Brainwashing/Cult

[broken_halo]

ok and this quote is not snide? "Having read that, I really don't get the question, just a wee headache. Seems like the answers are right in there.

Or weren't you asking a question? If you were trying to call our attention to a potential difficulty and situation, you've succeeded, but I still don't see where there's a question. "



point blank from the first post i asked questions and everyone seems to want to avoid the issue that abuse happens in any kind of lifestyle that you live. It is reality and it happens.

Risia i hope your post draws more success then mine did in pointing out that abuse happens. Making others understand it for what it is no matter how we live our life. Thank you.

 

[lilfrk]

I've tried to answer your question several times and you ignore me. I don't know what more you want from me. I guess I don't understand what you are talking about either.

 

[broken_halo]

I've tried to answer your question several times and you ignore me. I don't know what more you want from me. I guess I don't understand what you are talking about either.

Hmmm, that is too bad, because at first i thought you were about the only one that understood. At least it seems as though you did. It however was pointed out for the most part, people were avoiding the issue of abuse. Not wanting to relize that this is a not so perfect world that we live in.

 

[Trainerman]

imho, for what it is worth

Is it a "dumb down" question...or is it more complicated? In essence, a bit of both. The complication arises if one tries to deeply analise WHY someone lets these things happen to them. As someone whose father always used emotional blackmail and any other tool he could to get his way (including beating my mother up), it seems obvious to me that people FORCE others, either covertly or overtly, into doing what they want...in any walk of life and for any reason !!

Even IF that includes sex and even IF that includes "BDSM type activities" it is the same problem...there are nasty, manipulative people everywhere !!

The simple thing is the difference. Do you have safe word(s) with A CLEAR and SINCERE understanding that the 'sub' will not suffer in anyway (including emotional blackmail) for using them? In a 'vanilla' relationship, my first wish was to make my partner happy and fullfilled. In a BDSM relationship ditto !! The difference lies right there..in the SSC and CHOICE the 'sub' always has.

I feel great sympathy for the two people described earlier....I remember my mother !! But whilst we can discuss this (and maybe should)...it is a case of escape dangerous people as in any bad 'cult'

One of the BEST help and protection things in the BDSM community IS THIS FORUM...where those with little knowledge, (perhaps being pressurised by 'predators') can find truth, wisdom and friends !

Sorry it is so long...oh, and hello people

 

[petrel]

See, I don't consider these situations BDSM relationships. They certainly don't resemble the relationships we discuss here.

I couldn't agree more - these are not BDSM relationships these are abusive relationships.

My own opinion and choice in this matter would be to tell my friend that she needs to get out of the relationship. I've worked for a rape crises line and I cannot stand by and watch someone be abused.

Don't even mention BDSM because every time you do - by giving her links, reading material etc you are reinforcing the things her abusive partner has been telling her - that this abuse is realted to BDSM. Just walk in say
'honey, he's beating you up, you need to get out, you deserve better than this'
pack her a bag and take her home/to a hotel/safe house

I know its not that easy - I guess I just get fired up about this. Please think about it however, and remember the key thing
ABUSE IS NOT BDSM -

 

[BBD]

point blank from the first post i asked questions and everyone seems to want to avoid the issue that abuse happens in any kind of lifestyle that you live. It is reality and it happens.

Risia i hope your post draws more success then mine did in pointing out that abuse happens. Making others understand it for what it is no matter how we live our life. Thank you.

I think the reason it might seem that people are trying to avoid the issue you've raised is because of the way you've approached it. It doesn't matter if they call it BDSM or we call it BDSM. Whether it's BDSM or not doesn't even matter. It's an abusive relationship. You can ask this same question on the general boards without mentioning anything about BDSM and people there will say the same thing.


You said you started with some pretty dumbed-down questions:

i am wondering if brainwashing or cult (BDSM) has ever been discussed in this forum.
I can only guess at the answer to this. I haven't been around forever and haven't run a search for it. You might try a search yourself if nobody else can answer the question for you.

Has anyone ever known anyone that was brainwashed by their Master/Dom?
I think people have answered this, mostly by saying no...because they wouldn't consider brainwashing to be part of BDSM and therefore the person doing the brainwashing wouldn't be looked upon as a Master/Dom. In the example you give, they may say they're "in the lifestyle" but they're not. Not the way you describe it, and just saying it doesn't make it so.

Had any personal experiances with it or has done it to one of their slaves/subs themselves?
This really goes along with the last question, and as I said...seems like the answer has been no for the most part.

i am curious about this because it was brought to my attention the other day that this really happens, and i have never seen any discussions/information on this topic in to many places.
Now if this had been the main focus of your original post, I have a feeling those who had something to say on the matter would've chimed in more by now. But once again, you couched it in such a way that there were simple yes/no answers to be given...especially when it seems to be implying that this is the very nature of most BDSM relationships. People get a bit guarded about that type of thing.

And now I see petrel's last post and realize she said it better than me.

 

[broken_halo]

I think the reason it might seem that people are trying to avoid the issue you've raised is because of the way you've approached it. It doesn't matter if they call it BDSM or we call it BDSM. Whether it's BDSM or not doesn't even matter. It's an abusive relationship. You can ask this same question on the general boards without mentioning anything about BDSM and people there will say the same thing.


You said you started with some pretty dumbed-down questions:

i am wondering if brainwashing or cult (BDSM) has ever been discussed in this forum.
I can only guess at the answer to this. I haven't been around forever and haven't run a search for it. You might try a search yourself if nobody else can answer the question for you.

Has anyone ever known anyone that was brainwashed by their Master/Dom?
I think people have answered this, mostly by saying no...because they wouldn't consider brainwashing to be part of BDSM and therefore the person doing the brainwashing wouldn't be looked upon as a Master/Dom. In the example you give, they may say they're "in the lifestyle" but they're not. Not the way you describe it, and just saying it doesn't make it so.

Had any personal experiances with it or has done it to one of their slaves/subs themselves?
This really goes along with the last question, and as I said...seems like the answer has been no for the most part.

i am curious about this because it was brought to my attention the other day that this really happens, and i have never seen any discussions/information on this topic in to many places.
Now if this had been the main focus of your original post, I have a feeling those who had something to say on the matter would've chimed in more by now. But once again, you couched it in such a way that there were simple yes/no answers to be given...especially when it seems to be implying that this is the very nature of most BDSM relationships. People get a bit guarded about that type of thing.

And now I see petrel's last post and realize she said it better than me.

It must be you have totally skipped over Risia's post. Where she even says that people are afraid to talk about it. Maybe you should go back to what she said it seems to make more sense to me. People have not answerd the question, they have avoided it.

 

[BBD]

It must be you have totally skipped over Risia's post. Where she even says that people are afraid to talk about it. Maybe you should go back to what she said it seems to make more sense to me. People have not answerd the question, they have avoided it.

I'm sorry, I believe I was addressing you and not Risia. You're the one who complained about people ignoring your original questions. I went back and looked at them. Does that make sense to you?

 

[broken_halo]

I'm sorry, I believe I was addressing you and not Risia. You're the one who complained about people ignoring your original questions. I went back and looked at them. Does that make sense to you?

Listen, i dont have time for other peoples ignorance. You seem to see what you want to see, i see what i see, and EVERYONE has the right to their opinion. Who said you were addressing Risia, i am just saying she makes a hell of a lot more sense and is more logical then what you posted. Oh, then again, you may be one of those avoiding the issue of abuse.

 

[BBD]

Listen, i dont have time for other peoples ignorance. You seem to see what you want to see, i see what i see, and EVERYONE has the right to their opinion. Who said you were addressing Risia, i am just saying she makes a hell of a lot more sense and is more logical then what you posted. Oh, then again, you may be one of those avoiding the issue of abuse.

No, I'm telling you like so many others that the issue here IS abuse. Whether it's BDSM abuse or not doesn't really matter. It's ABUSE.

I'll say it again. It's ABUSE...no matter what they call it or what you call it. It's ABUSE.

Talk about seeing what you want to see. Look, I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion. Having the right to an opinion, however, isn't the same thing as having the right to having an opinion that goes unquestioned or unexamined. You can't really expect to come in here and ask for opinions then get bent out of shape when you don't receive the ones you wanted to hear.

Risia made very good points. I tend to agree with most of it. It should be noted, however, that she not only answered your original questions but added a few of her own. Nobody's shyed away from yours, but quite a few have answered you with the added notation that the situation you describe is not BDSM. Apparently that's not what you want to hear though, so you keep going on about how all are ignoring this. I'll have to respectfully disagree with Risia and say that I don't see that.

Actually, she didn't even say that. Her words were:
we don't like to talk about abusive relationships, because so many people automatically assume that what we do is abuse, in all circumstances, and we get tired of defending it. So, we draw clear lines between "us" (consenting kinks) and "them" (abusers and victims) and refuse to even acknowledge that there IS overlap, that some people are both in BDSM relationships and in abusive ones.

That I can agree with, but I take offense when a person who is nothing but an abuser labels himself as a Dom in an attempt to excuse it. I also take offense when an abuser labels himself as a man. Why? Because I'm both and I don't care to be associated in any way with people like that.

Anyway, before I digress any further...I don't see people ignoring the topic of abuse. I do see them dismissing your continued insistence that the abuser here is somehow a Dom or a Master. He's neither.

 

[broken_halo]

I'll say it again. It's ABUSE...no matter what they call it or what you call it. It's ABUSE.

You can't really expect to come in here and ask for opinions then get bent out of shape when you don't receive the ones you wanted to hear.

Risia made very good points. I tend to agree with most of it. It should be noted, however, that she not only answered your original questions but added a few of her own. Nobody's shyed away from yours, but quite a few have answered you with the added notation that the situation you describe is not BDSM. Apparently that's not what you want to hear though, so you keep going on about how all are ignoring this. I'll have to respectfully disagree with Risia and say that I don't see that.

Actually, she didn't even say that. Her words were:
we don't like to talk about abusive relationships, because so many people automatically assume that what we do is abuse, in all circumstances, and we get tired of defending it. So, we draw clear lines between "us" (consenting kinks) and "them" (abusers and victims) and refuse to even acknowledge that there IS overlap, that some people are both in BDSM relationships and in abusive ones.

That I can agree with, but I take offense when a person who is nothing but an abuser labels himself as a Dom in an attempt to excuse it. I also take offense when an abuser labels himself as a man. Why? Because I'm both and I don't care to be associated in any way with people like that.

Anyway, before I digress any further...I don't see people ignoring the topic of abuse. I do see them dismissing your continued insistence that the abuser here is somehow a Dom or a Master. He's neither.

Ok, here it is again. People have side stepped the issue of abuse in a D's relationship because the way others on the outside world see BDSM as abuse anyways. IT DOES HAPPEN in BDSM relationships and that should not be ingored. How can one ingore that thier friend is beggining to believe that what her Dom says is true, that she wont make it without him, that no one else will ever love her. That he is the only one that will ever provide for her, saying she never had it so easy, when in fact i do not call emotional and physical abuse easy. It happens in ANY kind of lifestyle, in ANY culture. Its just some people dont want to get involved in helping abuse victims out i guess because it is not their problem. I have stated time and time again that it happens in any lifestyle. Doms/Masters use BDSM as an excuse and say well this is how it is...leading his/her partner to believe that this is the way the lifestyle is. Master is all or nothing. Again, and again and again, i say over and over, it is a part of ANY lifestyle and Culture. However, the Doms/Masters use this as an excuse.

 

[broken_halo]

Ok, here it is again. People have side stepped the issue of abuse in a D's relationship because the way others on the outside world see BDSM as abuse anyways. IT DOES HAPPEN in BDSM relationships and that should not be ingored. How can one ingore that thier friend is beggining to believe that what her Dom says is true, that she wont make it without him, that no one else will ever love her. That he is the only one that will ever provide for her, saying she never had it so easy, when in fact i do not call emotional and physical abuse easy. It happens in ANY kind of lifestyle, in ANY culture. Its just some people dont want to get involved in helping abuse victims out i guess because it is not their problem. I have stated time and time again that it happens in any lifestyle. Doms/Masters use BDSM as an excuse and say well this is how it is...leading his/her partner to believe that this is the way the lifestyle is. Master is all or nothing. Again, and again and again, i say over and over, it is a part of ANY lifestyle and Culture. However, the Doms/Masters use this as an excuse.

as a added note, i do not get bent out of shape when people state their opinions, i get bent out of shape when people try to sidestep a very important issue. Why bother to answer the questions at all if your only going to sidestep everything?

 

[BBD]

as a added note, i do not get bent out of shape when people state their opinions, i get bent out of shape when people try to sidestep a very important issue. Why bother to answer the questions at all if your only going to sidestep everything?

If you answer the questions, how is that sidestepping?

 

[broken_halo]

If you answer the questions, how is that sidestepping?

The questions were NOT being answerd, only avoided. Now, i can see that your one of those that has to keep things going on and on and on. Lets drop it, you have stated your opinion and it has been noted. im not going to keep up a petty arguement with someone when i have more important things to do. i am sorry i brought this topic to this forum. It seems there are only a few of you that understand and the rest either dont care or dont want to get involved, or want to get childish and techinical about the whole thing and all i wanted was some simple information that may be able to help me help a friend.


so sorry i wasted everyones time who wants to keep living a fantasy where nothing bad happens when in reality it does.

 

[petrel]

long(ish) post

It seems like the issue here is that broken_halo want us all to admit openly that BDSM relationships can be abusive, I think most of us are uniting in saying that by 'our' definition they then cease to be BDSM relationships.
Yes of course it can happen that a sub or dom is abused either physically or emotionallyand I am sure none of us would be foolish enough to tell someone that it didn't.
However we are really not sure what else you want to know broken_halo

Do i know anyone who has been abused within a relationsip that was 'called' BDSM - yes
Do I accept that abuse can occur within a BDSM relationship - Yes
Has this topic ever been discussed on the board ebfore - Not to my knowledge and heres my take on why

simply to discuss the issue isn't useful or empowering, we all know its out there and I am sure that if we come across it in our lives we will try and do something about it - either help the victim or inform people of the true nature of a SSC BDSM relationship.

discussion of what exactly - we could all sit here and say how terrible this type of thing was, or we could give advice on how to get out of the relationship but to be honest I would only give that advice to someone who posted for themselves - not because i don't trust you but becasue this is so personal that I wouldn't feel comfortable discussing someone elses life with another person unless I knew them both very well.
As far as abusive relationships and how to survive them there are plenty of links online and off that are devoted to this area and to helping the victims.
If you feel you want additional information on what does make a BDSM relationship then read the excellent stickies at the top of this forum - especially Risia's Safe, Sane and consensual

I am sorry broken_halo feels that we are all ignoring him and living in a fantasy world - I don't think we are and I think we are trying to help in the best way we can. Remember that this is a sensitive topic and many people may not want to discuss it in detail or share personal thoughts because it can be too personal - I certainly don't want to share my own personal thoughts on this topic with anyone in public!

 

[cymbidia]

Re: Warning: Long and extremely personal post below

However, abuse happens in relationships of all kinds, perhaps even particularly BDSM because it may be more difficult to recognize and understand abuse for us. Because extreme physical sensations and various levels of submission are such a part of what we do *consensually,* the dividing line is hard to see.
<snip>
How, then, do we recognize when it stops being a choice, when we aren't being valued, when we're being exploited and used?
<snip>
If we can't talk about this here, of all places, I fear for the safety of every sub that crosses Lit's path. So, let's come clean about this, okay?
<snip>
Have I ever known someone in an abusive BDSM relationship? Again, and terribly, yes.
<snip>
Did the abused kink see it? Not at the time. Worse, she would have (and did) defend the abusive partner up one side and down the other, excusing his abuses as the ministrations of a particularly demanding and controlling Dominant or as a consequence of emotional strain caused by anything and everything but him

What R said.

Do you know the place where the ocean meets the sand? Have you walked there, that place that's not-ocean, not-dry sand? Out in either direction it's definitely wet ocean or dry sand but there, right there where you're walking, it's neither. Or both. And it changes, that place, with the time of day and the tides.

That's the place where consensual BDSM becomes abusive BDSM.

With apologies to all, i want you to know that in this matter i know what i'm talking about. I'm not, however, going to go into detail; i cannot. I am usually quite open about everything in my life but on this i cannot be.

Please let me say this though: even sophisticated, self-aware, experienced submissives can find themselves in an abusive BDSM relationship, one that may not have begun as abusive at all but slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, over time, became so. They may not recognize it as being abusive, may not be able to see it at all. They are, after all, deeply and wholeheartedly wedded to thier submission to thier Dominant. If the submissive is at all masochistic, the abuse becomes even more difficult to recognize, at least the physical part.

The ugly truth is that abusive BDSM exists.

It's a place any of us can fall into, we who play power exchange games with such skill and daring. It exists. To deny it, to pretend it does not happen, to close our eyes to it, is to negate the experiences and needs of some of our own. It is to be bound and gagged at a time when we should be calling out a safe word.

There is a line between consensual BDSM and abuse. It's clear. We all know where it is. Usually. Not always, though, and not even always for ourselves. Please trust me on this.

broken_halo is obviously extremely distraught about someone close to her who is being abused within the tenants of a BDSM relationship. She came to us in a caustic manner and we've bristled a bit because, after all, it gets goddam old defending ourselves and what we do and who we are from attacks by outsiders - and fucking well don't want to have to do it here.

However, this is a subject that deserves discussion because it's the ugly side of who we are. We have to dissect and discuss and recognize that reality as much as we do the other side, the good stuff we need and want, the stuff that completes us as people and sexual beings.

And broken_halo? It's heartbreaking but, as with any abusive relationship nilla or BDSM, the abused person has to want to get out before she will be able to see and hear and understand that she is, in fact, being abused. Sometimes, the very best - and only - thing you, as a person close to her, can do is be there to murmur over and over over This isn't right, it's not BDSM, it's not supposed to hurt, let me help you, please let me help you find a new life.

She'll hear you or she won't.

But yes, sometimes BDSM includes abuse. If you want to call it brainwashing, have at it. Personally, i think that abuse is abuse no matter what the semantics.

In all cases, abuse is happening if harm is being done to one partner, no matter if it's with her full consent or not.

 

[lilfrk]

Re: Re: Warning: Long and extremely personal post below

And broken_halo? It's heartbreaking but, as with any abusive relationship nilla or BDSM, the abused person has to want to get out before she will be able to see and hear and understand that she is, in fact, being abused. Sometimes, the very best - and only - thing you, as a person close to her, can do is be there to murmur over and over over This isn't right, it's not BDSM, it's not supposed to hurt, let me help you, please let me help you find a new life.

She'll hear you or she won't.

But yes, sometimes BDSM includes abuse. If you want to call it brainwashing, have at it. Personally, i think that abuse is abuse no matter what the semantics.

In all cases, abuse is happening if harm is being done to one partner, no matter if it's with her full consent or not.

Right there...It's been said again. You can't help her unless she wants to be helped. That's how it works. No matter how badly it hurts you to sit by and watch it, you have no choice.

I had to distance myself from J. It kills me to see her abused by her husband and her "Dom". I let her know regularly that I love her and that I miss her. I also tell her that when she needs me that I'll be there for her, when SHE is ready. I leave phone numbers on her desk that she can use when she is ready. Just hoping that maybe one day I'll catch her at the right time. In a weak moment and she'll call and get out.

I've been very blunt with J about why I'm not around so much anymore. I've told her that it kills me to see her like this when if she'd just let me I could help her be whole again. She says she knows and that when she's ready she'll come to me. I know she will. And that is what keeps me going a lot of the time.

I don't know what else to say. Just be there for her when she needs you. Make her understand that even if she doesn't know that it's abuse that you do.

 

[monster666]

Re: Re: Warning: Long and extremely personal post below

What R said.

Do you know the place where the ocean meets the sand? Have you walked there, that place that's not-ocean, not-dry sand? Out in either direction it's definitely wet ocean or dry sand but there, right there where you're walking, it's neither. Or both. And it changes, that place, with the time of day and the tides.

That's the place where consensual BDSM becomes abusive BDSM.

With apologies to all, i want you to know that in this matter i know what i'm talking about. I'm not, however, going to go into detail; i cannot. I am usually quite open about everything in my life but on this i cannot be.

Please let me say this though: even sophisticated, self-aware, experienced submissives can find themselves in an abusive BDSM relationship, one that may not have begun as abusive at all but slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, over time, became so. They may not recognize it as being abusive, may not be able to see it at all. They are, after all, deeply and wholeheartedly wedded to thier submission to thier Dominant. If the submissive is at all masochistic, the abuse becomes even more difficult to recognize, at least the physical part.

The ugly truth is that abusive BDSM exists.

It's a place any of us can fall into, we who play power exchange games with such skill and daring. It exists. To deny it, to pretend it does not happen, to close our eyes to it, is to negate the experiences and needs of some of our own. It is to be bound and gagged at a time when we should be calling out a safe word.

There is a line between consensual BDSM and abuse. It's clear. We all know where it is. Usually. Not always, though, and not even always for ourselves. Please trust me on this.

broken_halo is obviously extremely distraught about someone close to her who is being abused within the tenants of a BDSM relationship. She came to us in a caustic manner and we've bristled a bit because, after all, it gets goddam old defending ourselves and what we do and who we are from attacks by outsiders - and fucking well don't want to have to do it here.

However, this is a subject that deserves discussion because it's the ugly side of who we are. We have to dissect and discuss and recognize that reality as much as we do the other side, the good stuff we need and want, the stuff that completes us as people and sexual beings.

And broken_halo? It's heartbreaking but, as with any abusive relationship nilla or BDSM, the abused person has to want to get out before she will be able to see and hear and understand that she is, in fact, being abused. Sometimes, the very best - and only - thing you, as a person close to her, can do is be there to murmur over and over over This isn't right, it's not BDSM, it's not supposed to hurt, let me help you, please let me help you find a new life.

She'll hear you or she won't.

But yes, sometimes BDSM includes abuse. If you want to call it brainwashing, have at it. Personally, i think that abuse is abuse no matter what the semantics.

In all cases, abuse is happening if harm is being done to one partner, no matter if it's with her full consent or not.

cym, I've read lot's of what you've posted and never felt the need to disagree with you even a little - until now - and now only a little.

Saying that BDSM includes abuse is akin to saying that Catholicism includes child rape. It doesn't. That isn't to say that some Catholics aren't ALSO child rapists. Obviously, there are more than we'd like. But the child rape issues are not part of the doctrine or teaching of that Church. And abuse is no part of anything I have read about the BDSM culture. I am no defender of Catholicism, trust me. But labeling the whole church as a sex offending organization might be a little unfair.

Abuse comes in many packages. Boy Scout leaders have been scrutinized in the past. Babysitters. Uncles. Moms. Dads. No one seems to accuse the culture of Scouting as a culture fostering sex abuse of minors. They singled out the bad actors.

People here have bristled both ways; true. I am not trying to further fan that flame, but I think I'd like to make it clear that any kind of abuse should not be acceptable. And no part of it is part of the BDSM culture that's piqued my curiousity so not because of it's brutality, but because of it's sensitivity.

Abuse is conducted by abusers. It's that simple.

I love ya cym, and if you don't agree, I hope we can just agree to disagree, and not get all nuts about it.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Monster, I think you misunderstand cym's (and by extension, my) point. I base this on the faulty analogy of Catholicism.

She doesn't say that BDSM includes abuse, only that abuse happens in *SOME* BDSM relationships. So, it's not saying that Catholicism includes child rape, but that some Catholics are also child rapists. Seeing the difference yet?

Saying that abuse simply isn't BDSM doesn't go far enough. It's rather like letting someone call a hotline for marital problems, hearing that someone's being abused by their husband, and telling them "Marriage doesn't include abuse, so you aren't really a wife, and it isn't our problem."

Life just doesn't work like that.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Right now it's come down to splitting hairs.

Abuse is not a part of the trappings, rituals, sexual predilections, or mores of any relationship from priest to child or dom to sub. Abuse exists separately from these things.

To say that it stops being a BDSM relationship just because abuse has begun to happen is like saying that it has stopped being a marriage because abuse has begun to happen.

Abuse is not singular to BDSM. However, due to the very nature of BDSM and sexual predators, abusers are more attracted to the lifestyle and it's simpler to cross the lines into abuse as far as mental state goes.

Yes, there is abuse within BDSM relationships. Is it inherent in BDSM, no. Can it exist within the relationship? Yes. Does the relationship stop being BDSM? Do they stop being dom and sub anymore than a nilla marriage stops being man and wife? No, they don't.

Does that mean that the abuse is a part of the BDSM portion of the relationship? No it doesn't.

 

[SpectreT]

Not much I can add to what's been said; it sucks, it hurts, I was dumb enough to think that you were looking into a definition, not looking for help in finding a way to extract someone from a bad situation.

Not the first time I've been wrong, nor will it be the last. I'm still breathing.

And Risia, good call, I am (damn, what's a good word for humbled, embarrased and corrected all in one?) by your "Marital Problems Hotline" analogy.

The real downside is that the only thing you can do is let this person know that you're there and you want to help them, unconditionally.

I'm put in mind of alcoholism, though, something I've had personal experience with. You can't force someone to get help, or force your help and advice on them. They've gotta want it.

 

[monster666]

Risia, I don't think my analogy of catholicism was faulty in the least. And I didn't misunderstand you or Cym, I just took exception with one point.

And now I take exeption with one more point - and that is this notion that because I don't agree with something said, that I must not understand. I do. I just don't 100% agree. I hope that's okay.

I agree with Killermuffin 100% when she says " Abuse is not a part of the trappings, rituals, sexual predilections, or mores of any relationship from priest to child or dom to sub. Abuse exists separately from these things."

This is exactly the point I was trying to make.

When someone calls an abuse hotline, I am sure that no one thinks that marriage is the reason for the abuse, or that it's part of the marriage culture. If it exists with the marriage it's because of a jerk, not the marriage. After all, there are a lot of marriages that are not abusive.

Cym said, "The ugly truth is that abusive BDSM exists."

I think here too, abuse exists separately from BDSM. It may co-exist, but it's not part of BDSM. That said, I do understand that many abusers like to think of themselves as Dominant. That's a crock. They are just abusers.

This may well be splitting fine hairs, but I think it's an important distinction to make. It has everything to do with the difference between respecting and valuing one another and fostering a culture that is defensable because it really is safe sane and consentual and, well - not. And if that hair isn't split here, then where?

If people in this BDSM culture don't stand up and say that abuse is wrong - and BDSM isn't about abuse and that there is not room for it in ANY relationship, then all credibility is lost. I am not suggesting these things aren't being done, I am saying they are. I think they are done well enough that BDSM doesn't have to take the abuse rap.

Just maybe there is more at stake than superficial appearances - perhaps there are legal ramifications. At crunch time, I'd not want to confuse the work of a bad-acting asshole who claims to be a Dom with an effect of a culture such as BDSM which I think speaks so vehemently against such actions.

Getting back to the original question (which I notice has now been edited away) regarding cultish brainwashing in a BDSM relationship. I know of people in relationships where abuse exists. I have spoken against it. But I do take exception when these situations are characterized as abusive BDSM relationships. It's simply abuse.

Catholicism is not abusive.
Marriages are not abusive.
The Boy Scouts are not abusive.
BDSM is not abusive.

Abusers ARE abusive.

 

[petrel]

So now we are all discussing this, throwing it around trying to come up with definitions, advice etc etc where did broken_halo go?
come back we really are trying to help you know

 

[broken_halo]

i am back.

but i am going to stay in the background a while. thats all.