Being a woman in geek culture

[Primalex]

but there are still a lot of folks who completely ignore science, common sense, and the people in their own lives in order to maintain backward beliefs.

“Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

 

[Yasashii_Kaze]

The issue is not;
one woman at a time proving herself in the work place.
It is not;
individual men accepting an individual woman in the community.
and it is not;
Individual, paragon women being accepted once they prove they are BETTER then the run-of-the-mill men that happen to surround them.

It's very simply;
women being targeted because they are female.

The women who are not paragons get blamed for not being better than the men around them who are NOT required to be better.

This.

This is why I get scolded by my department head's boss for taking an hour of leave to deal with personal issues (which we are allowed to do, and is also much less than what they actually owe me) while my department head often works four hours of his 8-hour shift and disappears for the other four, leaving me to deal with his responsibilities, and has never had a word said to him in the seven years I've been here.

This is why I fight an uphill battle every day against an old boys club where if I get disgusted and put my foot down against doing someone else's job, they are not put to task for not doing it, but I am for not making sure it got done.

This is why I am brushed off when I call them out on this kind of treatment and told, condescendingly, that THEY aren't upset with ME, because obviously I was just in a bad mood.

This is why, even though I am known as the most reliable, knowledgeable tech on my team by the people I assist, I can't go anywhere in my career because my path is blocked by a bunch of chauvinist assholes.

This is why - for the first time since I joined this field - I hate my job.

 

[Keroin]

The women who are not paragons get blamed for not being better than the men around them who are NOT required to be better.

Exactly. The onus should not be on us to "prove" anything.

 

[satindesire]

This.

This is why I get scolded by my department head's boss for taking an hour of leave to deal with personal issues (which we are allowed to do, and is also much less than what they actually owe me) while my department head often works four hours of his 8-hour shift and disappears for the other four, leaving me to deal with his responsibilities, and has never had a word said to him in the seven years I've been here.

This is why I fight an uphill battle every day against an old boys club where if I get disgusted and put my foot down against doing someone else's job, they are not put to task for not doing it, but I am for not making sure it got done.

This is why I am brushed off when I call them out on this kind of treatment and told, condescendingly, that THEY aren't upset with ME, because obviously I was just in a bad mood.

This is why, even though I am known as the most reliable, knowledgeable tech on my team by the people I assist, I can't go anywhere in my career because my path is blocked by a bunch of chauvinist assholes.

This is why - for the first time since I joined this field - I hate my job.

*sympathy rib-cracking bearhug*

 

[Yasashii_Kaze]

*sympathy rib-cracking bearhug*

Thanks. I just needed to vent and I guess I went off a bit. I don't even tell my best friend here how bad it is because these are all guys that she knows and at least used to be friends with, and I hate to drag that through the mud. So pretty much SW has to sit and listen to me when I finally blow.

 

[Recidiva]

Thanks. I just needed to vent and I guess I went off a bit. I don't even tell my best friend here how bad it is because these are all guys that she knows and at least used to be friends with, and I hate to drag that through the mud. So pretty much SW has to sit and listen to me when I finally blow.

I know the impulse to be the gracious and the grown up person, to be the example of good behavior, and then to be trampled for it.

In my head I might just re-classify my job as babysitting and get on with doing the good work among children, but I don't think that works when you care about your career and want to do your job, not babysitting.

I hope you find a way to work it out and it doesn't take an internal toll.

 

[satindesire]

Thanks. I just needed to vent and I guess I went off a bit. I don't even tell my best friend here how bad it is because these are all guys that she knows and at least used to be friends with, and I hate to drag that through the mud. So pretty much SW has to sit and listen to me when I finally blow.

Oh, you guys are friends IRL? That's cool!!

I wish some of y'all here on Lit lived closer to me, because the people in this town kind of suck. :-/

 

[Yasashii_Kaze]

Oh, you guys are friends IRL? That's cool!!

I wish some of y'all here on Lit lived closer to me, because the people in this town kind of suck. :-/

Yeah, I know what you mean. Soooo very much. I only have a handful of intimate friends, and half of them are from Lit.

 

[satindesire]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Soooo very much. I only have a handful of intimate friends, and half of them are from Lit.

We should make our own town. *sagenod*

 

[SilverbackUK]

I specifically think that geek culture is meant to be a haven.

No, it's meant to be a culture. Hopefully a vibrant and thriving one, not a refuge for people who can't or won't integrate into other cultures.

Yeah, we have the 'emotionally overinvested' and the 'socially inept'. We also have writers, artists, creators, engineers and scientists who have shaped the latter half of the 20th century and are doing the same for the 21st...

Some guys are dicks towards some women. A lot of other guys know they're dicks and are happy to tell them so.

Also, without the Bjo Trimbles and Janet Quartons of the world, would we even have geek culture?

Cheers

 

[Stella_Omega]

Some guys are dicks towards some women. A lot of other guys know they're dicks and are happy to tell them so.

Want some links? I can give you about one hundred, where I hope you will be happy to speak up and tell them so, because I would rather you get shat on for it than me.

 

[satindesire]

No, it's meant to be a culture. Hopefully a vibrant and thriving one, not a refuge for people who can't or won't integrate into other cultures.

Yeah, we have the 'emotionally overinvested' and the 'socially inept'. We also have writers, artists, creators, engineers and scientists who have shaped the latter half of the 20th century and are doing the same for the 21st...

Some guys are dicks towards some women. A lot of other guys know they're dicks and are happy to tell them so.

Also, without the Bjo Trimbles and Janet Quartons of the world, would we even have geek culture?

Cheers

Well, I disagree. Culture has and always will be a place where like minded individuals can feel easy and rest. Geek culture is no less so than artist culture or music culture.

To reduce the extreme problem that geek culture has with sexism today into "Some guys are just dicks" minimizes all the harm that women come to because of that "dickish" behavior.

But thanks for mansplaining it, for my hysterical wimmin's ladybrain.

 

[Primalex]

To reduce the extreme problem that geek culture has with sexism today

The geek culture has no problem with sexism today, women have a problem with the sexism in the geek culture.

 

[Recidiva]

With all respect to the guys who feel offended, you are not naturally included in the culture that is anti-girl until you prove you are.

We know not all men are guilty. But there is truly no need to tell us what we know as if we didn't know it.

That does, in fact, insult the intelligence of the people just hanging out and getting along or not getting along on their own merits who are not speaking for all of society, but for their own opinions and experiences.

No "man" in here is elected to speak for all of you. We all have our favorite translators who speak more eloquently and we would actually care to listen to.

No "woman" here is going to speak for all women. I won't and I'm not going to. But I am certainly allowed my opinion and experience without the need for perspective from the peanut gallery with penises.

And if you barge in and then take too much authority and too little perspective then yes, you get what you get.

If you want to rethink it and give "your" experiences and frustrations, you will still get what you get, but it might be more thoughtful and less dismissive.

 

[KoPilot]

Want some links? I can give you about one hundred, where I hope you will be happy to speak up and tell them so, because I would rather you get shat on for it than me.

Yes, if only the men who speak up against women who talk about crappy men took that gumption and instead spoke up against the crappy men in the first place.

Men, own your shit. You help no one but yourselves until you do.

 

[SilverbackUK]

Want some links? I can give you about one hundred, where I hope you will be happy to speak up and tell them so, because I would rather you get shat on for it than me.

a) What makes you think I don't already raise my head and growl about it whenever I see it?

b) If you're not willing to get shat on for something you see as a problem affecting you, what makes you think others should instead?

Well, I disagree. Culture has and always will be a place where like minded individuals can feel easy and rest. Geek culture is no less so than artist culture or music culture.

To reduce the extreme problem that geek culture has with sexism today into "Some guys are just dicks" minimizes all the harm that women come to because of that "dickish" behavior.

But thanks for mansplaining it, for my hysterical wimmin's ladybrain.

So you can disagree and that's fine, but if I disagree that's me being patronising to you?

I'm a big believer in individuals as opposed to lumping everyone together by whatever convenient labels are to hand... So maybe some people have a problem with you because you seem more interested in being a victim than in being a survivor?

Whatever floats your boat, I guess...

Cheers

 

[SilverbackUK]

Exactly. The onus should not be on us to "prove" anything.

Umm... isn't the whole point of a gender neutral meritocracy that everyone has to prove themselves? And that whoever gets to be King/Queen of the Hill gets there by fighting their way tooth and claw up that hill?

Equality means having a level playing field, not that you get the prize just for showing up.

Certainly in many cases the playing field is not level as regards gender. But that's what needs fixed, by everyone. And it's hard work.

Cheers

 

[Bramblethorn]

Umm... isn't the whole point of a gender neutral meritocracy that everyone has to prove themselves?

You seem to have missed the context of Stella and Keroin's exchange: the standard of "prove themselves" applied to women is not the same standard that's applied to men. Also, as discussed earlier in this thread, the onus of proof is applied in the opposite direction.

A woman is accepted after she demonstrates a high level of competence. A guy is accepted until he demonstrates incompetence. That's not an equal standard.

 

[SilverbackUK]

You seem to have missed the context of Stella and Keroin's exchange: the standard of "prove themselves" applied to women is not the same standard that's applied to men. Also, as discussed earlier in this thread, the onus of proof is applied in the opposite direction.

A woman is accepted after she demonstrates a high level of competence. A guy is accepted until he demonstrates incompetence. That's not an equal standard.

Hence my agreement that it's often not a level playing field...

There are many things in life that are unfair. You fix what you can and learn to live with or avoid what you can't.

Just singing sad songs about how unfair it all is achieves very little.

Cheers

 

[Bramblethorn]

There are many things in life that are unfair. You fix what you can and learn to live with or avoid what you can't.

...in other news, sky blue, water wet.

Just singing sad songs about how unfair it all is achieves very little.

And what leads you to think that anybody here is in the business of "just singing sad songs about it all"?

 

[KoPilot]

Umm... isn't the whole point of a gender neutral meritocracy that everyone has to prove themselves? And that whoever gets to be King/Queen of the Hill gets there by fighting their way tooth and claw up that hill?

You missed the part where we don't and never have lived in a meritocracy?

You give a dollar a day to someone with a million dollars and someone with none; how, exactly, is that fair?

 

[KoPilot]

And what leads you to think that anybody here is in the business of "just singing sad songs about it all"?

Voicing frustrations and sharing information is apparently counter-productive to The Cause.

 

[Recidiva]

Hence my agreement that it's often not a level playing field...

There are many things in life that are unfair. You fix what you can and learn to live with or avoid what you can't.

Just singing sad songs about how unfair it all is achieves very little.

Cheers

Silverback, think about some of this logically. You are saying that you are being treated unfairly here, but being here is entirely voluntary.

You made the point that cultures are just what they are and are not expected to accept new members by some universal rule.

I actually agree with you and I have said some of the same things. But I said so as a woman, with experiences in geek culture. Which is the thread title and which is why I would feel I could contribute that.

If there were a thread called "Being A Man in Geek Culture" I probably would not contribute because that's not what the discussion is about.

You have contributed nothing of yourself other than rather hypocritical, intrusive input that if you'd read the thread or listened to the denizens and you'd followed your own rules, you'd try not to jump in as the Dungeonmaster and try making your own rules and insisting on them.

Some perspective, and some of yourself as a person and not a critic, would be welcomed at least on my behalf.

Otherwise, you have good advice, but we're aware of that advice and you're not taking it yourself.

 

[SilverbackUK]

Silverback, think about some of this logically. You are saying that you are being treated unfairly here, but being here is entirely voluntary.

Ummm... no I haven't?

You made the point that cultures are just what they are and are not expected to accept new members by some universal rule.

No, I took - and continue to take - exception to the definition of 'geek culture' as a 'haven'. Based on a personal perspective of 30-40 years immersion in that culture.

You have contributed nothing of yourself other than rather hypocritical, intrusive input that if you'd read the thread or listened to the denizens and you'd followed your own rules, you'd try not to jump in as the Dungeonmaster and try making your own rules and insisting on them.

Hypocritical and intrusive? Well, thank goodness being here is entirely voluntary... Those eager to take offence where none was intended can hopefully make their way to the exits unharmed... Heaven forfend that any voice not singing the litany might harm their shell like ears by making an unpopular observation...

sigh...

I give up.

It's really not worth the arseache of trying to have this conversation in here.

Cheers

 

[Recidiva]

Ummm... no I haven't?

No, I took - and continue to take - exception to the definition of 'geek culture' as a 'haven'. Based on a personal perspective of 30-40 years immersion in that culture.

Hypocritical and intrusive? Well, thank goodness being here is entirely voluntary... Those eager to take offence where none was intended can hopefully make their way to the exits unharmed... Heaven forfend that any voice not singing the litany might harm their shell like ears by making an unpopular observation...

sigh...

I give up.

It's really not worth the arseache of trying to have this conversation in here.

Cheers

I also took exception to the idea that a culture needs to be inherently or welcoming to everyone. The members of the culture are out for what they want, not what everybody else wants.

So...did you read that previous conversation or would you just like to have it again, only angrier and with more people?

But I can show that even if someone agrees with you, made the point earlier but just thinks you're being a jerk about it, you'll be a jerk to her.

Good. No movement of the thread is preferable to repeated and clumsy shots at already-explored subjects that you didn't bother to read in the first place, when you're simply determined to knee-jerk say a snotty "no" to even politely made points that agree with your content, but not your approach.