do you or he have to show that side of your life to a CHILD?

I speak as a formerly abused child myself, and as the child of a mother who liked to play rough games even with men who did not abuse us. The marks on her skin, even when given in the pursuit of mutual pleasure, seemed to me to have been meant for something else. It is only from the distance of years that I realize the difference, and it is still a disturbing image.

That child is going to grow up thinking that it is ok to be beaten, or to beat someone. And while it that may be so in some contexts, where all parties are consensual, there is a very large difference. Quite honestly, I have thought for some time that you need help. From your descriptions of your lifestyle, I firmly believe you live a life of abuse. I have never stated that in all the months I have posted here, because you are a grown woman, and it is your choice to live that life. You will continue to be abused until you either die of it, or you make the choice to see it for what is. However, you have no right to subject a child to that, in any way shape, or form.

As for what Pure said, yes, I do believe that the situation described is abuse. It is mental and emotional abuse, and no, I don't believe it should be tolerated.

Let’s go a little farther; I think the Muslim lifestyle as practiced in far too much of the world is abusive in respect to women.
Anytime the choice is removed, and someone is kept in bondage without knowing any other alternative, it is abuse. If they know a different way exists, and still chose to live that way, so be it.

I chose to live a life that sometimes sees me tied to a bed, hair being pulled, face being slapped, bites being given. That is fine for me, but it absolutely did not happen when my sisters were sleeping down the hall, and the marks were kept in places that they could not see. I make it a point to tell them they don't have to be ashamed of their kink or their fantasies, but I don't make them watch, either.

Edited to add that the other reason I disagree with Fransico's statement is that from the information given here on the board, I really don't see Catalina giving up responsiblilty for her children at any point, slave or not, 24/7 TPE or not. She chose you, and you have beliefs that match hers, but if she had chosen wrongly, and you were not the man that you are, would she stand by while you abused her children and say "Oh, well, I signed my slave contract, and if Master wants to do that, well, I gave up my right to choices." ?

 

[sweetnpetite]

The point, Pure, is that legal responsibilies are beside the point.

A person's respeonsibiliy to protect there child is not meerly a legal one, and to harp on the legal aspect, only weakens your point in this particular forum.

A woman has a responsibiliy, regardless of law, to protect her child. It is also regardless of weather others take care of there responsibility- that's not to say that others don't have any responsibiilty, just that you can' t use someone else shirking theres as an excuse- especially not when it involves children.

Francisco said,

//Since TPE misses all legal aspects we do not consider the law or make it part of our life when it relates to TPE.//

I'm unsure what this means, but regardless of whether you 'consider' the law, or leave it out of your life, IT considers you, and applies to your life.

This attitude is reminiscent of the fellow who jumped out the window, thinking that since he no longer believed in gravity, he would not fall.

//So although your post is of course like always elegantly written it does not contribute to the discussion beyond reminding us that when we enter in a TPE relationship we are not basing it on the law.//

So long as everyone remembers that prosecutions ARE based on the law, your 'power abdication,' 'responsibility transfer,' ''surrender of personal choice," TPE, WTF, and LMAO notwithstanding.

To take the most recent case, one man may say 'kill me', and another may say 'fine' and do it. The second may say he was 'given the right,' had 'valid permission' and even show a videotape of permission being given and of statements that 'the law is not part of our lives.' But the state says the second is criminally responsible, notwithstanding his personal theories and his ideas of the force of private agreements.

It is entirely surprising that you would encourage anyone to believe their personal idea of responsibility and power (and a contract that's virtually null in the eyes of the law) affects their actual responsibilities and legal vulnerabilities.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Note to self adn otherers: I am on page 6 of this discussion, and need to take a break. Sorry if my comments are not up to date. And sorry for taking up so darn much space. Thank you Catalina for the links! BBFN.

 

[Etoile]

IIRC, the thread had actually kind of dropped for several days. Ah well, that horse wasn't quite pulped yet.

 

[sweetnpetite]

IIRC, the thread had actually kind of dropped for several days. Ah well, that horse wasn't quite pulped yet.

I don't know what IIRC stands for- now seems a good time to ask.

 

[Etoile]

I don't know what IIRC stands for- now seems a good time to ask.

If I Recall Correctly

 

[the shadow of a boy]

Eeeee!

BDSM and Impregnation II: Foals of the Zombie Horse