Bflag's Pleasures of Criticism

[bflagsst]

http://www.literotica.com/p/sign-language-1

any thoughts on this would be appreciated

Stare at my hands and dare them to speak

[I'm a connoisseur of first lines and this one is excellent.]

the scars that blink as they move

[This line I didn't quite get the blinking image. Unhealed cuts can be seen to open and close, but scars blinking?]

tri-tone paint splattered callouses

[Does tri-tone have significance? Or are you just talking about paint on hands?]

mix with fresh cut skin

[Maybe this answers my blinking query, cut skin and all.]

Fingers thick and clumsy
beaten and moulded
by heavy weights, hard work
and hours of hitting a heavy bag

[You've already shown us the character is a hard worker. There's no need to actually say it out loud.]

they have punched brick
smashed plasterboard
one knuckle still in two
from an errant tooth
in a bar room brawl

[Two/Tooth nice partial rhyme, so far your sound elements have barely teetered you away from prose. Alliteration is kind of the last outpost from the tradition. I think they still weed out accidental alliteration from novels in editing.]

the story they most want to tell
is the day they held you

gentle
and shaking wept
for fear they were too clumsy
to hold your fragility
a triumph as we cradled you
to our heart

[I feel like a comma or change in break is necessary somewhere between "held you...too clumsy". Repetition of "clumsy" seems like a missed opportunity, it's an identical meaning. The "we" is out of place, this third other is awkwardly introduced when the entire poem was a 'from me to you' not quite Lennon/Mccartney reflection.]
....
'Triumph' is a good word, Sign Language is a good poem. My main issue is that the one being spoken to/of isn't aware of the details of the hands, can't begin to wonder about their character. So the poem exists for some future grown baby to unlock and has a great deal to offer that individual in sentimentality while right now it offers me very little emotively. As a father I would be happy to leave such a nice poem for my grown children.

To conclude:

Foehn's narrator wrote a poem about and for his daughter, so as a reader I was able to share with him the joy of fatherhood at face value and also a separate unbridled joy in his experience of loving some-thing wholly un-pin-a-down-able. Sign Language is fairly polished, it's fine as is really. If you ask me is it a good poem, I've answered that. If you're interested in why it's not a great poem, I don't think I could answer that.

 

[bogusagain]

Why do physics papers sound obscure to non-physicists?

Physics is science and is not esoteric and is perfectly understandable and open to challenge by anyone who cares to challenge it. It is not in an ivory tower.

BTW I thought poetry was an art and an attempt to communicate, not an esoteric language for a group of insiders.

 

[Senna Jawa]

BTW I thought poetry was an art and an attempt to communicate, not an esoteric language for a group of insiders.

Because _esoteric_ should be spelled _BS & bluff.

 

[pelegrino]

Because _esoteric_ should be spelled _BS & bluff.

If you mean "bullshit", Senna, I agree.

 

[pelegrino]

Physics is science and is not esoteric and is perfectly understandable and open to challenge by anyone who cares to challenge it. It is not in an ivory tower.

BTW I thought poetry was an art and an attempt to communicate, not an esoteric language for a group of insiders.

Physics as a science is trying to explain an outer nature whereas it could be said that Poetry as an art is doing so with the inner, "esoteric" nature of things, but that is not always so, it has to deal sometimes with the "outer" as well. But having said that, I wholeheartedly agree that its prime objective is/should be communication that is not between insiders but strait forward and for the whole population, though we may be well aware that as in all other human endeavors, we also have here the sects, the insiders, the bluffers and bullshiters as Seena probably puts it.
I believe that the biggest malady of poetry now a days is its choice of subjects. Those subjects don't relate to ordinary human life (I mean, who would give a fuck about what kind of horses Hana loved, in the way that this premise was pout into "poetic"(?) words?), and that is why people turn their back on poetry. Unfortunately devil takes the good with him together with the bad.
I still cannot believe how much time, effort and valuable analysis has been spent so far on a mediocre poem/poet by so many far more talented authors in themselves. Perhaps the lesson is that we should do sometimes this exercise as a perfect example of "what to avoid" when writing.

 

[bflagsst]

Physics is science and is not esoteric and is perfectly understandable and open to challenge by anyone who cares to challenge it. It is not in an ivory tower.

BTW I thought poetry was an art and an attempt to communicate, not an esoteric language for a group of insiders.

Physics by definition is of an esoteric nature(probably the highest of all the ivory towers) and an attempt to communicate ideas ie A precise study of the world that only a select few are initiated in through 8+ years of learning.

A great poem should be legible to novice readers with a keen interest in poetry and a little learning. While a great poem can, but not always, include information that may seen obscure or even intentionally obfuscating to that novice.

The Young Earth Creationist might think they're challenging ivory tower orthodoxy and cutting through the esoteric nature of science, but they're just a sideshow carnival act in terms of expressing ideas about the world. There are plenty of YEC's in poetry who have no interest putting in the time and learning it takes to write, read, comprehend ideas that are very difficult to express.

If you think clear, minimalist language with some flowery or grimy imagery is all the technique you have to practice to express the entirety of the human experience, you're not doing it right.

Prose is capable of relating the words we use everyday in unique ways, great imagery, express emotion using common words and ideas. Prose is incapable of expressing the detail of emotion that we experience due to the limits of our everyday language.

There is information we have and can share that takes place before we speak. Poetry is essentially difficult and seemingly nebulous and obscure because of how it's able to precede everyday speech with new language construction. To say that poetry shouldn't attempt to clarify feelings and emotions and attempt to express genuinely complicated ideas is astounding.

Hence, why would you tell Dick Feynman to get rid of all that math in his paper on QED so that the high school physics teachers can understand it; not even the laypersons mind you, the guys who spent four years studying mostly Newtonian and relativistic physics.

 

[bflagsst]

... I wholeheartedly agree that its prime objective is/should be communication that is not between insiders but strait forward and for the whole population, though we may be well aware that as in all other human endeavors, we also have here the sects, the insiders, the bluffers and bullshiters as Seena probably puts it.

I believe that the biggest malady of poetry now a days is its choice of subjects. Those subjects don't relate to ordinary human life ...

I still cannot believe how much time, effort and valuable analysis has been spent so far on a mediocre poem/poet by so many far more talented authors in themselves. Perhaps the lesson is that we should do sometimes this exercise as a perfect example of "what to avoid" when writing.

Why do you believe there is this pool of people who will ever be willing to read poetry without also having an interest in writing it? People read news stories and novels without ever having an inkling of interest in writing them. Because poetry is a short form one might assume it's not a difficult task for any novice to fire up their tumblr and compose 8 lines that mimic their favorite pop songs, with a hint of recalled childhood nursery rhyme. I don't know why anyone would want to live in a world where there's a serious widespread interest in poetry but the quality of content is equivalent to Iggy Azalea's latest release.

Why bother with poetry if you want descriptions of everyday life? .99 cent short stories sell well on Amazon if you're an author, and there are many great free ones if you're a reader. Why even entertain the thought of writing poetry if you think that poems should primarily access ordinary human experiences and emotions?

The point of this thread is any exercise in poetic criticism can be fruitful for the critic/poet whatever the content being criticized.

 

[pelegrino]

Why do you believe there is this pool of people who will ever be willing to read poetry without also having an interest in writing it? People read news stories and novels without ever having an inkling of interest in writing them. Because poetry is a short form one might assume it's not a difficult task for any novice to fire up their tumblr and compose 8 lines that mimic their favorite pop songs, with a hint of recalled childhood nursery rhyme. I don't know why anyone would want to live in a world where there's a serious widespread interest in poetry but the quality of content is equivalent to Iggy Azalea's latest release.

Why bother with poetry if you want descriptions of everyday life? .99 cent short stories sell well on Amazon if you're an author, and there are many great free ones if you're a reader. Why even entertain the thought of writing poetry if you think that poems should primarily access ordinary human experiences and emotions?

The point of this thread is any exercise in poetic criticism can be fruitful for the critic/poet whatever the content being criticized.

I believe that poetry should be there for recreation and for instruction. Not all people were born to be poets nor do they have to write poems.
Recreation and instruction to me is the very historical role of poetry. That is how it was generated (out of historical need)in the first civilizations, that is how it survived up to date and that is how it should continue.
You define "every day reality" in a very narrow sense. My definition is "all inclusive" which means that poetry can talk about everything that is experienced by humans, including physics if you want, but physics cannot really talk about poetry. My reference to "choice of subject" is what you would call "socio-political". I prefer poetry to be so. To have an interest in ordinary and extraordinary human affairs and not in "green horses", as we say here in Greece, ("pink elephants" to you).
Think of it this way also: If we want to draw away from Amazon some potential readers of poetry what alternative do we propose to them so far?

I agree with your last sentence. Speaking for myself, I also learnt quite a few things, therefore I appreciate what you do. Carry on!

 

[bogusagain]

Physics by definition is of an esoteric nature(probably the highest of all the ivory towers)

Absolute claptrap. There is a methodology by which scientific enquiry is pursued that is understandable and open to everyone. Challenge to its theories and findings are encouraged because the more a theory withstands challenges, the greater the probability a theory is correct.

You've got to be a philistine of the highest order to claim physics is esoteric. Even the greatest physicists have often been proved wrong. No physicist is safe on a pedestal.

 

[bogusagain]

Why bother with poetry if you want descriptions of everyday life? .

Why bother with poetry if there is a right and a wrong form of poetry? Criticism is merely opinion spouted as knowledge.

What we see here is a similar argument to what has been going on in the visual arts for the last 100 years. The idea there is something specific that can be called art, against the idea that anything can be art as long as it communicates.

Poetry has more practitioners than readers in today's world. The so called top poets virtually have no audience. Trad poetry supporters are like a shopkeeper who, on seeing potential customers passing by their shop, instead of finding out why, simply goes outside and shouts insults after potential customers. 'You know fuck all, you ignorant twats!' (But in a more poetic language than that of course.)

A simple question. Why does poetry sell so few books? The average top poet, quite literally, sells a meagre number of books, enough to cover his/her family and friends, a few critics, a few public libraries and a couple of academies.

 

[bflagsst]

... If we want to draw away from Amazon some potential readers of poetry what alternative do we propose to them so far?
...!

My main criticism of contemporary poetry has been that it resembles prose too much and that is why there is little interest even as a niche within the hobby reading world. Potential readers might be exposed to popular/rewarded poetry but it doesn't draw them in for long because it's going to come across as nothing special as it tries to be a vestige of the short story.

 

[bflagsst]

Why bother with poetry if there is a right and a wrong form of poetry? Criticism is merely opinion spouted as knowledge.

What we see here is a similar argument to what has been going on in the visual arts for the last 100 years. The idea there is something specific that can be called art, against the idea that anything can be art as long as it communicates.

Poetry has more practitioners than readers in today's world. The so called top poets virtually have no audience. Trad poetry supporters are like a shopkeeper who, on seeing potential customers passing by their shop, instead of finding out why, simply goes outside and shouts insults after potential customers. 'You know fuck all, you ignorant twats!' (But in a more poetic language than that of course.)

A simple question. Why does poetry sell so few books? The average top poet, quite literally, sells a meagre number of books, enough to cover his/her family and friends, a few critics, a few public libraries and a couple of academies.

My main criticism of contemporary poetry has been that it resembles prose too much and that is why there is little interest even as a niche within the hobby reading world. Potential readers might be exposed to popular/rewarded poetry but it doesn't draw them in for long because it's going to come across as nothing special as it tries to be a vestige of the short story.

The difference between the esoteric club of physics and that of poetry is physics accepts its very difficult set of tools, regards itself as an exclusive club for good reason and shames or just ignores its members who aren't up to snuff in their mathematics, history, experimental techniques. The movement that says anything is poetry as long as it expresses just makes poetry a club no one wants to join because if Tumblr Tim's 8 lines about his girlfriend breaking up with him are as representative of an art form as Foehn's poem about his daughter, then what's the point?

 

[bflagsst]

Wednesday Ideas for Improving as a Poet

Learn traditional techniques by imitating the sounds brought out in form poetry.

Sound is more important than meaning when learning how to write, as constructing complex symbols and metaphor is the more difficult task.

The sound mechanics will assist you in learning the more difficult task.

Free verse and good prose poetry rely on techniques developed through learning how to say something under form restraints.

For example, here's a prose poem(and not just prose mimicking poetry) from an author who has won multiple publishing grants:

http://www.onibuchanan.com/poetry_samples_girls.html

 

[bogusagain]

The difference between the esoteric club of physics and that of poetry is physics accepts its very difficult set of tools, regards itself as an exclusive club for good reason and shames or just ignores its members who aren't up to snuff in their mathematics, history, experimental techniques. The movement that says anything is poetry as long as it expresses just makes poetry a club no one wants to join because if Tumblr Tim's 8 lines about his girlfriend breaking up with him are as representative of an art form as Foehn's poem about his daughter, then what's the point?

Physics doesn't regard itself as an exclusive club. Science is always being gatecrashed by party poopers and they are welcomed in because alternative theories only strengthen science and knowledge.

Trad poetry inhabits an ivory tower. It is an art form that is on the whole unwelcoming and lacks the communication skills poets claim to possess. One often gets the impression with many poets, riff-raff aren't welcome in the ivory tower.

I'll leave you to it.

 

[butters]

*wonders how raff is my riff*

 

[butters]

could it be the difference between poetry and prose boils down to

art for art's sake, money for god's sake?

 

[Senna Jawa]

If you mean "bullshit", Senna, I agree.

Right, pelegrino, the standard abbreviation: BS = bullshit.

 

[Magnetron]

could it be the difference between poetry and prose boils down to

art for art's sake, money for god's sake?

Perhaps until there is a demand for poetry.

And long fiction requires a certain amount dedication in finishing something longwinded. There are more ducks to be kept in a row and more editing to be done in the end.

 

[Angeline]

Learn traditional techniques by imitating the sounds brought out in form poetry.

Sound is more important than meaning when learning how to write, as constructing complex symbols and metaphor is the more difficult task.

The sound mechanics will assist you in learning the more difficult task.

Free verse and good prose poetry rely on techniques developed through learning how to say something under form restraints.

For example, here's a prose poem(and not just prose mimicking poetry) from an author who has won multiple publishing grants:

http://www.onibuchanan.com/poetry_samples_girls.html

Excellent advice imho.

 

[Senna Jawa]

[...] Mozart represented the oppressive establishment.

I beg your pardon?--Represented ?

Is it just the Sex Pistols' view or your--bogusagain--too?

 

[Senna Jawa]

[...] (I mean, who would give a fuck about what kind of horses Hana loved, in the way that this premise was pout into "poetic"(?) words?),

This is not the issue here. Among the old date American poetry instructors and poetry lovers it was accepted that mostly it is not WHAT you say but HOW.

Digression--These people knew quite a bit about the issue but still had problems with HOW.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Physics is science and is not esoteric and is perfectly understandable and open to challenge by anyone who cares to challenge it. It is not in an ivory tower.

Theoretica physics (and mathematics, and science) is democratic. You do not have to have aristocratic background or be rich to be a physicist. Otherwise, NO--try this challenge. You will work hard for ten years, bogusagain, and nothing, you will not get any significant result. Most likely you will not even come close to get a WORKING understanding of theoretical physics. Many people can play a reporter, many can state oh-so-philosophical opinions, but very few (in terms of percentage of the population) have the talent to be able to really understand the subject. One needs to work hard, but also the talent is a MUST.

Thus, while being democratic, physics still is very-very esoteric.

 

[pelegrino]

I beg your pardon?--Represented ?

Is it just the Sex Pistols' view or your--bogusagain--too?

Mozart (1756-1791) represented the latest developments in European mainstream music in the years that he lived.
That is all he represented as far as we are concerned. He was the Avant Garde of his time in terms of music. This is of course an "educated" but still objective view on his particular case. The Sex Pistols' lack of musical education makes their view on him very subjective an uninteresting. Their political "critique" of his social stance is also very incorrect, uneducated and laughable in the sense that as a working musician he was offering his musical services to patrons in order to make a living, the same as they did in their time.
Am I right or am I right?

(sorry for the digression)

 

[bogusagain]

Thus, while being democratic, physics still is very-very esoteric.

es·o·ter·ic (s-trk)
adj.
1.
a. Intended for or understood by only a particular group: an esoteric cult. See Synonyms at mysterious.
b. Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number of people.
2.
a. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
b. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.

Physics is not esoteric because it is not meant for a particular group, it is open to everyone.

Poetry is not esoteric because everyone can take part. It is a particular type of of high priest poet that is prevailent who is esoteric, those who claim their interpretation of poetry is the only true poetry that is the problem. Personally, I think there is a lot of jealousy involved because popular poetry out sells trad. poetry by hundreds of books to one.

 

[todski28]

Stare at my hands and dare them to speak

[I'm a connoisseur of first lines and this one is excellent.]

the scars that blink as they move

[This line I didn't quite get the blinking image. Unhealed cuts can be seen to open and close, but scars blinking?]

tri-tone paint splattered callouses

[Does tri-tone have significance? Or are you just talking about paint on hands?]

mix with fresh cut skin

[Maybe this answers my blinking query, cut skin and all.]

Fingers thick and clumsy
beaten and moulded
by heavy weights, hard work
and hours of hitting a heavy bag

[You've already shown us the character is a hard worker. There's no need to actually say it out loud.]

they have punched brick
smashed plasterboard
one knuckle still in two
from an errant tooth
in a bar room brawl

[Two/Tooth nice partial rhyme, so far your sound elements have barely teetered you away from prose. Alliteration is kind of the last outpost from the tradition. I think they still weed out accidental alliteration from novels in editing.]

the story they most want to tell
is the day they held you

gentle
and shaking wept
for fear they were too clumsy
to hold your fragility
a triumph as we cradled you
to our heart

[I feel like a comma or change in break is necessary somewhere between "held you...too clumsy". Repetition of "clumsy" seems like a missed opportunity, it's an identical meaning. The "we" is out of place, this third other is awkwardly introduced when the entire poem was a 'from me to you' not quite Lennon/Mccartney reflection.]
....
'Triumph' is a good word, Sign Language is a good poem. My main issue is that the one being spoken to/of isn't aware of the details of the hands, can't begin to wonder about their character. So the poem exists for some future grown baby to unlock and has a great deal to offer that individual in sentimentality while right now it offers me very little emotively. As a father I would be happy to leave such a nice poem for my grown children.

To conclude:

Foehn's narrator wrote a poem about and for his daughter, so as a reader I was able to share with him the joy of fatherhood at face value and also a separate unbridled joy in his experience of loving some-thing wholly un-pin-a-down-able. Sign Language is fairly polished, it's fine as is really. If you ask me is it a good poem, I've answered that. If you're interested in why it's not a great poem, I don't think I could answer that.

thank you for the critique bflaggst hope someone else steps up for you to look at their work it really is interesting seeing what you see and what your opinion is on my poetry