BDSM, is it Cultural?

[YourCaptor]

Jesus, I hope no one really thought my musings on Jewish kink were racist. I'm Jewish myself and all of my major experiences with humor amongst my family were mainly based on making fun of ourselves. I completely truly and in all seriousness had no idea that Hasid was a slur, so I hope I didn't offend anyone.




Now we can alllll get back to talkin' about the serious stuff. Like Dom Fights.

Nobody was really racist yet, I know that you mean this as humor, every culture does it about themselves. But things are teetering on the edge, and I would rather not have it their.

So, yes, lets get back to the important stuff. I’m up for a fight, not over anything, but as sport.

Yes, lets get back to this.

So, are they going to fight naked? In mud? Jell-O?

Or are we thinking something more along the lines of classic boxing? Shorts, gloves, no shirts, in a ring?

Or sumo-like? Maybe Shank could lend them some thongs?

What says you?

I say, ridiculously high platform with spikes on the ground around it, + a cage of fire, + lions and sharks in the cage. Oh, and lots of naked, adoring fans. And of course there has to be a prize, I mean, and of course somebody has to be the prize.

I've been served papers before. Very unpleasant process, even if she does look hot in the uniform.

----------





Um, no. We're getting along fine. Sorry, ladies. No dom fights.

DB, I am not your fighting monkey.

Sure we're getting along, but that makes a fight even more fun.

I definitely think a naked Jello-O wrestling Dom Fight match is in order.


....MORTAL KOMBAT!!!


(Fight!)



(Finish him!)

Eh Hem

I believe it goes,
(Fight!)
(Finish him!)
(You Win!)
(Flawless Victory!)
(Fatality!)


Plays "Techno Syndrome" by the Immortals

This song is definitely Rave

Hm, I never thought about the outsider aspect and the intensity. But you are completely right.

Now every time one of my relatives absolutely INSISTS that I eat something, pushes me into a chair, and places a large plate of some type of organ meat in front of me and I eat it (even though I'm not at all hungry, and organ meat is cringe-worthy), I'll probably find myself considering all this perhaps lending to my kinky ways, which will in turn lead me to think about something completely inappropriate to think about in front of family.

Great.

I happen to like organ meat. Gizzards, yum!

Teutonic EBM and Pocky. That's about the extent of it.

------



I'm going to be mentally walking funny for a week. At least there was rope involved. That's some small consolation...

Teutonic EBM What kind of obscure sub genre is that?

 

[Homburg]

So, yes, lets get back to the important stuff. I’m up for a fight, not over anything, but as sport.

Sure we're getting along, but that makes a fight even more fun.

Yeah, it does, actually. Best matches I've had were against guys I considered close friends. Hell, the only person I've really opened up on was one of my best friends. We beat the bloody dickens out of each other, literally. Good stuff.

Plays "Techno Syndrome" by the Immortals

Hell yes. I was listening to this track earlier today.

Teutonic EBM What kind of obscure sub genre is that?

Teutonic just being used to refer to things Germanic and militant. EBM being Electronic Body Music.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I'm going to be mentally walking funny for a week. At least there was rope involved. That's some small consolation...

Dude, you *so* don't want to know what ITW has in mind for the rope. You wouldn't be the same man anymore after hearing about it.

 

[00Syd]

Eh Hem

I believe it goes,
(Fight!)
(Finish him!)
(You Win!)
(Flawless Victory!)
(Fatality!)


Plays "Techno Syndrome" by the Immortals

This song is definitely Rave

I know how it goes! I just didn't finish the song because I did want to. So there. *sticks my tongue out at you*

 

[unfoundiamond]

I do think some cultures have alot to do with conditioning people into the power exchange, like muslim women seem forced into their submission or traditional spanish homes where the (usually but not always) husband is served and catered to both culturally pushed roles seem like unspoked suggestion to/of a power exchange taking place... which may or may not be prefferential to those involved...

I just dont look at "germanic" cultures as being the most suggestive of submission, id say arabic cultures, and especially asian cultures push a social expectance of submission and power exchange...

I do see the correlation in the 50's american "nuclear family" (...think, the way they all acted in the beginning of Plesantville) it seemed suggested in that time and with that mindset that a wife should submit to her husband, let him make the decisions and sweetly stick by his side... i see this as being a culture that could produce (me) later generations with a interest in power exchange.

But as I sat here thinking about this question, I was reminded of that movie Euro Trip and the shots of the "dungeon" and knowing how socailly accepted BDSM is over there (enough for it to be legal... at least, maybe not widespead admiration...)

I guess id have to know what part of BDSM we are reffering to, as i dont see them as all the same thing, like you can have a culture that promotes Discipline and bondage, but not necessarily S&M... so the question is a little to wide scoped for me to form a firm answer, i am going to say... other...

 

[YourCaptor]

I know how it goes! I just didn't finish the song because I did want to. So there. *sticks my tongue out at you*

You know I should warn you, cute sass tend to trigger my playful disciplinary side. By the way I like the 50’s style. You should go for the 50’s good girl rebel style, they used to fold over their skirts to make them shorter, once out the door away from daddy’s eyes that is.

I do think some cultures have alot to do with conditioning people into the power exchange, like muslim women seem forced into their submission or traditional spanish homes where the (usually but not always) husband is served and catered to both culturally pushed roles seem like unspoked suggestion to/of a power exchange taking place... which may or may not be prefferential to those involved...

I just dont look at "germanic" cultures as being the most suggestive of submission, id say arabic cultures, and especially asian cultures push a social expectance of submission and power exchange...

I do see the correlation in the 50's american "nuclear family" (...think, the way they all acted in the beginning of Plesantville) it seemed suggested in that time and with that mindset that a wife should submit to her husband, let him make the decisions and sweetly stick by his side... i see this as being a culture that could produce (me) later generations with a interest in power exchange.

But as I sat here thinking about this question, I was reminded of that movie Euro Trip and the shots of the "dungeon" and knowing how socailly accepted BDSM is over there (enough for it to be legal... at least, maybe not widespead admiration...)

I guess id have to know what part of BDSM we are reffering to, as i dont see them as all the same thing, like you can have a culture that promotes Discipline and bondage, but not necessarily S&M... so the question is a little to wide scoped for me to form a firm answer, i am going to say... other...

Hmm, that’s interesting, because I was looking at it as in Germanic culture fostering dominance. Your definitely right in that it does not have the most submissive women, in fact Germanic culture, pre Christian days at least, gave women whatever rights they wanted. Yet Germanic culture also is filled with stories off super men, one-man vs a kingdom sort of stuff. As well as what Germanic warriors had to do for honor, such as fight until your arms are drenched in blood up to the shoulders.

By BDSM, I mean people actually stepping outside the culture norm to have fun in a BDSM like fashion. Does it happen more often in some cultures then others? Do the values of those cultures have anything to do with it?

 

[YourCaptor]

I have been thinking a lot about why Japan and Germany are both viewed as rather kinky, and I think I discovered that they are on opposite ends of the submissive to dominance spectrum.

For example, German society has authority as a way to make everything run smoothly, like lanes on a highway and road signs, very precise and to the point. On the other hand Japanese society has authority in that the people should all have an understanding of unwritten rules, formality that is to be accepted by all.

This is why a German will tell you straight out without any emotion if the market is closed, while a Japanese will tell you that it would be very difficult to go to the market.

In German society people are expected to be self-driven, make calculated decisions, and seek others approval through mastering their craft. The Japanese are expected to show loyalty and compliance in exchange for protection.

This is why a German is a perfectionist, and will often enjoy arguing over what is the correct method. While a Japanese considers being forgiven as the ultimate gift, especially since one persons dishonor reflects upon the entire group.

So, does Germany produce dominance and Japan submission?

 

[00Syd]

You know I should warn you, cute sass tend to trigger my playful disciplinary side. By the way I like the 50’s style. You should go for the 50’s good girl rebel style, they used to fold over their skirts to make them shorter, once out the door away from daddy’s eyes that is.

Consider myself warned!
I prefer 60s style myself. But what your talking about is sort of like a lot of the early 60s girl group style, like, you ever hear of The Shangri-Las? They were the epitome of good girl rebels. And from Brooklyn

 

[00Syd]

I have been thinking a lot about why Japan and Germany are both viewed as rather kinky, and I think I discovered that they are on opposite ends of the submissive to dominance spectrum.

For example, German society has authority as a way to make everything run smoothly, like lanes on a highway and road signs, very precise and to the point. On the other hand Japanese society has authority in that the people should all have an understanding of unwritten rules, formality that is to be accepted by all.

This is why a German will tell you straight out without any emotion if the market is closed, while a Japanese will tell you that it would be very difficult to go to the market.

In German society people are expected to be self-driven, make calculated decisions, and seek others approval through mastering their craft. The Japanese are expected to show loyalty and compliance in exchange for protection.

This is why a German is a perfectionist, and will often enjoy arguing over what is the correct method. While a Japanese considers being forgiven as the ultimate gift, especially since one persons dishonor reflects upon the entire group.

So, does Germany produce dominance and Japan submission?

Well, those are pretty big generalizations, but I see what you mean. Two very different cultures that put emphasis in two opposite ideals. I wouldn't say that Germany as a whole produces only dominants, and vice versa for Japan, but maybe if you did some research you'd find some correlation's.

Its an interesting idea.

 

[Tabea]

But as I sat here thinking about this question, I was reminded of that movie Euro Trip and the shots of the "dungeon" and knowing how socailly accepted BDSM is over there (enough for it to be legal... at least, maybe not widespead admiration...)

It is socially accepted over here?
I never noticed.

In Germany you can consent to bodily harm - that applies to sports, tattoos, operations etc as well as to BDSM.

According to the internet BDSM is still illegal in England.
In Switzerland even the possession of "objects or demonstrations [...] which depict sexual acts with violent content" is punishable.

 

[Tabea]

So, does Germany produce dominance ... ?

No it doesn't.

For example, German society has authority as a way to make everything run smoothly, like lanes on a highway and road signs, very precise and to the point.

That also means you have to obey those rules and where is the dominance in that?

This is why a German will tell you straight out without any emotion if the market is closed, while a Japanese will tell you that it would be very difficult to go to the market.

These are just different concepts und understandings of politeness which are not necessarily related to the dominance/submissiveness of the individual.

In German society people are expected to be self-driven, make calculated decisions, and seek others approval through mastering their craft.
This is why a German is a perfectionist, and will often enjoy arguing over what is the correct method.

It's good that you don't make any generalisations. We Germans are just all exactly the same.

Not to start another discussion but did you consider the nature vs nurture dabate? Even if (as you believe) some societies condition people to be dominant this could be irrelevant to each person's orientation if it's something you are already born with.

All citizens of a country are exposed to the same social conditioning. Do you really think that would make everybody in the same country dominant or submissive?

 

[rosco rathbone]

traditional spanish homes where the (usually but not always) husband is served

Telemundo daytime soaps. "Descisiones De Mujeres". bdsm!

 

[YourCaptor]

All citizens of a country are exposed to the same social conditioning. Do you really think that would make everybody in the same country dominant or submissive?

No, I don’t think so, I like to believe in individualism. Even if a culture treated everyone under it the exact same way people would still be different. However speaking only of the concept of culture, not how every individual turns out, I think Germany comes out as one of the more dominant ones. As for Japanese culture being submissive I am not sure about, I was researching it and found a lot of things that would make it appear so, but then, maybe I just don’t get it cause I didn’t grow up under that culture.

It's good that you don't make any generalisations. We Germans are just all exactly the same.

This is about culture, not individual people. Culture being the way in which a group of people express itself internally and externally. Hence at some point you got to either generalize, or dismiss the concept of culture entirely. Which brings up another interesting point. Is culture disappearing with the destructive effect the internet has on nationalism? Are we all headed for a planet earth culture, or are we heading for a world consisting only of what we now consider subcultures. But that’s off topic, although I wonder what DB would have to say about that.

I think the Germany, Japan thing is still an interesting idea, especial because both cultures tend to strive for similar results, such as the highest quality possible in their products. I think its cool to see that two completely different groups of people can come together but from opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

[YourCaptor]

Consider myself warned!
I prefer 60s style myself. But what your talking about is sort of like a lot of the early 60s girl group style, like, you ever hear of The Shangri-Las? They were the epitome of good girl rebels. And from Brooklyn

I have never heard of the Shangri-Las, but I will definitely check them out.

Never been to Brooklyn either, although I have been next door.

 

[YourCaptor]

Ohhh, didn’t know the name but I know leader of the pack. Damn, they are cute too.

Shout!

 

[DeservingBitch]

Which brings up another interesting point. Is culture disappearing with the destructive effect the internet has on nationalism? Are we all headed for a planet earth culture, or are we heading for a world consisting only of what we now consider subcultures. But that’s off topic, although I wonder what DB would have to say about that.

Cultures, like nations, are 'imagined communities' (Benedict Anderson) that exist only through representation.

On a related note, I have to say that I found it funny to read your thoughts on 'germans dominance' and 'japanese submission' after you made a point about racist talk.

I'm not convinced there's a huge difference between saying that X people are culturally dominant and Y people culturally submissive, and saying that X people are naturally/racially dominant and Y people are naturally/racially submissive. Especially since cultures, nations, and races are concepts that informed one another, and that dominance/submission when associated with those concepts never come without value associated to one term of the equation while the other is devalorized. Just sayin'

 

[YourCaptor]

On a related note, I have to say that I found it funny to read your thoughts on 'germans dominance' and 'japanese submission' after you made a point about racist talk.

And my earlier ruckus comes back full circle

Cultures, like nations, are 'imagined communities' (Benedict Anderson) that exist only through representation.

Then what is a real community?

I'm not convinced there's a huge difference between saying that X people are culturally dominant and Y people culturally submissive, and saying that X people are naturally/racially dominant and Y people are naturally/racially submissive. Especially since cultures, nations, and races are concepts that informed one another, and that dominance/submission when associated with those concepts never come without value associated to one term of the equation while the other is devalorized. Just sayin'

I would have to disagree, while saying X is dominant does mean superiority, but saying X has dominant tendencies does not. X culture focuses on drawing out individuals, while Y culture focuses on making individuals inseparable from each other. Hens X is not dominant, but values dominance.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Then what is a real community?

A collective hallucination.

I would have to disagree, while saying X is dominant does mean superiority, but saying X has dominant tendencies does not. X culture focuses on drawing out individuals, while Y culture focuses on making individuals inseparable from each other. Hens X is not dominant, but values dominance.

Uh-huh. It most be a coincidence then that every single colonizing nation/cultures represented itself has culturally AND racially dominant, while representing the nations/cultures they colonized has culturally AND racially submissive. Or that slavery was justify and explained in part by suggesting that non-white cultures and races were inclined to be dominated.

Come on. Your posts above are full of gross generalizations that are for the most part informed by stereotypes of german and japanese respective culture and people.

 

[YourCaptor]

A collective hallucination.

Ha, that made me laugh out laud, nice. You’re probably right, but does it even matter then whether we have it or not. The human is a social animal, not much one can do about that.

Uh-huh. It most be a coincidence then that every single colonizing nation/cultures represented itself has culturally AND racially dominant, while representing the nations/cultures they colonized has culturally AND racially submissive. Or that slavery was justify and explained in part by suggesting that non-white cultures and races were inclined to be dominated.

Come on. Your posts above are full of gross generalizations that are for the most part informed by stereotypes of german and japanese respective culture and people.

I’m not making any excuses for such things, I don’t even want to bring politics into this. The examples of the cultural values I mentioned are definitely stereotypical, but they where meant as a plain illustration to show what the values can result in. The values themselves are very real, of course usually only the conservative stick to them entirely, but its still part of the culture.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I’m not making any excuses for such things, I don’t even want to bring politics into this. The examples of the cultural values I mentioned are definitely stereotypical, but they where meant as a plain illustration to show what the values can result in. The values themselves are very real, of course usually only the conservative stick to them entirely, but its still part of the culture.

There's always politics and power involved in putting people in boxes.

 

[YourCaptor]

There's always politics and power involved in putting people in boxes.

True that, but that’s why I like culture so much. When you travel you see it change gradually, or with a geographical change. Borders never fully control it.

 

[Netzach]

A collective hallucination.


Uh-huh. It most be a coincidence then that every single colonizing nation/cultures represented itself has culturally AND racially dominant, while representing the nations/cultures they colonized has culturally AND racially submissive. Or that slavery was justify and explained in part by suggesting that non-white cultures and races were inclined to be dominated.

Come on. Your posts above are full of gross generalizations that are for the most part informed by stereotypes of german and japanese respective culture and people.

The Japanese weren't exactly submitting all over Nanking, were they? The idea of labeling the Japanese submissive because of their linguistic codes about politeness....

look, D/s is about what people do in their private life. None of us are Doms or subs in the US, we're all fucking consumers, if you just want to overlay this reasoning on yourself.

I also think Russia provides a wonderful example of a culture that pushes collective thinking over thinking about the individual. A veritable nation of shrinking violets, those people.

 

[YourCaptor]

Is the occurrence of BDSM within culture a testament to the people’s personal freedom?