Being a woman in geek culture

[Netzach]

Good news and bad news. Reminded of Citizen Ruth and Tank Girl...but the bad news is that there are approximately 256,892 male slacker films to every female slacker film, and I'm not going to strain my eyes to find the female names amid the Happy Gilmores.

Oh yeah - the abortion stuff in Citizen Ruth always trumped anything else that film actually is, I think. Tank Girl, yeah. And I agree.

 

[Recidiva]

Oh yeah - the abortion stuff in Citizen Ruth always trumped anything else that film actually is, I think. Tank Girl, yeah. And I agree.

So...one. *sigh* But I really like Tank Girl.

 

[KoPilot]

So...one. *sigh* But I really like Tank Girl.

Funny, I'm pretty sure the comics are better.

 

[Recidiva]

Funny, I'm pretty sure the comics are better.

Only if they can shout "Two dollars and fifteen cents!"

But I bet they go on longer and the kangaroo guys don't look so...uh...80s. I'll take your word for it. Oooh. There's a Kindle version. Sold.

 

[Bramblethorn]

or female dwarves.

In LotR (film), when Gimli starts telling Eowyn about how it's impossible to tell dwarf women from men because they all have beards, I always like to interpret it as Gimli dropping a little hint in the first person.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I was going to say Kili, but he looks like a Real Boy, no matter how pretty they cast him.
Fili, though... he's the sleeper

 

[Recidiva]

Thorin. Overcompensating.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thorin. Overcompensating.

If one third of dwarves are female and there are seven of them in this group, then there's going to be at least one more so...

 

[BrightlyGo]

It's not "us vs them", it's that you honestly can't speak to that which you don't know-- you don't know what it's like to be read as female.

And you don't know what it's like to be read as male. So, neither of us have a complete picture unless we listen to eachother.

And what you're doing is inserting a lot of "yeah, but men have it bad too"s. And the reason why that's frustrating and not particularly conducive to progress for anybody, can be found right here: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/

Nod. If anything, she's being generous - these kinds of issues can be brought up to derail and dismiss concerns quite intentionally. That's not what i'm doing, though, rather, i'm lending support to the issue, by saying "yes, and it's over here, too, it just looks different, and the negative consequences aren't exactly the same..."

As for the rest of your argument, change "geek culture" to "the entire world" and you've basically just negated the need for all safe spaces for everybody. And I don't think you really believe that.

i'm not sure i follow what you mean by 'safe spaces.' Is this one of those things where the point is to express frustrations with an issue, rather than to understand the issue or look for solutions?

Edit: researched 'safe spaces' a bit, and it sounds fairly straightforward, though there are, as always, multiple definitions...

But, yes, whether you're talking tiny sub-culture, or the entire mass of humanity, you're talking both men and women.

And, when you consider how women are treated by society, that society is both men and women...

And why is THAT? Where do you think they're getting their ideas from and who benefits? ...The fuckery runs so deep that we do it to ourselves just fine without help, but we didn't come up with this shit.

To be fair, no one came up with cultural gender roles - the idea of social engineering is a pretty new one and has yet to be applied so successfully as that. But culture is perpetuated by all its members, and changes to whatever degree over time as individuals change, as well. On the one hand, it seems impossible to change culture, on the other, just changing our own attitudes goes a little ways towards doing just that...

That is, we can all do /something/ to ameliorate the fucked up way our society (or sub-culture) treats people based on perceived gender/assigned sex, and we'd all benefit from doing so.

 

[KoPilot]

And you don't know what it's like to be read as male.

I don't, and that's fine, because that's not what this discussion is about.

Nod. If anything, she's being generous - these kinds of issues can be brought up to derail and dismiss concerns quite intentionally. That's not what i'm doing, though, rather, i'm lending support to the issue, by saying "yes, and it's over here, too, it just looks different, and the negative consequences aren't exactly the same..."

You didn't read all of the link, or you did selective reading, because a good portion of the post was precisely about well-intended derailing. If women in a women's space are telling you that you need to cut it out, going to such great lengths to justify yourself is the opposite of being a good feminist.

I'm going to leave the rest for someone else who isn't on a phone.

 

[Netzach]

To be fair, no one came up with cultural gender roles - the idea of social engineering is a pretty new one and has yet to be applied so successfully as that. But culture is perpetuated by all its members, and changes to whatever degree over time as individuals change, as well. On the one hand, it seems impossible to change culture, on the other, just changing our own attitudes goes a little ways towards doing just that...

That is, we can all do /something/ to ameliorate the fucked up way our society (or sub-culture) treats people based on perceived gender/assigned sex, and we'd all benefit from doing so.

This is not about fair. Fair has left the building, lol, helloooo.

You give people 8000 years of oppression and then you want to be even-steven equal airtime to everyone's pain in their OWN damn discussions? NO. How's that? No. I don't care if someone's a mouth breathing boob starer because he just didn't learn better, I'm tired of the excuses made in the arena of conventions from SM to SciFi to professional buttnugget gatherers of the Midwest. It's BOB's problem not Betty's when she's saying he's a creep. End discussion. I don't give a flying fuck how hard his life is anymore.

I'm sorry male identity has some sucky aspects, but you refuse to believe that it doesn't categorically suck to be read as male.

We don't need to feel your pain as men, because we already feel the pain of "buck up and stop complaining" and then when WE do it, we're bitchy and wrong. We have male relatives and friends and lovers and we're not stupid, we see how it sucks for them - and also how it does NOT suck for them. We identify with men even to our own detriment all-the-fucking-time.

I have a front row seat to the dissolution of male privilege for a very feminine, good-egg queer boy who is turning into a girl. I'm watching it. He would say it's completely crazy to talk about how hard he had it as a dude, outside of being miserable because he's not.

YES- you might have to worry about a larger frattier guy coming at you down the street, but when you're wearing a short skirt you're adding another million layers of worse onto it. Layers you can't possibly understand till you do it.

Educate yourself. You have a link - really read it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And you don't know what it's like to be read as male. So, neither of us have a complete picture unless we listen to eachother.

oddly enough, most women do know what that's like, you know why? Because men talk about it, one way or another, all the time. The experiences of being male permeate our culture, they are the normative, the standard, the comparison. "Being read as male" is the underlying theme of every action movie, every kid's cartoon every NYT best seller. Female, in this culture, means not-male, or failed-male. We talk about men and manliness and feminine men and geeky men and men boys and fathers and authority figures non stop.
Almost nothing passes the Bechtdel test, not even movies that are about women.

Nod. If anything, she's being generous - these kinds of issues can be brought up to derail and dismiss concerns quite intentionally. That's not what i'm doing, though, rather, i'm lending support to the issue, by saying "yes, and it's over here, too, it just looks different, and the negative consequences aren't exactly the same..."

You need to talk over there to the people over there.

i'm not sure i follow what you mean by 'safe spaces.' Is this one of those things where the point is to express frustrations with an issue, rather than to understand the issue or look for solutions?

Edit: researched 'safe spaces' a bit, and it sounds fairly straightforward, though there are, as always, multiple definitions...

Your definition does not apply to my safe space. I don't give a fuck what you think Im doing in it, it's not your space.

But, yes, whether you're talking tiny sub-culture, or the entire mass of humanity, you're talking both men and women.

And, when you consider how women are treated by society, that society is both men and women...

You need to consider that women already know this. Duh.

To be fair, no one came up with cultural gender roles - the idea of social engineering is a pretty new one and has yet to be applied so successfully as that. But culture is perpetuated by all its members, and changes to whatever degree over time as individuals change, as well. On the one hand, it seems impossible to change culture, on the other, just changing our own attitudes goes a little ways towards doing just that...

That is, we can all do /something/ to ameliorate the fucked up way our society (or sub-culture) treats people based on perceived gender/assigned sex, and we'd all benefit from doing so.

This lecturing you are doing here is nothing even close to the thing that you, in your position could be doing.

 

[Keroin]

We don't need to feel your pain as men, because we already feel the pain of "buck up and stop complaining" and then when WE do it, we're bitchy and wrong. We have male relatives and friends and lovers and we're not stupid, we see how it sucks for them - and also how it does NOT suck for them. We identify with men even to our own detriment all-the-fucking-time.

WORD.

 

[BrightlyGo]

oddly enough, most women do know what that's like, you know why? Because men talk about it, one way or another, all the time. The experiences of being male permeate our culture, they are the normative, the standard, the comparison. "Being read as male" is the underlying theme of every action movie, every kid's cartoon every NYT best seller.

You're exposed to tons of stereotypical portrayals of men, so you know what its like to be one? Would sitting through some chick flicks, a My Little Pony marathon, and reading some Erica Jong let a man know what it's like to be a woman? No.

Your definition does not apply to my safe space.

i just went looking and found multiple definitions, i don't know which one applies, here, nor why any of them would, for that matter. The forums seem fairly open - we're discussing geek culture in a BDSM board, afterall.

Female, in this culture, means not-male, or failed-male.

failed-male? After the hearing about education-as-deflection, i thought i better try to find what that meant in context, first. The thing that bubbled to the top of google was an article about an obscure 16th century text. Aristotle said something like that, too, iirc. But, genetically, males are just incomplete females. ::shrug::

Or is it 'failed male' in the sense of the way 'pussy' is thrown at guys who don't measure up to the standard of manliness? Certainly familiar with that one, and the irony of it...

...the thing that you, in your position could be doing.

i'm sorry, i missed the allusion here. What position do you mean? Geeky guy? i know what i'm am doing in that context - i consciously avoid making those kind of assumptions about the geeky girls i encounter, i don't go 'standing up for them,' in that context, because, really, that kind of white knight stuff is just more of the same.

What can i do here? Apparently, STFU, or annoy people i look up to.

c'est la internet

 

[Stella_Omega]

You're exposed to tons of stereotypical portrayals of men, so you know what its like to be one? Would sitting through some chick flicks, a My Little Pony marathon, and reading some Erica Jong let a man know what it's like to be a woman? No.

the key word there is "Tons."

TONNNNNS. TONS!!!!

Not merely a MLP marathon and one woman's novel, fuckass, thousands and thousands of movies, films, literature both fine and dimestore, every advertisement, every newspaper clipping.

Every single part of the cultural narrative is either from a male POV or about a male POV-- in all of its vast array.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself as a male. You want to add another color to the male spectrum, get cracking. I'll gladly be your ally-- I always was.

What can i do here? Apparently, STFU, or annoy people i look up to.

You can say "yes, I am listening, with intent to learn."

I hate and detest the fact that I, as a white woman have to STFU in order to not annoy the black women I look up to. It makes me feel sad and sidelined.

I feel that I have important things to add, things that would help them understand how badly racism harms whites, and things that would cause them to look kindly upon me and maybe pat my head for being such a staunch ally...

But I just do the STFU. Because really? I know good and goddamned well that they already know every thing I could possibly tell them.

Really, every black person in this country knows all about the white experience. We are swimming in a white soup.

Really, any woman who wants to, for any possible reason, can easily understand men. The material is everywhere.

 

[Keroin]

The forums seem fairly open - we're discussing geek culture in a BDSM board, afterall.

No. Read the thread title. We are discussing being a woman in geek culture.

 

[Recidiva]

No. Read the thread title. We are discussing being a woman in geek culture.

Even though games try, it's overwhelming that when gender isn't specifically split, it's considered to be male. So it's "admirable" to provide female options. Not expected.

Also, I'd really like terms like "man up" and "having balls" didn't indicate courage while being a "pussy" means cowardice.

I'd like to not have to consider it a compliment if someone finds me sexually attractive and is offended if I'm not interested in an overt and crude proposition.

I'd like to be represented.

I think Stella was very wise to say we're swimming in white and male culture. I share her views on that, and the views that other cultures are obscured and under represented. I live a fairly privileged life and I'm able to stand up for myself, but I'm not a victim, but neither am I blind to it.

This is not to say that I'm a feminist, because I'm not. I have male allies who get this entirely and females who perpetuate bullshit.

But the reality is that a man who is sympathetic to women's issues is a hero, not just a "man" and a woman who stands up for female issues is a "bitch" and not just a "woman."

My boundaries are in different places, but the skewing of the viewpoint is obvious to anybody taking an objective look down the barrel at the bullseye.

 

[satindesire]

What can i do here? Apparently, STFU, or annoy people i look up to.

Acknowledge that it sucks way worse for women that it ever has or ever will for men and that will be the status quo until we no longer have a Patriarchal society.

Privilege is hard to admit. Almost everyone has some form of Privilege and it goes against our own internal monologue to admit that. I'm in the process of coming to terms with my own forms of Privilege and you need to do that with yourself, too. I want to be an ally to POC and Non-Christians and the LGBT community, an in order to do that I need to self-reflect, research and educate myself. In order to be an ally to your female geek friends, you need to have the motivation to use the resources you have (the internet) to find out more about Male Privilege and Feminism.

Unfortunately, this is not the place where we can teach you. I want to make sure this is a safe place for -women- to come talk about the hardships of living in a Patriarchal culture without having to hear about how difficult it is to be a dude in a society that inherently sees you as superior to us just by the luck of your genetics/gender identity. To imply that men have it -just as bad- minimizes the very real issues that women face on a day-to-day basis. You probably aren't doing that on purpose, but that's what's happening right now.

I know that it can be really hard to not take it personally, this thread I mean and basically anything else you see in Feminism. You're a guy and so when we talk about Patriarchal Culture and Male Privilege, your first instinct will be to get offended. "I'm a man but I'm not like that! I swear!" That's natural. I did it too, not too long ago. But you have to swallow that defensiveness because no one is directly blaming you for all the hardships that women face. If you clam up and get defensive, you're going to be less likely to be able to listen without trying to defend yourself.

The first thing you have to do is understand, when you read stuff like this thread, that Feminists don't hate men or blame all men for women's problems. We understand that the Patriarchal system we live in is not -one specific man-'s idea. What you can do, if you really want to help us, is try really hard not to take it personally, realize we aren't blaming you and don't hate you, and -really listen- when we're talking. That's a really good start on what you can do.

I'm not perfect, hell, far from it. It's natural that you want to feel picked on or defensive. We aren't attacking YOU, we're upset that the world we live in hurts us just because we're female.

 

[Keroin]

Every single part of the cultural narrative is either from a male POV or about a male POV-- in all of its vast array.

Exactly. I "get" men. On top of everything Stella described, I am married to one. I have a direct line to the male experience. It is impossible for us to not understand men--everything is MAN.

I hate and detest the fact that I, as a white woman have to STFU in order to not annoy the black women I look up to. It makes me feel sad and sidelined.

I feel that I have important things to add, things that would help them understand how badly racism harms whites, and things that would cause them to look kindly upon me and maybe pat my head for being such a staunch ally...

But I just do the STFU. Because really? I know good and goddamned well that they already know every thing I could possibly tell them.

Oh I get this. I am completely guilty of not STFU-ing in the past. I've learned my lesson. Oh yes, I have experienced racism in places I've lived where I am the visible minority who does not speak the language, but I'm still coming from a place of privilege, comparatively.

I'd like to be represented.

Yep.

I live a fairly privileged life and I'm able to stand up for myself, but I'm not a victim, but neither am I blind to it.

Very much this. Personally, my life is pretty damn good and I'm in a place where I don't have to deal with raging misogyny any more. But I have seen/experienced/am well aware of it, both in the geek world and in all walks of life.

This is not to say that I'm a feminist, because I'm not. I have male allies who get this entirely and females who perpetuate bullshit.

Interestingly, I now claim that label. I've always been anti-label but I've taken on atheist and feminist this year for a very specific reason: I fit the bill and I want to represent.

Unfortunately, this is not the place where we can teach you. I want to make sure this is a safe place for -women- to come talk about the hardships of living in a Patriarchal culture without having to hear about how difficult it is to be a dude in a society that inherently sees you as superior to us just by the luck of your genetics/gender identity. To imply that men have it -just as bad- minimizes the very real issues that women face on a day-to-day basis. You probably aren't doing that on purpose, but that's what's happening right now.

Well put, Satin.

BrightlyGo, it's as if our house is burning and you're pointing at your house and saying, "My thermostat is stuck on high so my house is really hot too!" instead of asking how you can help put out our fire.

 

[BiBunny]

Interestingly, I now claim that label. I've always been anti-label but I've taken on atheist and feminist this year for a very specific reason: I fit the bill and I want to represent.

I've called myself a feminist ever since I realized there was a word for it. Recently, I've considered discarding it because I really don't agree with what appears to be the mainstream views of contemporary feminism.

But I can't talk myself into throwing it out altogether. I am feminist in that I believe in the equality of men and women, and damn you if you don't like it. The fact that the most vocal part of modern feminism, at least on the Interwebz, has gone off into LaLa Land isn't my fault, and it doesn't mean that I can't roll my eyes at it and still claim the label.

As for the religion bit, I still haven't figured out how to explain THAT one in 25 words or less.

Er, forgive the tangent. That part of your post just made me think about something I've been giving a lot of consideration to lately.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I really don't agree with what appears to be the mainstream views of contemporary feminism.

Neither do I. But if Mainstream society decided to define 'horse" as an animal with a bad temper and a hump... horses would still exist. They still wouldn't be camels.

 

[KoPilot]

Neither do I. But if Mainstream society decided to define 'horse" as an animal with a bad temper and a hump... horses would still exist. They still wouldn't be camels.

A pile of dung by any other name would reek just as strong.

 

[Keroin]

The fact that the most vocal part of modern feminism, at least on the Interwebz, has gone off into LaLa Land isn't my fault, and it doesn't mean that I can't roll my eyes at it and still claim the label.

This is the reason I resisted the label for so long. I didn't want to be associated with those feminists, the radicals, the ones who seemed distinctly anti-men and didn't represent me at all.

Then I realized, just as you have, that I can still be a feminist and not agree with others that claim the label. In fact, if more people like me claim it, maybe people will have less reason to write it off as extreme and man-hating.

I love men. Men are awesome. I just want equality and justice for my gender. The end.

As for the religion bit, I still haven't figured out how to explain THAT one in 25 words or less.

Oh that's a whole other kettle of kittens. But my reasons for taking the label are exactly the same as above.

 

[Netzach]

Which kind of feminism are we "not" here? Radfem? I'm shitty at it and I don't live up to it, but they're not WRONG, they're just unrealistic and stringent. La la la slutwalk whee Jezebel feminism? Some usefulness, limited. I think images are important but not as important as they do. Ms. Mag straight white wimmin's problems are the whole world's problems feminism? NYT how to parent on a one-percenter budget woe-is me "feminism?" Too often that's seen as non-threatning - scary. Very scary.

I'm much MUCH more worried about aligning myself with that than with radicalized feminism and womanism and women of color and intersectionality and all that. I'm much more of the mind that radfem goes up its own butt in other ways than "oh it makes men sad" and THOSE are the ways I worry about and can't be down with. OK, they have problems that I'm bi, and a SM freak. Frankly those are low-priority enough issues in the world that I can shut up about them and keep them to myself in context.

I used to get very upset about that, and then I realized that my gramma doesn't have to approve of or know everything I do in order to be wise.

I'm very pleased to consider myself feminist, small f.

 

[KoPilot]

Personally, I'm thinking "biowoman" transphobic feminism and the kind that really doesn't give a rats ass about intersctionality.