Being a woman in geek culture

[Stella_Omega]

To "non-feminine" according to stereotype characteristics and stature and behavior.

To dark elves with bumpy faces. To melee classes.

My favorite name for the non-typically feminine characters is "Rafflesia." Botanical name of the corpse flower.

I have lots of crushing, stomping, two-hander swinging dwarves and trolls and firbolg and...well...lots.

Umm... I'm thinking you haven't been aware of the war that's been going on throughout the gaming world, maybe?

The last time I looked at WOW, for instance a melee class female wore some kind of a melee bikini. I couldn't find a way to get even the basic coverage that males had, and that was it for me and WOW.

 

[BrightlyGo]

I'm not trying to tell you to leave the thread, but every time you contribute, it's to derail and talk about men's issues. Go make your own thread. A number of us would be more than happy to follow you over there and talk about the ways men are taken advantage of and the narratives they're expected to emulate. But there. Not here. This thread is called "being a woman in geek culture".

i think it's just slightly ironic that a genderqueer cis-male, and a female-bodied ace are in danger of slipping into an "us vs them" argument.

And, i haven't heard any issue discussed here that would apply in an all-girl-geek setting, either. 'Geek culture' is both men and women. So, "being a woman..." sure, i get the emphasis, and i'm not trying to take away from it. But, "...in geek culture," that brings the geeky guys into it.

 

[Recidiva]

Umm... I'm thinking you haven't been aware of the war that's been going on throughout the gaming world, maybe?

The last time I looked at WOW, for instance a melee class female wore some kind of a melee bikini. I couldn't find a way to get even the basic coverage that males had, and that was it for me and WOW.

I play WOW, and you're right. The beginner level stuff is belly shirts and bullshit.

However, at higher levels the gear looks much more imposing and much cooler. And I made it myself. My hunter's wearing this set. No more feathered loincloths, teddies and bikinis. You still see it in the lower levels though as they haven't revamped it.

Everybody I have now is fully covered, but I'm mostly in the 90s. Gear starts to get more realistic around level 60. Pandas are not pretty. Neither are goblins or worgen or any other number of options rather than being a human female.

The little dragon on my shoulder breathes purple smoke. I loves it.

 

[Recidiva]

Natia Aeducan in Dragon Age.

Scarred, branded, not a pretty girl, kicked the crap out of everyone and then stomped on them with plate boots.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I play WOW, and you're right. The beginner level stuff is belly shirts and bullshit.

However, at higher levels the gear looks much more imposing and much cooler. And I made it myself. My hunter's wearing this set. No more feathered loincloths, teddies and bikinis. You still see it in the lower levels though as they haven't revamped it.

Everybody I have now is fully covered, but I'm mostly in the 90s. Gear starts to get more realistic around level 60. Pandas are not pretty. Neither are goblins or worgen or any other number of options rather than being a human female.

The little dragon on my shoulder breathes purple smoke. I loves it.

yay. Like I say though, I never bothered to go back, because as I pointed out-- I could not begin the game with the basic assumption of respect that the most beginning of beginner male player could count on.

Does that make any sort of sense to you?

Do you understand that it isn't a matter of "well, you can do this once you've leveled up to God Tier?"

 

[Recidiva]

yay. Like I say though, I never bothered to go back, because As i pointed out-- I could not begin the game with the basic assumption of respect that the most beginning of beginner male player could count on.

Does that make any sort of sense to you?

Do you understand that it isn't a matter of "well, you can do this once you've leveled up to God Tier?"

Oh, it makes total sense and I have bitched my way through years of the same thing.

But on the flip side, my husband had to wear the same gear and was equally irritated with feathered loincloths. He switched to playing female characters in defense at times. It was sexually inappropriate and ridiculous to any roleplayer who wanted to look like they wanted to kill something, not fuck it.

It's been a huge issue, but Warcraft is an old game now and it has changed over the years. Credit where it's due is all I'm saying. Most games now give you more options. Everquest lets you create your own appearance gear from scratch. Some don't and some won't and some are always going to be sexually graphic as default, but the ones I've played have changed over the years.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Credit where it's due is all I'm saying

I'll take some of the credit.

You're welcome.

 

[KoPilot]

i think it's just slightly ironic that a genderqueer cis-male, and a female-bodied ace are in danger of slipping into an "us vs them" argument.

And, i haven't heard any issue discussed here that would apply in an all-girl-geek setting, either. 'Geek culture' is both men and women. So, "being a woman..." sure, i get the emphasis, and i'm not trying to take away from it. But, "...in geek culture," that brings the geeky guys into it.

It's not "us vs them", it's that you honestly can't speak to that which you don't know-- you don't know what it's like to be read as female.

And what you're doing is inserting a lot of "yeah, but men have it bad too"s. And the reason why that's frustrating and not particularly conducive to progress for anybody, can be found right here: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/

As for the rest of your argument, change "geek culture" to "the entire world" and you've basically just negated the need for all safe spaces for everybody. And I don't think you really believe that.

 

[Recidiva]

I'll take some of the credit.

You're welcome.

Thank you!

Warcraft I really wanted to play, because my husband was playing. There are several games where the lowbie character was a thong-clad elf and the camera was pointed straight up her ass when she ran and I just...backed out quietly.

I do credit the community of roleplayers who bicker and what the fuck themselves on the forums so women aren't given tooth floss to wear. It's a process.

 

[Netzach]

...hmmm... now that i think about it, because our geeky hobbies are things we do together, and because there are more women involved in them than there used to be (a trend that became pretty strong back in the 90s), i don't think i've been in that situation in a very long time.

Then get into it once in a while, specifically for this purpose. Believe me, it will make a difference. Uncomfortable? I'm sure. And...?

 

[Netzach]

'Society' isn't 'guys.' Where do you think acculturation starts? It starts with primary care-givers and pre-school and grade-school teachers - and they're overwhelmingly female.

And why is THAT? Where do you think they're getting their ideas from and who benefits? Seriously, like a bunch of middle aged women teachers said "you know I'm really going to make this hard for boys..."

In fact, no, they make it easier. Find any study of mixed gender classrooms where girls benefit more with their female teachers. ANY. No, there aren't any. The fuckery runs so deep that we do it to ourselves just fine without help, but we didn't come up with this shit.

 

[BiBunny]

So, no, the lesson isn't 'everyone gets a girl,' the lesson is the big, strong, aggressive, /important/ guy gets the girl, everyone else gets killed or ignored - so be that guy, or else. No pressure, boys.

Bullshit. See every stupid slacker movie ever.

You know, as goddamned annoying as I find a lot of feminist arguments about many things to be, it's still not nearly as annoying as this type of shit.

 

[Netzach]

Bullshit. See every stupid slacker movie ever.

You know, as goddamned annoying as I find a lot of feminist arguments about many things to be, it's still not nearly as annoying as this type of shit.

I was actually trying to think the other day - is there a female Big Lebowski? (The Lebowski thing is geek, right?)

Is there one movie about a holy feckless female drifter slackery nerd? Or just slacker? Or like a ditzy observer and we're seeing it all through her?

One of the most surprisingly feminist movies I've ever seen is by the Coens, it's Blood Simple. Fargo is, too, in a way.

 

[BiBunny]

I was actually trying to think - is there a female Lebowski? Is there one movie about a holy feckless female drifter slackery nerd? Or just slacker? Or like a ditzy observer and we're seeing it all through her?

One of the most surprisingly feminist movies I've ever seen is by the Coens, it's Blood Simple.

Not to my (admittedly very slight) knowledge.

 

[Recidiva]

I was actually trying to think - is there a female Lebowski? Is there one movie about a holy feckless female drifter slackery nerd? Or just slacker? Or like a ditzy observer and we're seeing it all through her?

One of the most surprisingly feminist movies I've ever seen is by the Coens, it's Blood Simple. Fargo is, too, in a way.

Damn, yes, there is. It's her name in the title I think. Saw it years and years ago. Really, really smart, but just works at a grocery store and doesn't want to try any harder...drug use, sex, angst...

Anybody remember? I can't find a keyword. Not a comedy.

 

[Netzach]

Damn, yes, there is. It's her name in the title I think. Saw it years and years ago. Really, really smart, but just works at a grocery store and doesn't want to try any harder...drug use, sex, angst...

Anybody remember? I can't find a keyword. Not a comedy.

Need to see!

I want a comedy though. I want one where we're supposed to be all "haha, hell yeah" and root for her. And her pursuit isn't a guy but something like a White Castle.

 

[KoPilot]

Bullshit. See every stupid slacker movie ever.

You know, as goddamned annoying as I find a lot of feminist arguments about many things to be, it's still not nearly as annoying as this type of shit.

Ugh, can't believe it didn't occur to me to address this either.

See "every TV sitcom ever" also: lazy, conventionally unattractive husband working average white-collar job somehow lands a hot wife who does absolutely nothing but put up with his idiocy. All it takes is a "I'm sorry, honey" and next minute she's in lingerie. Who cares if he screws up every 5 minutes, apologies fix everything and are the foundation of all the marriages.

 

[Recidiva]

Need to see!

I want a comedy though. I want one where we're supposed to be all "haha, hell yeah" and root for her. And her pursuit isn't a guy but something like a White Castle.

I'm going to search...it's just a good portrayal of a very smart woman with zero ambition and no interest in social skills to get ahead.

I know there's comedy, but it's of the brittle sort. But it is not, on the whole, a comedy...

Oh fuck me...yeah, this is going to be fun. I'm getting guides to "how to pick up women in grocery stores" on my search engine.

Quick, what are all the female names in the English language, better luck...

 

[Recidiva]

Well, there's "Ghost World" too...yes, I can't find it. I'm searching "female slacker" now...Muriel's Wedding...but the word wedding is probably an issue...

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ugh, can't believe it didn't occur to me to address this either.

See "every TV sitcom ever" also: lazy, conventionally unattractive husband working average white-collar job somehow lands a hot wife who does absolutely nothing but put up with his idiocy. All it takes is a "I'm sorry, honey" and next minute she's in lingerie. Who cares if he screws up every 5 minutes, apologies fix everything and are the foundation of all the marriages.

or Married With Children, where the hubby actively detests his Hot Babe™ wife. And nothing ever gets fixed ever.
Where the daughter is characterised as "Pretty, but dim and promiscuous." (because "Pretty" is a positive trait, dim and promiscuous are bad)

 

[Recidiva]

I can nominate Cowboy Bebop for some unconventional females. I Ed. There's even a dude with boobs.

 

[BiBunny]

Ugh, can't believe it didn't occur to me to address this either.

See "every TV sitcom ever" also: lazy, conventionally unattractive husband working average white-collar job somehow lands a hot wife who does absolutely nothing but put up with his idiocy. All it takes is a "I'm sorry, honey" and next minute she's in lingerie. Who cares if he screws up every 5 minutes, apologies fix everything and are the foundation of all the marriages.

or Married With Children, where the hubby actively detests his Hot Babe™ wife. And nothing ever gets fixed ever.

And suddenly I just realized where all my problems with relationships come from.

Motherfucker.

Thank you for that. Both of you.

Er, that sounded sarcastic. I didn't mean it that way. Seriously, thank you. That was extremely enlightening.

 

[KoPilot]

Click all the links:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UglyGuyHotWife

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GiveGeeksAChance

 

[KoPilot]

And suddenly I just realized where all my problems with relationships come from.

Goddammit :[

 

[Recidiva]

Good news and bad news. Reminded of Citizen Ruth and Tank Girl...but the bad news is that there are approximately 256,892 male slacker films to every female slacker film, and I'm not going to strain my eyes to find the female names amid the Happy Gilmores.