Been thinking ... What is poetry

[RhymeSmith]

Perhaps, as a newbie, I shouldn't express an opinion...

but I tend to adhere to the Keats dogma - "truth is beauty, beauty truth" - for much of my personal philosopy. For me poetry is a means of clarifying my own thinking, and presenting my thoughts to another (or many others) in a way that hopefully makes those thoughts both beautiful and believable. Rhyme and meter force an economy of words, and a clarity of vision upon an author that mere prose does not.

 

[CharleyH]

You missed my point. The point was that they are similar in the following way: Poetry (like porn) is hard to define in specific terms, nevertheless most of us can tell when we read/hear poetry.

Porn is easy to figure out. Poetry is and isn't. I like ee cummings, but must admit that form poetry is more admirable to me. Poets who play with form are even more admirable to me.

 

[bogusbrig]

but I tend to adhere to the Keats dogma - "truth is beauty, beauty truth" - for much of my personal philosopy.

Nah, UGLY is far more beautiful than beauty. If my French serves me well they say 'jolie laid' which actually directly translates as 'pretty ugly' but what the French call pretty ugly is Beatrice Dalle who to me is poetry personified. A beautiful ugly mad woman.

 

[RhymeFairy]

To me ....

Poetry is the song of my heart, in that time and that space. It could be worry over a loved one, a thought gone wild or just a memory. A picture is worth a thousand words, I've been told ... but to me poetry is writing from the soul ....

jus' me ....

 

[RhymeSmith]

Nah, UGLY is far more beautiful than beauty.

Hah! Reminds me of the Bizarro character in Superman comic books.

... on the other hand, there are different kinds of beauty...

... ugly is Beatrice Dalle who to me is poetry personified. A beautiful ugly mad woman..

I hadn't heard of Ms. Dalle before you mentioned her, so I went searching. I agree, she is beautiful, though some hairstyles make her mouth appear a bit too wide for my tastes - something I've noticed in several French actresses. When you say she is ugly, you must be referring to her persona (as opposed to her person). The images I could find were anything but ugly.

I don't interpret Keats literally. It's just that, for me, well-structured rhyme and rhythm can lend a certain feeling of veracity to the images that a poem creates in my mind. Perhaps these things just assist in creating that elusive state of "plausible suspension of disbelief".

 

[anonamouse]

but I tend to adhere to the Keats dogma - "truth is beauty, beauty truth" - for much of my personal philosopy. For me poetry is a means of clarifying my own thinking, and presenting my thoughts to another (or many others) in a way that hopefully makes those thoughts both beautiful and believable. Rhyme and meter force an economy of words, and a clarity of vision upon an author that mere prose does not.

is just that - dogma
Rhyme and metre force just that also - Rhyme and metre
A is not B

 

[xxxPEACHxxx]

Happy Saturday, Literotica! This thread looks just right for my first post, may I?

I think that poetry is a mood: Have you ever tried to read or write poetry when you're not in the mood? It becomes (for me at least) a tedious mishmash of words that feel more like clutter to the brain than what it was intended to be.

 

[Angeline]

Happy Saturday, Literotica! This thread looks just right for my first post, may I?

I think that poetry is a mood: Have you ever tried to read or write poetry when you're not in the mood? It becomes (for me at least) a tedious mishmash of words that feel more like clutter to the brain than what it was intended to be.

Hi and welcome to the poetry forum.

I love your description of what happens when the poetry is not flowing. That's just what it feels like to me, too. On the other hand, I think it's possible to tap into that "mood" at will. The way to do it is to write every day. Without fail, no excuses. Write and don't worry about the days all you produce is trivia and drival because the more you write, the more real poetry you will produce. I've gone at it both ways: write occasionally and it's much harder to get in touch with the poetry in you; write every day and the path is clear.

Just my two cents.

 

[sticksandstones]

Poetry is emotion caught on paper, it has many shapes and forms, and can capture a single thought with many different enterpretations and meanings for all those who read it.

 

[xxxPEACHxxx]

Hi and welcome to the poetry forum.

I love your description of what happens when the poetry is not flowing. That's just what it feels like to me, too. On the other hand, I think it's possible to tap into that "mood" at will. The way to do it is to write every day. Without fail, no excuses. Write and don't worry about the days all you produce is trivia and drival because the more you write, the more real poetry you will produce. I've gone at it both ways: write occasionally and it's much harder to get in touch with the poetry in you; write every day and the path is clear.

Just my two cents.

Thank you!

But if I do as you suggest, I worry that it might start to feel burdensome, which would defeat the purpose for me: I look for an escape, in poetry, a channeling of emotions. Trying to push through the block might crumble my brains into a really bad mood, lol.

 

[bogusbrig]

is just that - dogma
Rhyme and metre force just that also - Rhyme and metre
A is not B

Good point. There is a whole discussion here to be had about the positives and negatives of form over free form, though I would argue free form has to have an internal logic (or form) to be successful. One can rely on form as though it is a crutch, the best form poetry being successful in spite of its restrictions, not because of them.

 

[Angeline]

Thank you!

But if I do as you suggest, I worry that it might start to feel burdensome, which would defeat the purpose for me: I look for an escape, in poetry, a channeling of emotions. Trying to push through the block might crumble my brains into a really bad mood, lol.

Everyone is different, I know, and I guess some people might think mechanizing poetry by forcing oneself to write daily is the very antithesis of what poetry should be. And I do think that "burdensome" is a stage one goes through when forcing writing. But it is a stage, as least for me, on the way to being more in tune
with the poetry in me.

Anyone who has tried the 30 poems in 30 days thread here (and some brave souls have done that multiple times) knows how hard and defeating it can feel to face writing that poem on day 8, day 15, day 22. And yet if you asked some of those poets, I bet they'd say that they produced some of their best writing in the process.

Obviously, I really believe in this, but I do know it's just my opinion.

 

[Angeline]

Good point. There is a whole discussion here to be had about the positives and negatives of form over free form, though I would argue free form has to have an internal logic (or form) to be successful. One can rely on form as though it is a crutch, the best form poetry being successful in spite of its restrictions, not because of them.

Hi K.

The thing I dig about form poetry is that the more you write it, the more you see how to bend and shift parameters to write poems that transcend the form. The best poems in any form, I think, do not strictly adhere to the form's requirements. And I agree that the free-est verse has a underlying structure the poet creates as he or she shapes and crafts the poem.

 

[xxxPEACHxxx]

Everyone is different, I know, and I guess some people might think mechanizing poetry by forcing oneself to write daily is the very antithesis of what poetry should be. And I do think that "burdensome" is a stage one goes through when forcing writing. But it is a stage, as least for me, on the way to being more in tune
with the poetry in me.

Anyone who has tried the 30 poems in 30 days thread here (and some brave souls have done that multiple times) knows how hard and defeating it can feel to face writing that poem on day 8, day 15, day 22. And yet if you asked some of those poets, I bet they'd say that they produced some of their best writing in the process.

Obviously, I really believe in this, but I do know it's just my opinion.

Wow. Just for kicks I have to go find this!

 

[RhymeSmith]

is just that ... A is not B

If you want to take on Keats, be my guest. I don't have a dog in that fight. I only used the quote to illustrate what one person's take on the thread topic might be. I also find the idea it expresses helpful in understanding some of my own attitudes and interpretations. I'm not the Pope of Poetry, and I won't be sending anyone to Hell for disagreeing with me.

Rhyme and metre force just that also - Rhyme and metre

What does this mean? It can't force anything, if you don't use it. If you harbor a hatred of these things, you won't like any of my work, since I'll always use them - except when I (stupidly) try to write haiku. It's okay, I won't mind. There are people who do like it, and I'm not out to build a fan club anyway.

I could as easily take the position that blank verse was invented for people who were too lazy to create rhymes - but I don't. I could say that free verse was invented for a subset of those same people who can't hear or feel a cadence - but I don't. There's room in the world for all of these things, and many people can and do write all kinds of the stuff we classify as poetry. I just prefer to write stuff that rhymes and has a cadence, while at the same time imparting some information.

As a (retired) mathematician, I do find beauty in truth, and very often a mathematical concept that is beautiful is also eventually found to be true. The same thing can be said for many other disciplines.

I'm sorry you were offended by my use of the quotation, but I'm not sorry for using it to express my point. It works for me.

 

[champagne1982]

Not to put words into twelveOoneio's mouth, but I think he's insinuating that sometimes, even the best poets can be convinced by their poetry that the metre and rhyme scheme must be adhered to, even though they are forced into existence, rather than fitting into the work.

I know you've read it, probably written it - forced yoda speak, improper tensual shifts and the like... the difference between an experienced poet and those who aren't quite as calloused yet, is that those who've been around don't show every baby picture off to the party, they share the one with the perfect smile instead.

 

[Angeline]

Not to put words into twelveOoneio's mouth, but I think he's insinuating that sometimes, even the best poets can be convinced by their poetry that the metre and rhyme scheme must be adhered to, even though they are forced into existence, rather than fitting into the work.

I know you've read it, probably written it - forced yoda speak, improper tensual shifts and the like... the difference between an experienced poet and those who aren't quite as calloused yet, is that those who've been around don't show every baby picture off to the party, they share the one with the perfect smile instead.

You have to start somewhere and practice. Lester Young said everyone (meaning jazz musicians, but it applies to any art, imo) begins by copying the artists they admire and that's how they learn. Eventually, if you keep at it, you transition from copying into your own voice. And I think that applies equally to free verse and form. I've seen (and written) sonnets where I've forced tortured construction into lines to make them iambic pentameter (which I now wouldn't do in a sonnet). I've read (and written) free verse with uninspired images or few (or no) images and lots of telling or cliches or lack of shaping.

What I don't get is why that's bad. Isn't it just a step on the path to developing one's poetic voice? And one of the great things about this forum, for me, is that we have threads like Passion Suddenly or Ten Words or the challenges where the expectation is that we're producing first-draft writing. That's what I'm doing. I may be more capable than some of editing as I produce a first draft simply because I've been doing it a long time, but for me this is the place where I can play with first drafts and edit for submission wherever. To put carefully edited poems in any of those threads would, for me, be defeating the purpose of them. Is that what others do?

Sure, writing in form can be a crutch, but so can writing in free verse. I've yet to see the argument that form somehow makes it easier to produce weak writing that makes sense to me.

 

[xxxPEACHxxx]

There's a style of music for every ear. There's probably a style of poetry for every reader.

 

[champagne1982]

I agree, there's nothing wrong with shaping and prodding your poetry to fit the formula. It's what constitutes practice. There's nothing wrong with practicing on the PF&D either, or any other writing site you belong to.

The big thing is that that submit button/envelope/e-mail is the equivalent of your big play of the game. Hopefully, all that practice will pay off and you'll get a game star out of it all (or a green E, or a red H, or whatever symbol measures success to you).

eta: p.s. To Angeline: You know I haven't really got significant clishayaphobia. I love it when they're used in novel ways and when they're artfully assimilated into the poem. Sometimes I miss the twist, but I can usually count on someone to point out variation and wit when a poet has adapted an old saw into something unique and fresh.

 

[Angeline]

I agree, there's nothing wrong with shaping and prodding your poetry to fit the formula. It's what constitutes practice. There's nothing wrong with practicing on the PF&D either, or any other writing site you belong to.

The big thing is that that submit button/envelope/e-mail is the equivalent of your big play of the game. Hopefully, all that practice will pay off and you'll get a game star out of it all (or a green E, or a red H, or whatever symbol measures success to you).

eta: p.s. To Angeline: You know I haven't really got significant clishayaphobia. I love it when they're used in novel ways and when they're artfully assimilated into the poem. Sometimes I miss the twist, but I can usually count on someone to point out variation and wit when a poet has adapted an old saw into something unique and fresh.

Lol! I looked it up and then I realized I just needed to read it phonetically. That was after Google asked me if I really meant claustrophobia.

I know you don't. I like that about you. It's actually a pretty bold move around here to use the word "rainbow" in a poem!

 

[Liar]

Well yanno, words are not clichés. Ideas are. Even if you dress them in entirely new words. And I've never come across a cliché idea in miss C's poems.

 

[anonamouse]

but I tend to adhere to the Keats dogma - "truth is beauty, beauty truth" - for much of my personal philosopy. For me poetry is a means of clarifying my own thinking, and presenting my thoughts to another (or many others) in a way that hopefully makes those thoughts both beautiful and believable. Rhyme and meter force an economy of words, and a clarity of vision upon an author that mere prose does not.

Some moon tart repeatly molests some dumb ass shepherd boy by the name of Eddy the Minion in a gaudy cave (Note Freudian significance of cave) and then puts him to sleep so he can't wander off.

Meanwhile young shep is dreaming of Little Bo Peep.

Only Little Bo Peep is a madam, and Eddy the Minion (Greek for Akbar) thinks he is in heaven and wonders how he got there, not remembering blowing anything up.

baaa, I can see the beauty in that....
truth is a little lite.

 

[anonamouse]

If you want to take on Keats, be my guest. I don't have a dog in that fight. I only used the quote to illustrate what one person's take on the thread topic might be. I also find the idea it expresses helpful in understanding some of my own attitudes and interpretations. I'm not the Pope of Poetry, and I won't be sending anyone to Hell for disagreeing with me.



What does this mean? It can't force anything, if you don't use it. If you harbor a hatred of these things, you won't like any of my work, since I'll always use them - except when I (stupidly) try to write haiku. It's okay, I won't mind. There are people who do like it, and I'm not out to build a fan club anyway.

I could as easily take the position that blank verse was invented for people who were too lazy to create rhymes - but I don't. I could say that free verse was invented for a subset of those same people who can't hear or feel a cadence - but I don't. There's room in the world for all of these things, and many people can and do write all kinds of the stuff we classify as poetry. I just prefer to write stuff that rhymes and has a cadence, while at the same time imparting some information.

As a (retired) mathematician, I do find beauty in truth, and very often a mathematical concept that is beautiful is also eventually found to be true. The same thing can be said for many other disciplines.

I'm sorry you were offended by my use of the quotation, but I'm not sorry for using it to express my point. It works for me.

I wasn't offended, math is one thing, poetry another. And I am open (more than most) to any and all kinds of poetry or "poetry".

True, Keats is not my cup of tea.

But anyone who knows of the Bizarro Worls is OK in my book.

 

[anonamouse]

I like that about you. It's actually a pretty bold move around here to use the word "rainbow" in a poem!

I did!!! ROFL

 

[anonamouse]

Hi K.

The thing I dig about form poetry is that the more you write it, the more you see how to bend and shift parameters to write poems that transcend the form. The best poems in any form, I think, do not strictly adhere to the form's requirements. And I agree that the free-est verse has a underlying structure the poet creates as he or she shapes and crafts the poem.

Hi A.
YEATS is not my cup of tea either.

However, Helen Vendler has a book out titled Our Secret Discipline - Yeats and Lyric Form in which she attemps to analyze why he uses the forms he choses. I just started it, so I have no other words. Even if you don't like Yeats, as I don't, he was not a plug everything into a form guy, he chose carefully.

Here is a Yeats quote:

You do not work on your technique. You take the easiest course - leave out the rhymes or chose the most hackneyed rhymes. because - damn you - you are lazy....

to Margot Collins April 1936

How many people does that desribe here????

Of course, I never can forgive Yeats for being an asshole about Wilfred Owen. And he was a bit looney to boot.