Biden to Propose New Minimum Tax on Wealthiest Americans

[Gorgoroth]

The value of a dollar is only the amount of goods it buys. Nobody works for the money..they work for the things the money buys.

The number on the bill is not relevant.

That's what the right has been trying to tell the "9/15/20/25/30/hr!!! " idiots on the left for years now.

You can't force the value of a minimum, entry level low/no skill labor up by assigning it an artificially inflated value.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Tax rates are a normative issue. Political arguments over normative issues resemble shouting matches between deaf people. Each side appeals to values and concerns the other side does not have. I like arguments over empirical issues. Those are debates where facts and insights and conclusions that can logically be derived from those facts matter. I like numbers on paper. That is why I enjoy pointing out that most Americans desire a more progressive tax system, and have done so for a long time.

An appeal to popularity doesn't really support the notion of facts and numbers over feelings.

Quite the opposite.

Facts and numbers say we simply have a bad budget problem for a laundry list of reasons and "Hose anyone with 5 dollars more than me!! That is FAIR!!! " is an emotional and wildly immature position at best.

Raising taxes on the well to do is the strongest issue the Democrats have. I hope they make the best of it.

It's not, because it's an emotional position that allows them to ignore the real world problems facing our country.

I hope they grow up and realize taxing imaginary wealth that doesn't exist because it sounds good on CNN/MSNBC is like putting a scooby doo band-aid solution for a severed limb level problem.

 

[ll74]

That's what the right has been trying to tell the "9/15/20/25/30/hr!!! " idiots on the left for years now.

You can't force the value of a minimum, entry level low/no skill labor up by assigning it an artificially inflated value.

If a job is worth a loaf of bread. Then it is worth a toaf of bread.. if a loaf of bread costs more, and the job value doesn't change, then the money increases to accommodate.

Before money, the value was easier...since then, idiots like you obfuscate what value means

 

[The_Trouvere]

An appeal to popularity doesn't really support the notion of facts and numbers over feelings.

Quite the opposite.

The fact is most Americans want the well to do to pay higher taxes.

 

[Gorgoroth]

If a job is worth a loaf of bread. Then it is worth a toaf of bread.. if a loaf of bread costs more, and the job value doesn't change, then the money increases to accommodate.

No, it doesn't.

That's why minimum wage at 15/hr today is still sucking the same ass 7/hr was 20 years ago.

Minimum value workers still have to work all day to get what skilled labor or someone like me makes in an hour or less.

Before money, the value was easier...since then, idiots like you obfuscate what value means

No, it actually wasn't easier.

That's why money is more popular than barter. It's objectively superior.

You just don't like it because it puts a number on the value, which cuts down the actual obfuscation of value, which is what all the eternally going up minimum wage warriors who don't understand value vs. dollar are doing.

 

[Gorgoroth]

The fact is most Americans want the well to do to pay higher taxes.

Yes I understand you have an appeal to popular opinion on your side.

It's still not fair, equitable nor does it give any reason as to why the more productive people should pay a higher percentage of their income OR pay rent "wealth" taxes to rent their wealth that they already paid taxes on from the state.

And even less so taxes on "unrealized capital gains" ...... taxing people for wealth that doesn't actually exist is bat shit crazy. Peak chimp rage level wealth envy.

 

[pecksniff]

It's the shape of society that matters. Any tax system that flattens the pyramid is a good one.

 

[Gorgoroth]

It's the shape of society that matters. Any tax system that flattens the pyramid is a good one.

Based on what???

What is objectively good about it???

And if that were true why is N. Korea not the world leading ultra-power???

 

[ll74]

No, it doesn't.

That's why minimum wage at 15/hr today is still sucking the same ass 7/hr was 20 years ago.

Minimum value workers still have to work all day to get what skilled labor or someone like me makes in an hour or less.



No, it actually wasn't easier.

That's why money is more popular than barter. It's objectively superior.

You just don't like it because it puts a number on the value, which cuts down the actual obfuscation of value, which is what all the eternally going up minimum wage warriors who don't understand value vs. dollar are doing.

I'm glad you get the point. Those who say the value of a job doesn't change without acknowledging that the number on the money doesn't actually adequately represent that value are full of shit.

Kids in my neighborhood charge $20-25 for mowing the lawns. The value of that job hasn't changed since I charged $7. That's why they charge what they do

 

[Gorgoroth]

I'm glad you get the point. Those who say the value of a job doesn't change without acknowledging that the number on the money doesn't actually adequately represent that value are full of shit.

No they aren't full of shit.

Your fee fees about what is adequate is the only shit and you're full of it.

If people are willing to work for it, then it's adequate. Your fee fees don't factor into it.

Kids in my neighborhood charge $20-25 for mowing the lawns. The value of that job hasn't changed since I charged $7.

No it hasn't.

That's why they charge what they do

No, the value of the dollar has been degraded, that's why they charge what they do.

 

[ll74]

No, the value of the dollar has been degraded, that's why they charge what they do.

Correct...you don't measure value of work in dollars

Thanks for confirming again

 

[Gorgoroth]

Correct...

Yes.

you don't measure value of work in dollars

Wrong.... that's exactly what you and everyone exchanging currency does.

Thanks for confirming again

Your inability to understand value vs. dollars and your need to obfuscate and confuse the two are the only things I have confirmed here.

 

[The_Trouvere]

Yes I understand you have an appeal to popular opinion on your side.

It's still not fair, equitable nor does it give any reason as to why the more productive people should pay a higher percentage of their income OR pay rent "wealth" taxes to rent their wealth that they already paid taxes on from the state.

And even less so taxes on "unrealized capital gains" ...... taxing people for wealth that doesn't actually exist is bat shit crazy. Peak chimp rage level wealth envy.

I post facts. You post feelings. The way you feel about things are not truths. They are facts about you.

 

[Gorgoroth]

I post facts.

So do I.

You post feelings.

I'm not the one who made an appeal to popular opinion when I couldn't argue that taxing the shit out of the rich isn't fair.

I think everyone paying the same % of every dollar they make, no exceptions or exemptions, is actually fair.

The way you feel about things are not truths. They are facts about you.

You should take your own advice.

 

[The_Trouvere]

So do I.



You're the one who made the appeal to popularity instead of making a fact based argument.

Not me.



You should take your own advice.

What have I said that is not true?

 

[Champakian]

The fact is most Americans want the well to do to pay higher taxes.

That's not an American thing, that is basal human nature,
the evil/sin of greed; take his, not mine,
he has more...

That's why you're such a fan of "soaking the rich."
You have no understanding of economics and passing the cost of business on to the consumer.
(In other words, every time you force more taxes upon the wealthy, they extract it from you at the POS.)

We can end all of the internecine economic squabbling with the FairTax.org,
which is why the Left hates it; they need "evil" targets like the wealthy
in order to advance their emotional appeals for power/control.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

That's not an American thing, that is basal human nature,
the evil/sin of greed; take his, not mine,
he has more...

That's why you're such a fan of "soaking the rich."
You have no understanding of economics and passing the cost of business on to the consumer.
(In other words, every time you force more taxes upon the wealthy, they extract it from you at the POS.)

We can end all of the internecine economic squabbling with the FairTax.org,
which is why the Left hates it; they need "evil" targets like the wealthy
in order to advance their emotional appeals for power/control.

No one has advocated that.

 

[Champakian]

Learn to read and comprehend instead of reading to emote...

 

[LittleDixie]

Who gave you the authority to be the arbiter of what is right or wrong? Since the inauguration of Ronald Reagan the rich have been paying lower taxes on more money. I am unaware that they are working any harder than they were during the 1950's. The rest of the country has not benefited. Tax cuts for the rich mean tax increases on the majority, cuts in programs that benefit us, and/or more national debt.

Most Americans want the rich to pay higher taxes. Most Americans would benefit as a result.

Stealing is wrong.

Taking money from people without their permission is stealing.

It doesn't matter how many people agree with it. It doesn't matter if it's in the law. It doesn't matter if the people who did it have badges. It doesn't matter if people really really want the money. It doesn't matter that you are taking less of their money than you have in the past. It doesn't matter if you don't think they earned their money. It doesn't matter if they have double what you do, or triple, or a hundred times more...

If you take money from people without their permission, you are a thief.

It's that simple.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Stealing is wrong.

Taking money from people without their permission is stealing.

It doesn't matter how many people agree with it. It doesn't matter if it's in the law. It doesn't matter if the people who did it have badges. It doesn't matter if people really really want the money. It doesn't matter that you are taking less of their money than you have in the past. It doesn't matter if you don't think they earned their money. It doesn't matter if they have double what you do, or triple, or a hundred times more...

If you take money from people without their permission, you are a thief.

It's that simple.

It's not without their permission.

They are free to leave and not have any public services or infrastructure in some backwater 3rd world shit hole.

Civilized societies require civil services, that requires taxes.

The question for sane people is HOW the taxation is done. Is the taxation honest and fair?? Or is it dishonest, progressive and rent seeking.... Liberals and conservatives tend to favor the former. Progressive and socialistic lefties obviously favor the latter due to basic chimp rage and wealth envy.

 

[LittleDixie]

It's not without their permission.

They are free to leave and not have any public services or infrastructure in some backwater 3rd world shit hole.

Civilized societies require civil services, that requires taxes.

The question for sane people is HOW the taxation is done. Is the taxation honest and fair?? Or is it dishonest, progressive and rent seeking.... Liberals and conservatives tend to favor the former. Progressive and socialistic lefties obviously favor the latter due to basic chimp rage and wealth envy.

I am not a total anarchist. I believe that there are some needs of a society that won't be served on an individual basis, and can't be properly funded through private for profit businesses. So, at the heart of it, I believe that some taxes are an odious reality. They are a necessary evil, but their necessity does not make them good. The need does not make the taking without permission moral.

We need to recognize that taxes are imposed on citizens. We need to see clearly that we are forcing people (under the threat of violence and imprisonment) to pay the government. This is a form of slavery. The government needs to be contrite about this. The government needs to recognize the evil it is doing and to do absulutely everything it it's power to do the right thing with that money.

You're right about taxation needing to be honest and fair. I've liked a lot of the posts you've made here lately - you and I are on the same page.

But, I like returning to principle whenever I can. And as much as my minarchist utopia fantasy requires taxes, I can't bring myself to call them anything but a necessary evil.

 

[The_Trouvere]

You have no understanding of economics and passing the cost of business on to the consumer.
(In other words, every time you force more taxes upon the wealthy, they extract it from you at the POS.)

You will agree with me that Democrat governments frequently raise taxes on the rich, while Republican governments frequently cut them, and never raise them.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/02inpetr.pdf

The U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis has created a chart of fluctuations in the per capita gross domestic product (GDP) in 1996 dollars from 1920 to 2002. From 1921 to 2000 we had a Republican president for forty years, and a Democrat president for another forty years. During this time there was over twice as much economic growth under Democrat presidents as under Republican presidents.

http://www.singularity.com/charts/page99.html

According to a Wall Street Journal article that appeared Jan 9, 2009 from the presidency of Harry Truman to that of George W. Bush there have nearly always been more jobs created under Democratic presidents as under Republican presidents.

The top tax rate was 70% under Jimmy Carter. When he was president an average of 2,600,000 jobs were created per year. When Ronald Reagan was president the top tax rate declined to 28%. An average of 2,000,000 jobs were created every year.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-REB-2534

https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x416274

 

[Champakian]

Honest? Fair? Voluntary?

FairTax.org

 

[Champakian]

You will agree with me that Democrat governments frequently raise taxes on the rich, while Republican governments frequently cut them, and never raise them.

...

That's exactly what I addressed while you're still pointing out the benefit to the glazier of The Broken Window.

Bastiat

 

[The_Trouvere]

Stealing is wrong.

Taking money from people without their permission is stealing.

It doesn't matter how many people agree with it. It doesn't matter if it's in the law. It doesn't matter if the people who did it have badges. It doesn't matter if people really really want the money. It doesn't matter that you are taking less of their money than you have in the past. It doesn't matter if you don't think they earned their money. It doesn't matter if they have double what you do, or triple, or a hundred times more...

If you take money from people without their permission, you are a thief.

It's that simple.

What you feel are not truths. They are facts about you, and not very interesting facts.