BDSM and misogyny

[Netzach]

http://www.bendweekly.com/Living/6059.html



Actual published article preview: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.10...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=47698962474307

...Yeah, a skeleton fell outta the closet...Note the pocket protector?

Anyway, I've a sneaking suspicion the party foul occured right about the time when our ancestors realized there were birds and bees. Either ridiculous or biology, it's about time the zealots utlize that concordance for the term free will. It's been, what, 2k years or so? Websters would suffice, methinks.

Misogyny?

*scents fear*

That's some interesting data. I think it's interesting to look at the actual diet of some of the H/G cultures we like to romanticize - a lot of protein comes from small animals caught in nets and snares manned by - mostly the kids, actually. Quicker and less jaded. I'd bet money.

I think all generalizations about biological imperative and culture are kind of like trying to decipher dinosaur behavior, when we've only been cooking our food for what, an eighth of our existence as a species or something like that?

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's some interesting data. I think it's interesting to look at the actual diet of some of the H/G cultures we like to romanticize - a lot of protein comes from small animals caught in nets and snares manned by - mostly the kids, actually. Quicker and less jaded. I'd bet money.

I think all generalizations about biological imperative and culture are kind of like trying to decipher dinosaur behavior, when we've only been cooking our food for what, an eighth of our existence as a species or something like that?

Evolutionary psychology is fairytales for for boys, the way Disney Princesses are fairy tales for little girls.

 

[LordMorningwood]

Evolutionary psychology is fairytales for for boys, the way Disney Princesses are fairy tales for little girls.

So true. "Just-so" stories to be precise.

 

[Edith_UK]

Evolutionary psychology is fairytales for for boys, the way Disney Princesses are fairy tales for little girls.

Haha. You have a way of aptly catching the truth

We're all just doin it like they do on the Discovery Channel anyway People who think we've somehow transcended evolution to become 'unnatural' make me laugh. Then again, that whole extrapolation of justifying behaviour as being based of the relative ratio of ball size: polygyny are also wide of the mark.

 

[4bidnfruit]

Speak for yourself, 4bidnfruit. My experience-- and the experience that I try to foster around me, by practice-- is quite opposite that.

Stella~ I seriously meant no insult to you and what you strive to accomplish. I apologize for offending you because that seriously wasn’t my intentions. I probably shouldn’t have made my comment so vague but I was speaking from experience.

I tried to explain some of the circumstances but it turned into babbling. I never considered myself a feminist because to me it was just a matter of survival but I’ve did my time in the trenches (literally as well as figuratively) . It just seems that sometimes women are so busy belittling one another that we have forgotten where we started and apparently, I am no exception to that.

Again, I apologize for demeaning your struggles.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella~ I seriously meant no insult to you and what you strive to accomplish. I apologize for offending you because that seriously wasn’t my intentions. I probably shouldn’t have made my comment so vague but I was speaking from experience.

When we are talking about our experiences, yeah-- it's really useful to say s within the comment. it can alter the tone of a conversation like whoah.

When we are talking theory, or about huge groups of people-- we gotta remember that generalisations do no one any good.

I tried to explain some of the circumstances but it turned into babbling. I never considered myself a feminist because to me it was just a matter of survival but I’ve did my time in the trenches (literally as well as figuratively) . It just seems that sometimes women are so busy belittling one another that we have forgotten where we started and apparently, I am no exception to that.

Again, I apologize for demeaning your struggles.

See -- "Sometimes women are so busy belittling women" is hardly worth saying, it's so vague and unverifiable.

If you say "I have experienced belittling" or "I have belittled women" (if such be the case) then the discussion goes a little bit differently.

Thus sayeth the Semantics Dom.

 

[BiBunny]

Try deciding not to use your womb AT ALL, then see what everyone has to say about you as a human being. Please. If you want to sample the most outrageous comments ever just try saying you don't want children just once upon meeting new people. I promise you entertainment.

Good Lord, yes. Also, saying that you don't want to get married.

 

[Cattypuss]

Try deciding not to use your womb AT ALL, then see what everyone has to say about you as a human being. Please. If you want to sample the most outrageous comments ever just try saying you don't want children just once upon meeting new people. I promise you entertainment.

That's really interesting. Over here in England I have been saying for decades that I don't want children and nobody has ever even raised an eyebrow.

Mind you, this is also a country where you can tell people you are an atheist (something I've also been doing for decades) and it causes no more of a reaction than if you tell them you like sugar in your coffee.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Good Lord, yes. Also, saying that you don't want to get married.

Or that you no longer feel obligated to your husband and (adult) children.

The biggest sin a woman can commit in the eyes of the world is to put her own happiness and welfare ahead of others.

 

[midwestyankee]

That's really interesting. Over here in England I have been saying for decades that I don't want children and nobody has ever even raised an eyebrow.

Mind you, this is also a country where you can tell people you are an atheist (something I've also been doing for decades) and it causes no more of a reaction than if you tell them you like sugar in your coffee.

You like sugar in your coffee? Heresy!

 

[Cattypuss]

You like sugar in your coffee? Heresy!

 

[His_pet_slut]

Thus sayeth the Semantics Dom.

A Semantics Dom? *swoon*

 

[njlauren]

Subgal-

While I fully respect the right of a woman (or man) for that matter to choose the nature of their relationship I also find your words troubling. You don't believe in marital rape? So you believe that when a woman marries a man she is basically signing over her body to him, owned by him? That is what the evangelical wing nuts believe and it is what religious groups argued fighting against the laws that allowed for marital rape, that in effect marriage was an owned relationship. That concept went out the window in the 19th century when marriage began to become a binding of equals (I am talking legally), it wasn't a man possessing his wife. The whole emasculinization of men is right wing claptrap at its worst, I have heard that said about bullying behavior, that that is part of growing up as male, I have heard it leveled by the hard right wing idiots from the bible belt that Title 9 of federal regulations regarding women's sports 'hurt' men's sports, and it is quite frankly a bogus argument because it has no proof, all it is is whining about how men in the good ole days were in their proper place, etc. And even in a D/s relationship, your argument is troublesome, one of the problems is that it can turn into abuse, and you are arguing in effect in an owned relationship you have no rights and that is hogwash it depends on the relationship, and I am sorry, but if your M or any dominant was literally hurting you, if it went beyond medically safe, or they were genuinely torturing you like water boarding or whatever, that is abuse.

As far as marital rape goes, it is quite real. The argument against it was the one the RC and other churches used, that a man had the right to use his wife sexually as he saw fit, when he saw fit, and that again comes back to a wife being property or being unequal legally. When people talk about equality, they are talking legal, not that men and women are the same (they aren't; there are things where men excel, do better generally then women, there are things where women excel, do things better or differently. IMO women are a heck of lot tougher then men, more brave really, for delivering something as big as a bowling ball through an opening that handles something the size of an italian sausage .... When people talk about equality, it is recognizing that men and women have the right to their own dignity, the right to determine their own course of being and the right to be judged fairly, if they can do a job and meet the requirements. The fact that the heads of companies are overwhelmingly men, when the US congress has so few women you can probably count them on your finger and toes when women make up 50% of the population says a lot.

It is also ironic that, for example, that women now are more populous on college campuses then men, we are hearing whining how it must be because men are discriminated against, ironic because those same men when women were denied equal access to college, were saying women were whiners and such, when the reality is women are coming in better prepared to go to college, make the effort, and men no longer have the advantage they once did, where a male with lesser stats then a women would be given preference for admissions....

As far as the original poster goes, looking at female submission as misogyny is kind of like reading the bible the way the fundies do, they read the words literally instead of what the words are trying to say, the spirit (Joseph Campbell said that fundamentalism is like going into a restaurant, seeing steak on the menu, and eating the menu. Misogyny is based on the assumption women are inferior, that they are less deserving then men, have less capability, etc, it is looking on women quite frankly with contempt. Misogyny is something inherent to the Catholic church, with its all male priesthood and leadership, that says women somehow don't have 'what it takes' to lead worship and who point to the work of women in the church and then do something like put a male bishop to 'supervise' those naughty nuns who do great work to help the poor and don't yell and scream about same sex marriage and abortion.

Yes, a D/s with a female sub looks much like a traditional marriage, where the man owns the women, but it isn't. I have known quite a few D/s couples like that and the women are anything but doormats, cowering and waiting to be beaten, and the male dominants respect their subs, in part because they do choose to submit and turn over their wisdom and experience to him, they respect that (are their abusive, misogynistic dominants? Yep, of course). I have met lifestyle female subs who were gifted, accomplished women, including one running a several hundred million dollar company, and they were anything but what you would think, and their husbands though the dominant controlling person was respectful of them, loved them and this is how they chose the dynamics.....

One of the problem with some feminists (and yes, some of them have big problems with BD/SM, one of them was a ADS here in NYC and said openly that BD/SM was abuse, that you could never consent to that kind of activity.....which I suspect led to her being basically told to resign) is they see the image of a D/s and assume that image is the reality, they see the very real crap women are handed, have been and assume this is more of the same, and it isn't for the most part

 

[laceNlthrgrrl]

I've not read the other replies so apologise for possible redundancies.

I think that there are a lot of "doms" out there calling themselves such in the same way that one might call a horse a zebra.

The sand in the vaseline, though, is that some subs enjoy the contradiction.

An example, perhaps. One might agree with the notion that a "good" Dominant is caring and nurturing of their submissive, helping them to thrive and grow in a stern but cherished environment. This simply won't gel for a sub who thrives on degradation and humiliation. From the outside, that humiliation thing might appear to be misogynistic, and yet the femsub glories in it.

Things aren't always what they might appear to be.

There are still some scummy pricks out there, though.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm going to paraphrase something someone said in another part of the internet:

He said that he and his ex were a typical love-dovey couple during the week, but on the weekends she would become the abusive Domme and "abuse" him by making everything he did wrong, and punishing him for every "mistake" he made. He says that he would cry at the injustice of it all... And they did this for years. He calls it a "consensual-nonconsent-abuse-play."

And I hate to say how hot his description got me!

 

[sweetmoonbeam]

I don’t believe isn’t just the media. Working women all across America look down on women that stay home to take care of their children and there are women that look down on women for working. We are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. If we work, we are abandoning our children and if we don’t than we are stupid for not looking out for our future.

Everyone that has lived more than a few years has their own life experiences and wants to tell everyone how to do it the right way. Women beat each other down as they claim to be fighting for them. Most of the female population is misogyny. We don't need any help from men to destroy us any more than we need help to provide. perhaps that is the true meaning of feminism.

Wow, maybe the South is just a really different place, but I don't know any women that look down on those that choose to stay home and raise their children. They may upon occasion gaze longingly at them, but then they tend to realize that they are where they want to be.

I belong to several professional women's organizations, some feminist oriented organizations and an equality center in my modest sized university town, and the overriding commonality is a warm, nurturing spirit for one another.

This isn't a Southern thing. This really is going on. If your experience is happy and supportive, then I'm happy for you. Honestly. But the most frightening thing going on that I see in this generation of mothers is the extent to which they simply aren't allowed to say what is really going on - what they are really experiencing - because it doesn't fit the ideal of what the post-60s world was supposed to be. In fact, this post is a great example. It's only a matter of time before someone posts a retort after it telling me in a snide, thinly-veiled, regionalist or generationalist, or some other belittling way that I am wrong, this isn't my experience, and I'm simply a shitty mother or an inadequate thinker for even mentioning it. I bet that person will be a woman. When it comes to parenting, frankly, I would rather talk to men. This is just my experience.

The way this relates to BDSM is that what RedButterflySlut said in post #6 is absolutely true, "society expects women to fulfill all roles at once, or else she's flawed in some way." Women, in general, are pushed to the brink and beyond right now. Perhaps not you, but quite a good many, especially mothers. They would organize a movement if they could, or a support group or something to fight against it. But, honestly, nobody has time, no one would listen, and I don't think anyone who hasn't experienced it could possibly ever understand anyway. However, there is some meager data suggesting an increase in suicides amongst women in recent years as a result. In my own life, one jumped off a bridge, another tried with pills. One was a stay-at-home-mother. The other was a corporate lawyer.

Personally, that hasn't been my experience. I haven't been quite that far to the brink. But, I get it. I have fantastic dreams at night about a giant coming to pick me up and carry me away. And I love it! If he wants to tie me up and have his way with me, I am totally okay with that. I submit entirely. I just need a break. Really really badly. These are things that absolutely nobody in my good feminist upbringing would ever expect to hear. It's so simple, it sounds dumb, but I think women who have had to be unimaginably strong - like military-strength strong - for a very long time eventually just want to be picked up and carried away. And that's when some turn towards BDSM. Or, at least, that's when I did.

If I had the time, I would do two things:
1. Sleep, so I could have that dream about the giant more often.
2. Collect data from the posts in this thread, run an analysis, and write an earth-shattering article about it. It really is fascinating, and I truly do appreciate all that has been said.

 

[His_pet_slut]

Sweetmoonbeam,
I have nowhere enough caffeine in my system to fully respond yet, I just wanted to let you know how sorry I am that your experience is this way. As a mother and a grandmother it makes me very sad.

I did want to clarify that I meant I live in the Southern US and was basing my statements on my community, my friends and acquaintances in the varied women's networks I am associated with and the experiences my daughters and daughter in law as they have families.

 

[Edith_UK]

Great post sweetmoonbeam. And yer, I hear ya.

My parents generation right, baby boomers, they could pay the rent on one income. They had some, genuine, social mobility. First generation with secure NHS healthcare, and a flood of decent social housing in the form of 'homes for Heros'.

Then the way I see it, the feminist movement began to win some battles. But instead of this winning *more* freedom for women, we allowed capitalism to fuck us over and demand two salaries to survive.

I mean working class women have always worked, now even more and often two salaries ain't enough. Now middle class women have to. There is no choice, and that breaks some womens hearts, cos it's us juggling the job of raising children AND working and looking after the house. And that guilt... it's a killer.

So yer. I get you. And I relate to how it fits in with your Giant (cute image). I really do.

 

[Licia]

My cousin (29) has not married or had children, and she really has no interest in either. The extended family seems to think since she is missing the corner piece of the puzzle which is a woman's life. Our conversations are thoroughly enjoyable, and when this subject arises my shared thoughts always follow: "Bullshit. If you ever change your mind about marriage and kids, don't do it because you've been told it's what your life is supposed to be like. Marry for one reason and one reason only--love."

We discuss what we've witnessed in our parents'/grandparents' marriages and divorces and the local penchant for tradition. If tradition is mysogyny, the overwhelming conclusion for this mountaintop show it not only an unsuccessful practice, but also poison for society.

But the most frightening thing going on that I see in this generation of mothers is the extent to which they simply aren't allowed to say what is really going on - what they are really experiencing - because it doesn't fit the ideal of what the post-60s world was supposed to be.

Which is exactly why we will do girls nights, and not all the hubbies appreciate them. Mine hated those nights at first because he figured I wasn't getting what I needed/wanted at home or that I would find someone else. Quite simply I told him, "If I *want* to find someone else, I will. There's nothing you can *do* about that. As for the girls? We need each other because our society isn't set up in such a way that our discussions would be safe and comfortable for the other girls to be had openly."

The fist two parts of the above converstation are relative to the nature of our private relationship. The last two are one way in which the girls and I "work" to improve our society, regardless of size.

 

[Edith_UK]

Yer girl mates are

 

[Licia]

Yer girl mates are

Thanks, Edith. I love 'em like they're my blood.

 

[bailadora]

I just wanted to delurk for a moment to say how much I've enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

This isn't a Southern thing. This really is going on. If your experience is happy and supportive, then I'm happy for you. Honestly. But the most frightening thing going on that I see in this generation of mothers is the extent to which they simply aren't allowed to say what is really going on - what they are really experiencing - because it doesn't fit the ideal of what the post-60s world was supposed to be.

Boy, can I relate to this. I quit the parenting forum I was a part of because so many women there couldn't resist passing judgement on someone else's parenting practices. Besides the whole bottle vs breastfeeding debate, the work vs stay at home thing was one sure way to fan the flames. It didn't matter what choice you made, there was always someone around to tell you were a blithering idiot. When I left, I remember thinking, "FFS - we're all parents here. Why the fuck can't we just be supportive of one another?"

 

[slut_kitten]

http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2008/07/kink_101

One of the best feminist articles I've read on this.

 

[sereneone4u]

This isn't a Southern thing. This really is going on. If your experience is happy and supportive, then I'm happy for you. Honestly. But the most frightening thing going on that I see in this generation of mothers is the extent to which they simply aren't allowed to say what is really going on - what they are really experiencing - because it doesn't fit the ideal of what the post-60s world was supposed to be. In fact, this post is a great example. It's only a matter of time before someone posts a retort after it telling me in a snide, thinly-veiled, regionalist or generationalist, or some other belittling way that I am wrong, this isn't my experience, and I'm simply a shitty mother or an inadequate thinker for even mentioning it. I bet that person will be a woman. When it comes to parenting, frankly, I would rather talk to men. This is just my experience.

The way this relates to BDSM is that what RedButterflySlut said in post #6 is absolutely true, "society expects women to fulfill all roles at once, or else she's flawed in some way." Women, in general, are pushed to the brink and beyond right now. Perhaps not you, but quite a good many, especially mothers. They would organize a movement if they could, or a support group or something to fight against it. But, honestly, nobody has time, no one would listen, and I don't think anyone who hasn't experienced it could possibly ever understand anyway. However, there is some meager data suggesting an increase in suicides amongst women in recent years as a result. In my own life, one jumped off a bridge, another tried with pills. One was a stay-at-home-mother. The other was a corporate lawyer.

Personally, that hasn't been my experience. I haven't been quite that far to the brink. But, I get it. I have fantastic dreams at night about a giant coming to pick me up and carry me away. And I love it! If he wants to tie me up and have his way with me, I am totally okay with that. I submit entirely. I just need a break. Really really badly. These are things that absolutely nobody in my good feminist upbringing would ever expect to hear. It's so simple, it sounds dumb, but I think women who have had to be unimaginably strong - like military-strength strong - for a very long time eventually just want to be picked up and carried away. And that's when some turn towards BDSM. Or, at least, that's when I did.

If I had the time, I would do two things:
1. Sleep, so I could have that dream about the giant more often.
2. Collect data from the posts in this thread, run an analysis, and write an earth-shattering article about it. It really is fascinating, and I truly do appreciate all that has been said.

No snide retort here. I could have written your post myself.

 

[rinka]

Haven't been around much, so caught this thread today. Lots of interesting stuff.

A few thoughts:

The world is misogynistic.

I can't see why BDSM would be more so however. Actually if done right it could be quite the opposite. By done right in this context I mean that people in relationships negotiate about power dynamics and expressions. In any romantic or domestic or partnership relation of any kind there are so many areas of power - by laying them on the table and making conscious choices we can at least theoretically be a little more aware of what's going on. Communicating about needs, wants and defining the nature and the specifics of the relationships.

But let's face it, kinky people are just as lazy and influenced by stereotypes as - well, people. And just as likely to buy a readymade concept of D/s roles. And of course posers, emotionally challenged individuals and what not can be attracted to the convenience of having a willing slave to abuse.

Some BDSM practices and expressions do however reflect and magnify traditional gender roles and the patriarchal structures.

That is troublesome. For me. Wanting it and hating it at the same time.

Edith, I love how you bring in class and a more collective perspective to this discussion.

I started a thread relating to this topic a while ago, if you want to check it out.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=616267