BDSM and misogyny

[rinka]

Since this thread has wandered into the staying at home with kids or not territory...

Men are parents too.

For me as a feminist the issue isn't whether or not women should stay at home, work or not have kids at all. It's that men should be asked the same questions and be expected to take as much responsibility.

So next time a man around you is expecting a baby ask him if he will keep working or stay at home.

 

[midwestyankee]

Since this thread has wandered into the staying at home with kids or not territory...

Men are parents too.

For me as a feminist the issue isn't whether or not women should stay at home, work or not have kids at all. It's that men should be asked the same questions and be expected to take as much responsibility.

So next time a man around you is expecting a baby ask him if he will keep working or stay at home.

I trust you aren't holding your breath for this to come true.

 

[rinka]

I trust you aren't holding your breath for this to come true.

It's a work in progress. But we're on the way here in Sweden. Both parents get an equal amount of parental leave and dads are encouraged to use it.

Still not all men do, but more and more. And at least they have to make a choice.

 

[Scotsman69]

I empathise with you. Bairns first, always.

 

[Netzach]

It's a work in progress. But we're on the way here in Sweden. Both parents get an equal amount of parental leave and dads are encouraged to use it.

Still not all men do, but more and more. And at least they have to make a choice.

I know that more fathers are doing the stay at home thing here, too, not in droves but in significant numbers, significant enough that they're finding one another on the internet and feeling less like freaks.

I know who's got more domestic aptitude around here, and it's not me. The nice thing about being gender refugees is that we don't care even if everyone else did.

The ONLY time I ever thought that parenthood MIGHT work for me was a fleeting moment envisioning myself as the non-carrying partner of a woman.

 

[unknooown]

A couple that are good friends of mine and my wife's -- and actually the only other BDSM couple we know well -- have a really interesting dynamic.

The husband is the dominant and the wife his submissive -- they have two young children, I think both are under four. They both worked before they had children and after their first they had a long talk about whether it was worth it to do daycare or get a nanny or what. She illustrates childrens books as well as doing freelance illustration work and makes more than double what he made as a high school teacher, so he quit and is now a full time stay at home dad. And he loves it and he's great at it.

When we're over at their place, the kids' go-to is their dad. He's the one that's home all day with them, so when they get hurt or upset or want to ask permission for something (only the girl is old enough to talk but you know what I mean) it's always "DAD!" And I like to think I would do what he does and just suck it up and go attend to them -- and I guess if they're your own kids it's not exactly sucking it up because you actually love them -- but I don't know, I know myself and I like power enough that, once home, it would be my wife's responsibility. But that's not the point. The point is, when it comes to the kids, the husband is the main caregiver, but for everything else they have very traditional gender roles. I think it's awesome, frankly. And he has absolutely no issue with telling people he's a stay at home dad, even though sometimes they're taken aback. Dude is 6'3" and probably nearing 200lbs, the last person you would expect.

Anyway as a male dominant and notorious misogynist I actually think their relationship/dynamic is really cool

 

[desertslave]

When we're over at their place, the kids' go-to is their dad. He's the one that's home all day with them, so when they get hurt or upset or want to ask permission for something (only the girl is old enough to talk but you know what I mean) it's always "DAD!" And I like to think I would do what he does and just suck it up and go attend to them -- and I guess if they're your own kids it's not exactly sucking it up because you actually love them -- but I don't know, I know myself and I like power enough that, once home, it would be my wife's responsibility. But that's not the point. The point is, when it comes to the kids, the husband is the main caregiver, but for everything else they have very traditional gender roles. I think it's awesome, frankly. And he has absolutely no issue with telling people he's a stay at home dad, even though sometimes they're taken aback. Dude is 6'3" and probably nearing 200lbs, the last person you would expect.

I was the wife in a similar situation. I hated every minute of it. My ex and I lived vanilla, and he was a wart who lost a job and gave up trying to find anything else. I had mad skills so I went back to work when our son was only 9 months old (we had initially agreed that I would be a working SAHM until the kids started school). He became the go-to person as you describe. It HURT in ways I can't even describe. I was pushed out of the loop in terms of contact with the kids, knowing who their friends were in any sense beyond names and sometimes faces, being involved in school functions, etc. I was seething with resentment, to be brutally honest. It was one of the big cracks that ultimately drove us apart.

The point (there really is one, beyond my whining) is that it can be great, WHEN it's mutually agreeable. Or it can suck. And it can be hard to read from the outside, too. All of our friends thought we had a cool arrangement and thought he was so nice, when there was serious turbulence beneath the surface.

Now, back to the original thought. I think there's definitely a degree of misogyny among some dominants. However, they tend not to keep a sub (or a relationship) for very long. I believe that the best, and most successful dominants truly, intensely love women. They also love control, but they understand that their needs and those of their sub need to match well in order to succeed. They have to want to give, on several levels, in order to receive. I don't think the misogynistic doms ever give that consideration.

 

[njlauren]

Oh you're just a nutter. Fair enough Rights are not an innate human characteristic. They are 'given' by the ruling elite when normal people fight with force, collectively, to gain and defend them. Look at womens rights, you think that shit was just handed over? No, there was collective suffrage. You said it yourself, your not interested in freedom of the working class or women. Just the selfish 'freedom' of White middle class men to act how they choose. That ain't freedom, it's just stomping your feet cos other people won't let you do *exactly* what you want

Rights are generally won on the barricades, as you point out, very few things happen by osmosis. However, I don't think the ruling elite 'gives rights', that was the idea that for centuries was promoted by the church and by the ruling nobility, that rights somehow came from them, whatever they chose to give. What changed all that happened during the enlightenment with theory, when people like Rousseau, Hobbes and Locke started questioning that, and it was that basic idea that led to fighting for those rights, the idea that rights were part of being human, not granted by the state but rather were our birthright as human beings.
And yes, it usually does take a collective effort, things like suffrage came about because of collective action, as did rights of workers through collectivization (if I have one more young dingo head tell me that paid vacations, working 5 days and the 8 hour day came from industry because they felt it was more efficient I'll puke on their yuppie wear).

He isn't quite the nutter, though, because the power of collectivization is also its downside, that collectivization often leads to abuses as well. The French Revolution was a pretty good example of that, or the Russian Revolution, where ostensibly to collectively fix the abuses that went before they created one that was as bad or often worse. There was a downside to women's suffrage in the US, there is a direct line between women's suffrage and the advent of prohibition, for example (women were granted the right to vote federally after the volstead act became the 18th amendment; but by that time, a lot of states had granted women the right to vote, and it was key in getting dry candidates into congress and also into getting the amendment ratified in the states). The problem is when the collective isn't checked and they start deciding what rights people have or don't have, as with the Jacobins becoming a new version of the ruling Bourbons. In reality when it comes to power and rights, there is always that teeter totter between the rights of the individual versus the needs of the collective, and it isn't always an easy thing to live with; while those who claim personal freedom is the be all and end all, as you point out, can't fathom that for more then a few people all that individual freedom is fine and dandy, but that doesn't get their kids fed, it doesn't get their kid an education and the like, either. One of the ironies is that the anarchists of the 19th century or their 20th and 21st century counterparts, who are all for tearing down institutions and so forth, often come from well off backgrounds and while championing the 'rights of the oppressed classes' and the like, don't have a clue as to the real struggle those people face.

 

[KoPilot]

The funny thing about "mysogyny in the bedroom" is that it's never really happy just staying in the bedroom is it? Also, not the right word to use if it's compartmentalized like that. It kind of means "women-hating". As in... women in general.

i am not a feminist. but i strongly believe in a single/unowned woman's right to independence and freedom of choice and power over self.

Really, osg? Really? Fuck right off.

I have a right to personal agency and freedom of choice from the day I become a legal adult to the day I die, regardless of my fucking marital status, blood type, or whatever other descriptor that reinforces your warped, gender-essentialist worldview.

Man, shit makes me long for a world where there was no such thing as socially-constructed gender and the associated "roles". But that would freak out almost everybody because we rely so heavily on what we're told we're supposed to be doing or what we are, that we can't possibly conceive of choosing for ourselves instead of being conditioned and coerced into it since the very first time a doctor checked off F or M on our charts.

Here's to hoping that your handler doesn't let your vote.

Not meaning to be harsh here, but what will you do if your owner/spouse has say a massive stroke and is no longer capable of taking care of these details? Say he is so brain damaged he cannot drive, or know what he is signing. Will you be capable of stepping up to the plate and taking care of these things? Will you be able to get credit on your own if you are facing having to do all these things as you make preparations to put him in a nursing home, despite the fact he is only 59 because you can no longer leave him alone during the day while you go to work because he might burn the house down? My marriage is not D/s, it was based on equality and was very open...and this is what my current reality is. Did we plan on it? Of course not, but it is a damn good thing I know how to care for myself out in the world as well as make the decisions that need to be made for him as he is now dying and lacks the cognitive ability to make the decisions himself.

Yeah, I am a feminist. I am a wife, a mother and a grandmother. I do the work, I deserve the same pay. End of story.

No, because he is Man and will never grow old, or lame, or wake up one morning and not recognize who she is or will go to hit her only to find that he is no longer capable of making a fist.

Try deciding not to use your womb AT ALL, then see what everyone has to say about you as a human being. Please. If you want to sample the most outrageous comments ever just try saying you don't want children just once upon meeting new people. I promise you entertainment.

This this this.

this.

Not even my radfem aunt can get over me not ever wanting to use my Natural Womanly Bits for their Natural Purpose. As in, I'm predicting that I would get major major gender dysphoria if I ever found myself with a pregnant body, and wind up projecting my resentment onto the kid after it was born. Seriously, I would be more OK with my cis husband being pregnant than me. When I go around telling people that I wish that my surgeon had just gone and done a hysterectomy on me when they went in to get rid of my endometriosis, I get the most awkward laughs. The conversation always ends with them saying "Don't make up your mind now, you never know" and me responding with a thousand-mile stare: "You never know" really just fucking translates to "I know better than you about what you want".

I trust you aren't holding your breath for this to come true.

No, but it doesn't mean it's too disheartening a goal to make progress on.

 

[unknooown]

I don't want to argue with you because frankly I don't know if I'm informed enough, but I consider myself both a feminist and a misogynist. I'm a feminist in that I believe women deserve all the rights -- every single one -- that a men do/have. I believe women are mentally/emotionally/intellectually equal to men. But I personally am aroused at the thought or the action of dominating a woman physically, of forcing a woman into sex, of humiliating her, of hurting her physically. Do I do that to random women on the street? No. Luckily I found a woman, my wife, that wants just those things.

My wife is also a feminist (and a much more informed one than I). She and I have discussed women's rights at length -- and there's one thing I've heard her say a few times that has really stuck with me: sometimes when a woman declares herself a feminist she immediately feels obligated to add "except I shave" (or something along those lines). This angers my wife to an incredible degree and it didn't bother me at first, because I suppose I hadn't really thought about the implications, but now it really does. That alone makes me feel disgusted at how things are.

Oh but as for inside/outside of the bedroom. My wife cooks, cleans, works part time so she can take care of the house, and has to ask for my permission for a number of things. But she does it because it makes her panties wet and my dick hard. Not at the moment obviously because nobody likes doing dishes. I don't give a shit if she buys a new vacuum. But she has certain responsibilities (and so do I) and we realize they aren't what you'd expect from an independent/informed/strong woman and her partner. But it's what she wants and it's what I want. So yeah sometimes I want to (and do) backhand her for saying no to me, but is it misogyny if she wants it too?

 

[unknooown]

I'm trashed I don't evenknow if I'm reading anything in this thread correctly

 

[BiBunny]

*snip*

but is it misogyny if she wants it too?

I say no, it isn't. But even if it were, who cares?

 

[Stella_Omega]

But I personally am aroused at the thought or the action of dominating a woman physically, of forcing a woman into sex, of humiliating her, of hurting her physically.

You're a sadist, not a misogynist. Very different things. Very different thought processes. Very different motives.

 

[JustaSCOUNDREL]

Since this thread has wandered into the staying at home with kids or not territory...

Men are parents too.

For me as a feminist the issue isn't whether or not women should stay at home, work or not have kids at all. It's that men should be asked the same questions and be expected to take as much responsibility.

So next time a man around you is expecting a baby ask him if he will keep working or stay at home.

Just a bit of real life in my reply.

In the U.S. on average a women makes 67% of what a man makes. I have no desire to get in a urination contest as to the whys or wherefores of that fact.

So to rephrase the question. How many women would be willing to take a 33% or more reduction in their standard of living so daddy can stay home and take care of the child/children?

I am aware that there are cases where the woman makes more than her husband and in these cases daddy staying home may make more sense fiscally for the family, but I'm pretty sure those cases are uncommon.

M

 

[desertslave]

But it's what she wants and it's what I want. So yeah sometimes I want to (and do) backhand her for saying no to me, but is it misogyny if she wants it too?

IMO this is the absolute, ultimate point of feminism. Your wife made the conscious choice to submit herself to you, to live with this dynamic. I don't believe that the goal of feminism is to function the same as men, but to have the power to make choices in the same way that men do: whether to choose a career and be single, whether to have a child-free marriage, whether to have a passle of kids with a partner or even on her own; whether to have an absolutely equal relationship, a female dominant OR a female-submissive relationship--or something in between, sometimes but not others.

The whole point is being able to freely make all those choices. The ideal is to be able to do so and not have Society bat an eyelash at any of them.

 

[Kurokami]

is it misogyny if she wants it too?

I'm by no means an expert on these things, but in my head it's not misogyny if she enjoys it, and you're not doing it spitefully. I can call the women in my life the most filthy, terrible things I can think of, but what matters is motive: I do it because it gets them wet, and gets me off for good measure. I can call my wife a filthy fucking slut, but she knows that once we're out of playtime I'll be back to treating her like a woman I love. That's just sadism, it's not outright hateful. If for whatever reason she stops enjoying it... well, she knows the safeword.

 

[Kurokami]

Since this thread has wandered into the staying at home with kids or not territory...

Men are parents too.

For me as a feminist the issue isn't whether or not women should stay at home, work or not have kids at all. It's that men should be asked the same questions and be expected to take as much responsibility.

So next time a man around you is expecting a baby ask him if he will keep working or stay at home.

This.

See, the thing is... I don't really get why more men wouldn't want to stay at home with their kids. My daughters are awesome. Yeah, it's an incredible hassle having to take care of them, but it's also one of the more fulfilling things I've ever done with my life, and far more stimulating than being stuck in an office all day. I'd much rather be looking after my babies, because there's about a hundred percent more baby smiles (which are seriously the best thing ever) to be found in doing so.

Having said that, I am fortunate enough to be able to work from home enough that neither I nor my wife have had to completely give up working, and we've got a third person bringing in a paycheck... But I never said I wasn't totally lucky.

 

[KoPilot]

is it misogyny if she wants it too?

No? You can't genuinely hate half the population while in the bedroom for the purpose of sexyfuntiems and then stop when you step out your door.

Can we please give these people another word to use in reference to men dominating women during scenes/in personal dynamics? It's seriously as silly as thinking it's possible to be a republican with your wife and a democrat in the voting booth and everywhere else. I guess unless you get off on being called a republican in bed or something. Still, it doesn't actually make you one.

 

[Stella_Omega]

No? You can't genuinely hate half the population while in the bedroom for the purpose of sexyfuntiems and then stop when you step out your door.

Can we please give these people another word to use in reference to men dominating women during scenes/in personal dynamics?

yeah, there are some words: Dominant, top, sadist. Hetero.

Just like everything else, someone can be these things-- all of them or one of them-- AND not be a misogynist. Equally, of course, they CAN be a misogynist while being one or all of those things.

Fuck, it's like a building being a house -- or a school. AND ALSO be painted red -- or blue. AND ALSO I dunno... having a chimney. Or not.

 

[desertslave]

No? You can't genuinely hate half the population while in the bedroom for the purpose of sexyfuntiems and then stop when you step out your door.

I don't see where hatred enters into it at all. Master does what he chooses, to me, because he wants and needs it and I do too. It's the most intense act of love, IMO, to be able to feed ourselves and each other in such an intimate way.

The worst struggle I ever had in my life was learning to shed what society thought I should be so that I could follow MY heart and my submissive needs. Throughout my quest, I never experienced hatred from within the lifestyle. It's the outsiders, who can't or won't understand, who dispense the hatred.

I have to wonder, where do female Dominants register in this discussion? Are they haters of men? Should there be an outcry about this perceived injustice? Or is it okay because they're probably just trying to get even.

 

[eastern sun]

Since this thread has wandered into the staying at home with kids or not territory...

Men are parents too.

For me as a feminist the issue isn't whether or not women should stay at home, work or not have kids at all. It's that men should be asked the same questions and be expected to take as much responsibility.

So next time a man around you is expecting a baby ask him if he will keep working or stay at home.

We have a long way to go.

The discussions I've been involved in lately revolve around whether polygamy is a kinder circumstance for both the women and the children than serial divorces. Discussions that fortunately include women who have experienced each circumstance.

 

[Netzach]

I don't see where hatred enters into it at all. Master does what he chooses, to me, because he wants and needs it and I do too. It's the most intense act of love, IMO, to be able to feed ourselves and each other in such an intimate way.

The worst struggle I ever had in my life was learning to shed what society thought I should be so that I could follow MY heart and my submissive needs. Throughout my quest, I never experienced hatred from within the lifestyle. It's the outsiders, who can't or won't understand, who dispense the hatred.

I have to wonder, where do female Dominants register in this discussion? Are they haters of men? Should there be an outcry about this perceived injustice? Or is it okay because they're probably just trying to get even.

Seriously?

M/f is like having a fetish for breathing air.


I have a lot of trouble categorizing this alternative as an alternative.

It's reinforced the minute you pop out of the womb that boys are on top, girls are there to smile and be sweet.

I'm not buying this idea that the hegemony of equality has been soooooo successful that M/f is really that outlaw.

 

[Netzach]

I think the transgression with M/f pairings isn't one of "you're not supposed to want that" but "you're not supposed to want that loudly enough that I hear about it."

We could argue about whether "keep it behind closed doors" is adequate sexuality freedom or not, I guess. But honestly, nobody I ever worked with in vanilla contexts suspected that I was a sexual dominant. I didn't feed into those discussions about sex, and I didn't do those knowing laughs about men behaving badly like 15 yo twits, because mine don't.

They probably thought I was a prude.

I don't understand where this chorus of disapproval comes from in regard to people's private lives. It's not like your partner is showing up with the wrong genitals, which you can't hide.

You actually had to fight some social engineering to enjoy sex on your terms? Welcome to 2012. Unless you have sex with however many point however many middle class metrosexuals while buying the right products and having had surgery on the following parts, following a set of rules and sexting protocols as established by the lowest common denominator of the mainstream, nobody is cheerleading your sexy.

I think it is misogynistic to expect women who don't share your proclivities for being bound gagged and bossed around to listen to the details and relate

They have every right to be appalled. Or triggered. Or bored.

I certainly never expect anyone to do so when it comes to my life. The demographics don't support the overshare. I'll talk on my own turf.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The chorus of disapproval comes when someone talks about their sex life non-consensually.

Each group has established boundaries to the dirty talk. If your girlfriends can giggle about the relative size of their boyfriend's dicks, that does not mean they can giggle about the way your boyfriend slapped you around last night. It's apples and oranges. Get over it. If you need to share that information, make kinky friends.

 

[desertslave]

Seriously?

M/f is like having a fetish for breathing air.


I have a lot of trouble categorizing this alternative as an alternative.

It's reinforced the minute you pop out of the womb that boys are on top, girls are there to smile and be sweet.

I'm not buying this idea that the hegemony of equality has been soooooo successful that M/f is really that outlaw.

It's an alternative when you grow up surrounded by strident feminism. I'm a child of the late 60s/early 70s. Most adult or near-adult women under whose influence I was raised were horrified when I wanted to choose being a wife and mother over crashing through some designated glass ceiling. My lack of desire to live my life as some kind of political statement offended almost all of them.

They felt (I was told) that I was throwing everything that they were working for in their faces. I felt that, by taking advantage of my opportunity to choose, that I was absolutely exerting my rights, as a human being, to pursue a life that would bring me happiness. <shrug>