Brutal insensitivity

[brioche]

BAM!


This is exactly my point.

You can't cry over every starving child in the world, you'll never get anything done. Even when I was a teacher, it was a challenge not to care about any student too much, because I had to care about the class as a whole.

[/mini-hijack]
You were a teacher? How old were the students?

Personally I don't agree. Caring for each student as an individual how to keep the class as a whole healthy and caring for each other. But we're talking about very young kids here.
[return to topic]

brutal insensitivity. Not something I want. On the other hand, others salivate at the idea. I think this is one of the things someone who desires a slave relationship with 24/7 TPE might want. I can see it working in that sort of relationship especially.
I think this depends on the makeup of the sub as well as the Dom.

 

[Mr. Mann]

Marquis,

Granted, I'm somewhat new here, but my impression of you so far will not allow me to believe that you truly consider women as simple creatures and I suspect you were merely being obtuse for the purposes of making a point.

Just as some teachers may withfraw from students as thier career progresses, I think you may be withdrawing your 'self' as a way of reducing risk and feelings of rejection.

If you risk the entire self, then you also risk having the entire self be rejected. But this is only on the surface. The deeper drive is that in giving the entire self to a person, you also risk not meeting their needs even when giving your all. This risks the feel of failure in meeting their needs... the needs of someone you cared enough about to devote yourself so completely to them in the first place.

Is this not similar to why many teachers begin to withdraw from Little Johnny? Certainly the joy of having a great positive impact on a child's life can be incomparable. However, so can the frustration, self-blame, and heartbreak in extending your all, your everything, to a child and seeing in the end that it was not enough. --- Even your everything was not enough to counter the impact of genetics, family of origin, or home environment. How can we feel special about ourselves when our every creative, physical, and emotional effort is not enough? Is it not natural to see the hurt in anothers eyes to see that someone's total devotion was not enough to help them? Does this not possibly make them feel even more helpless and hopeless? Is it not natural for us to hold back part of ourselves to both protect our own hearts and self image as well as to protect others for whom we may care?

Take any random five people off the street and walk them into a room of terminally ill children. See how many find it difficult to make eye contact. They are witholding themselves out of a feeling of powerlessness and loss of control.

Tell them all to do everything in their power to make those children better and see how many say things like "What's the point?" - because giving great effort and then failing is hard to take. It is much easier on our psyche to sometimes simply not try at all.

The analogy of women to wild horses is a good one, and one that I actually consider often.

They buck and run not wanting to be tamed. They want to run free and wild. However, they also want and NEED companionship. They chomp at the bridle and turn their necks sometimes not wanting you to put it on... but once it is on, they find it comforting. They sidestep a bit resisting the saddle, but once it is on... they settle in. Once you mount them... they shift at the weight... but they also look forward to you taking them out and guiding them on a ride.

They have a strong spirit.. they resist it, but also find comfort in being tamed.

The goal is to tame their spirit, not break it. Allow the best of their spirit out, but control the worst of it.

Walking the line between taming and breaking a spirit requires sensitivity and insight... not ignorance and insensitivity.

Woman are not simple. They are more complex than men in many ways. It is part of what makes them so amazingly special. It is what makes their submission such an incredible gift. It is what makes them resist mindlessly submitting, but long to be lovingly dominated.

Bottom line... brutal insensitivity is not the right path, should one have the capacity to be aware and capable of choosing their path to begin with.

My two cents. (please forgive typos and the length... typing at the speed of thought, and all)

 

[SolidState]

i hope you don't take this the wrong way since it's not meant poorly or to intimate that you are effete, but you think like a woman.

Unfortunately completely lacking in empathy.

 

[BiBunny]

Marquis,

Granted, I'm somewhat new here, but my impression of you so far will not allow me to believe that you truly consider women as simple creatures and I suspect you were merely being obtuse for the purposes of making a point.

Just as some teachers may withfraw from students as thier career progresses, I think you may be withdrawing your 'self' as a way of reducing risk and feelings of rejection.

If you risk the entire self, then you also risk having the entire self be rejected. But this is only on the surface. The deeper drive is that in giving the entire self to a person, you also risk not meeting their needs even when giving your all. This risks the feel of failure in meeting their needs... the needs of someone you cared enough about to devote yourself so completely to them in the first place.

Is this not similar to why many teachers begin to withdraw from Little Johnny? Certainly the joy of having a great positive impact on a child's life can be incomparable. However, so can the frustration, self-blame, and heartbreak in extending your all, your everything, to a child and seeing in the end that it was not enough. --- Even your everything was not enough to counter the impact of genetics, family of origin, or home environment. How can we feel special about ourselves when our every creative, physical, and emotional effort is not enough? Is it not natural to see the hurt in anothers eyes to see that someone's total devotion was not enough to help them? Does this not possibly make them feel even more helpless and hopeless? Is it not natural for us to hold back part of ourselves to both protect our own hearts and self image as well as to protect others for whom we may care?

Take any random five people off the street and walk them into a room of terminally ill children. See how many find it difficult to make eye contact. They are witholding themselves out of a feeling of powerlessness and loss of control.

Tell them all to do everything in their power to make those children better and see how many say things like "What's the point?" - because giving great effort and then failing is hard to take. It is much easier on our psyche to sometimes simply not try at all.

The analogy of women to wild horses is a good one, and one that I actually consider often.

They buck and run not wanting to be tamed. They want to run free and wild. However, they also want and NEED companionship. They chomp at the bridle and turn their necks sometimes not wanting you to put it on... but once it is on, they find it comforting. They sidestep a bit resisting the saddle, but once it is on... they settle in. Once you mount them... they shift at the weight... but they also look forward to you taking them out and guiding them on a ride.

They have a strong spirit.. they resist it, but also find comfort in being tamed.

The goal is to tame their spirit, not break it. Allow the best of their spirit out, but control the worst of it.

Walking the line between taming and breaking a spirit requires sensitivity and insight... not ignorance and insensitivity.

Woman are not simple. They are more complex than men in many ways. It is part of what makes them so amazingly special. It is what makes their submission such an incredible gift. It is what makes them resist mindlessly submitting, but long to be lovingly dominated.

Bottom line... brutal insensitivity is not the right path, should one have the capacity to be aware and capable of choosing their path to begin with.

My two cents. (please forgive typos and the length... typing at the speed of thought, and all)

As both horse person and woman, I think there's a lot of truth in this post. Thanks for making me think.

 

[MechaBlade]

Is, I think, a good quality in a Master.

Discuss.

I disagree.

It's like people who praise Bush, saying he's decisive and stubborn. Good, ideally, but more often than not, a character flaw.

 

[Marquis]

Jesus Christ, even Mechablade against me.

I'll be back to defend my position.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

has anyone seen FiFi

 

[Marquis]

[/mini-hijack]
You were a teacher? How old were the students?

Personally I don't agree. Caring for each student as an individual how to keep the class as a whole healthy and caring for each other. But we're talking about very young kids here.
[return to topic]

brutal insensitivity. Not something I want. On the other hand, others salivate at the idea. I think this is one of the things someone who desires a slave relationship with 24/7 TPE might want. I can see it working in that sort of relationship especially.
I think this depends on the makeup of the sub as well as the Dom.

I taught high school. By the way your response doesn't even begin to engage my argument, but then again, you wouldn't agree with me if I said the Earth was round.

 

[Marquis]

Marquis,

Granted, I'm somewhat new here, but my impression of you so far will not allow me to believe that you truly consider women as simple creatures and I suspect you were merely being obtuse for the purposes of making a point.

Here is one thing I've always found. Get four Doms, four Blacks, four cripples, four millionaires or four Hindu's together and they can talk about how subs deserve respect, they're proud to be Black, being crippled doesn't limit their lives, money is great and eating beef is a sin until they're blue in the face.

Which is what we do, mainly here. We repeat the canned statements of generations of BDSM folk in our own paraphrased words like it's something new and exciting. Half the topics in this board look like this:

"I love BDSM because of the trust"

"Actually, the trust is why I love BDSM, tee hee"

"In my erudite and well seasoned opinion I do find the trust to be the quintessential element of BDSM"

"The other day my Dom did this, does anyone think trust is important in BDSM?"

Feel free to substitute communication with trust, but be sure to repeat ad nauseum.

But what happens when that one Hindu says its ridiculous that we don't eat beef, or one millionaire decides love is more important than money, or maybe one cripple wants to complain a bit about not walking and one Black guy admits to being ashamed of Black culture.

Three other people turn on them, yes, but often enough, the discussion moves forward.

Whether or not I'm being obtuse is hardly the point, I want to see controversy! I'm sick and tired of the ultra cuddly face being put onto male Domination. Domme's get to be edgy badasses and we've been reduced to Ronald McDonald's with floggers. Santa Claus in black leather. This isn't the truth. I want to expose what's really going on out there, I want people to see and deal with the truth because I am tired of hearing about unrealistic expectations people have for D/s.

Take any random five people off the street and walk them into a room of terminally ill children. See how many find it difficult to make eye contact. They are witholding themselves out of a feeling of powerlessness and loss of control.

This is a very cogent analogy, and one which I can relate to. I look away often. But your assumption over why your five people are withholding themselves may not be correct. Isn't it possible they just don't care to help, and don't want to be drawn into an emotional state they don't plan on reconciling with action?

Walking the line between taming and breaking a spirit requires sensitivity and insight... not ignorance and insensitivity.

I still think there is something to be said for selective caring.

Returning to my story for example. Beating my quasi-sub as I did was an insensitive thing indeed. I'm sure you're much older than I, so I don't mean to be superior, but I wonder if you have ever beat a woman. Not a child that is your explicit responsibility or your sex partner during some kinky play, but have you ever seized a woman you love and respect and used physical intimidation as a manipulation tool?

It takes a lot of sand.

You see, it has been brought to my attention via the PM that I look like a bit of an abuser here, and I'm ok with that. I know that I would never be abusive, and more importantly my lovely sub would never tolerate an abusive situation. But that doesnt mean that we don't desire a little brutality in our lives. Call us sick if you will, but every once in a while we like it when I do something, kind of.... ferocious.

I'm a pretty ballsy motherfucker. Most guys my age are losing sleep over how to ask their girlfriend for anal. But even for me, to do some of the things I enjoy doing, there comes a point where I have to put the warm fuzzies away and get mean.

There are things I still can't do because I'm too sensitive. I desperately want to draw blood with my teeth, but I can't even think about it without feeling the pain.

Woman are not simple. They are more complex than men in many ways. It is part of what makes them so amazingly special. It is what makes their submission such an incredible gift. It is what makes them resist mindlessly submitting, but long to be lovingly dominated.

Paragraphs like this will make you very popular around here.

Bottom line... brutal insensitivity is not the right path, should one have the capacity to be aware and capable of choosing their path to begin with.

I disagree. I think brutal insensitivity is not a path, but a tool which a Dom must keep in his toolbelt. There is a time for sensitivity. True, loving, doting sensitivity; but there is also a time to be cold and uncompromising. Being able to appreciate both ends of this spectrum is where true Mastery lies.

 

[Caitlynne]

I disagree. I think brutal insensitivity is not a path, but a tool which a Dom must keep in his toolbelt. There is a time for sensitivity. True, loving, doting sensitivity; but there is also a time to be cold and uncompromising. Being able to appreciate both ends of this spectrum is where true Mastery lies.

OK.. This is a great statement.

I agree, brutal insensitivity is a tool a Dom must keep in his tool belt. Otherwise, the Domination becomes watered down to role playing.

 

[alice_underneath]

I want to open this topic back up with a recent example.

C is in the kitchen now, cleaning up after a meal I made for us. Part of the agreement in our breakup was that she would no longer do extraneous cleaning, only that cleaning which stems from a common nucleus of related fact. OK, I just wanted to throw in some legal shit, the agreement was that she clean only things relating to her activities here.

In any case, she came in to make a big announcement that she was not making the bed, since she did not sleep in it last night.

Wait a minute...

that lying bitch, she DID sleep in it last night!!! I'll be right back..


as I was saying.

I could've said "fair enough" and let it go. Seems that would be the fair thing to do. She's obviously not feeling like she's not getting her fair part of the bargain in this relationship, and it isn't right of me to leave her shorted.

So what did I do? Make the bed myself?

Nay, I beat her ass with a heavy brown leather belt until she cowered in a corner and stuck her palms out defensively, which I then struck with the strap like Goldie the Mack.

Now she made my bed, and I think, no I know, that she is a little more at peace. Better to live in an unfair world, consistently, then to have absolute freedom with nothing you can count on.

Am I even making any sense?

What I'm trying to say is that the bed needs to be made. I know she wants it made, it bothers her not to have it made, and I ain't doing it. At least she didn't do it willfully. At least she HAD to do it.

Forget all the lollypop soda shop domination being peddled all over the internet like spam. This is how it gets done baby! Yeah!

Suck my dick.

Marquis,

If it's ok with you, my post will not be talking about you and C, but rather about a hypothetical couple - Joe and Jane. They are in an openly acknowledged, committed, consensual D/s relationship.

If I understand your post correctly, you are talking about what happens when confusion has developed over a specific non-sexual, non-scene issue, and an argument between Joe and Jane has ensued.

My observation of couples is that usually in this type of situation, the man is partly right and the woman is partly right. Both people understand this, but each feels they are slightly more right than the other person. That's just the way life works.

Things come to a stalemate. What can be done? One way or the other, that damn bed just has to get made!

Marquis, your solution with the belt reminds me of an excerpt from one of the Taken In Hand articles.

"One of the most important benefits of the kind of relationship we talk about on Taken In Hand is that it embodies powerful error correction. No, I do not refer to the errors of the allegedly faulty woman, I am talking about the tiny errors in signalling and interpretation – the little misunderstandings that happen between people all the time – that can so often end up in what feels like a descent into hell.

Instead of allowing little problems to metastasise into misery, accusations, fighting, or icy silence, the dominant man can use serious discipline or some other way of expressing his authority to invoke the relationship. Instead of withdrawing and breaking their connection, he can, through taking or re-establishing control, highlight and re-affirm his commitment to their relationship. Taking a woman in hand is a way of invoking the relationship that can be done without losing face, without any damage to his pride or ego, and without any emasculating grovelling to the woman or loss of power on his part. Through this action, he signals to the woman that he is ready to put the troublesome issue behind them rather than dwelling on it, fighting about it, sulking or stonewalling. It minimises if not eliminates the build-up of niggling resentment that can do so much damage to relationships."

http://www.takeninhand.com/node/104

In other words, when a stalemate occurs it is up to Joe to say - "Enough! Here's what we're going to do to resolve this argument. Now let's move on."

What does any of this have to do with Joe being brutally insensitive? As so often happens, semantics interpretations will influence the way in which people respond to this topic. But if I used the phrase 'firm and unrelenting' - would that fall within the general realm of what you are talking about here, Marquis?

These traits will enable Joe to suppress the natural urge to be moved by Jane's quivering lower lip or swayed by her eyes, pleading mournfully for him to understand her point of view. He knows she is partly right, but the fact is that a stalemate between two people who are partly right is not getting anybody anywhere right now.

If Joe displays sensitivity to Jane's point of view at this moment, then the stalemate will only continue, or perhaps even escalate to an all-out war.

I'm not sure if this is what you are really trying to say here, Marquis, but that's my best guess as to what it might be. Perhaps your dominance is exerted in a more 'ferocious' way than Joe's, but the general idea is the same.

Alice

 

[gingermango]

I want people to see and deal with the truth because I am tired of hearing about unrealistic expectations people have for D/s.

And I think brutal insensitivity is hardly unusual for the world at large. However, in the context of a "real" BDSM relationship, brutal insensitivity is far from the norm and the cold, hard image you seem so desperately insistent on presenting in this thread is exactly the kind of unrealistic expectations people have for D/s. Too much porn, not enough reality.

Reality, in a true 24/7 lifestyle, power-exchange relationship is this: work, bills, housecleaning, laundry, pets/kids, vehicle maintenance, et cetera, repeat ad nauseum ad infinitum, with periodic interludes of amazing, mind-blowing sexual and psychological scenes and experiences. But after each one of those, someone has to wash the sheets, clean the stains from the carpets, and go back to work the next day to keep up the health insurance premiums. THAT'S real life.

Expecting a sub, ANY sub, to act like a happy puppy to work his/her ass off doing all that work alone, plus be completely submissive in bed and in all sexual and social situations, and to be content to be treated that way, is absurd.

You might be able to get away with this kind of treatment in an online relationship (where are the realities of life are neatly hidden away by keyboard and monitor) and you might be able to get away with it to some extent in a club/social setting. But you'd never get away with it for long in a true real-life relationship.

 

[Marquis]

What does any of this have to do with Joe being brutally insensitive? As so often happens, semantics interpretations will influence the way in which people respond to this topic. But if I used the phrase 'firm and unrelenting' - would that fall within the general realm of what you are talking about here, Marquis?

Yes, but it's my topic and I chose the words "brutal insensitivity".

I chose those words because I think anyone who has been in the position, on either end, would agree that "brutally insensitive" is a far more visceral description of how it feels to be in that position than "firm and unrelenting."

 

[Marquis]

And I think brutal insensitivity is hardly unusual for the world at large. However, in the context of a "real" BDSM relationship, brutal insensitivity is far from the norm and the cold, hard image you seem so desperately insistent on presenting in this thread is exactly the kind of unrealistic expectations people have for D/s. Too much porn, not enough reality.

Reality, in a true 24/7 lifestyle, power-exchange relationship is this: work, bills, housecleaning, laundry, pets/kids, vehicle maintenance, et cetera, repeat ad nauseum ad infinitum, with periodic interludes of amazing, mind-blowing sexual and psychological scenes and experiences. But after each one of those, someone has to wash the sheets, clean the stains from the carpets, and go back to work the next day to keep up the health insurance premiums. THAT'S real life.

Expecting a sub, ANY sub, to act like a happy puppy to work his/her ass off doing all that work alone, plus be completely submissive in bed and in all sexual and social situations, and to be content to be treated that way, is absurd.

You might be able to get away with this kind of treatment in an online relationship (where are the realities of life are neatly hidden away by keyboard and monitor) and you might be able to get away with it to some extent in a club/social setting. But you'd never get away with it for long in a true real-life relationship.

I'm not sure what you're implying, but I suspect some of your premises are a little fucked.

 

[gingermango]

I'm not sure what you're implying, but I suspect some of your premises are a little fucked.

As are some of yours. Check back with me in about 15 years.

 

[Marquis]

As are some of yours. Check back with me in about 15 years.

I could've called the old "paucity of years" thing a mile away.

Methinks if you have to fall back on that to win the argument, you already lost. But what do I know, I'm a child.

 

[alice_underneath]

Yes, but it's my topic and I chose the words "brutal insensitivity".

I chose those words because I think anyone who has been in the position, on either end, would agree that "brutally insensitive" is a far more visceral description of how it feels to be in that position than "firm and unrelenting."

Since you are talking about the type of dominance that is expressed in a ferocious and physical way, I agree with your comments here.

Given this response, I can now make the real point that I wanted to express. If 'firm and unrelenting' is not abuse, then 'brutally insensitive' (in this context) is not abuse either. It is just a more intense version of the same dynamic.

 

[gingermango]

I could've called the old "paucity of years" thing a mile away.

All hail the all-knowing, all seeing super-Dom. Yeah, right.

Methinks if you have to fall back on that to win the argument, you already lost. But what do I know, I'm a child.

Methinks you take yourself a tad too seriously. There's no argument at all.

You started this thread by posting a very troll-ish absurdity to cover the fact that you fucked up a personal relationship. Well, most of have done that a time or two. We just may not announce the fact quite so dramatically.

The majority of your comments in the thread since then have been to convince everyone that you're such a great Dom and that you want to show people "real" D/s based on your notions of "brutal insensitivity."

Again, and not to put too fine a point on it: yeah, right. Good luck, fella. You're going to need it.

 

[Marquis]

Since you are talking about the type of dominance that is expressed in a ferocious and physical way, I agree with your comments here.

Given this response, I can now make the real point that I wanted to express. If 'firm and unrelenting' is not abuse, then 'brutally insensitive' (in this context) is not abuse either. It is just a more intense version of the same dynamic.

Some time ago I started a thread where I presented differenct scenarios and asked people to judge them as BDSM or abuse. Many of the situations which I considered BDSM were considered abuse by others.

I was discussing this with RJ the other night, I really don't believe the line between BDSM and abuse is as thick as we make it, because the line of consent get a little grey when a lot of trust has been exchanged.

I've been with my sub for over a year and a half now, there are things I feel entitled to. There are things she feels entitled to. I am a stingy, cheap bastard. Big time. But she knows that if she was broke and needed some money I would be there for her. She knows I will go pick her up in the middle of the night if she went out and feels too drunk to drive home. She knows I would never let her go hungry or unloved or unfucked, whether I'm happy with her at the moment or not.

Why is it so different from the other side? If she can be so confident in what I WILL do for her, she can also be confident in what I will not tolerate.

To make a long story short, I think abuse is a highly nebulous concept. I think there are abusive situations where safewords are given and never used, and I even hold the controversial opinion that its possible to ignore a safeword and not be abusive.

 

[graceanne]

Yes, but it's my topic and I chose the words "brutal insensitivity".

I chose those words because I think anyone who has been in the position, on either end, would agree that "brutally insensitive" is a far more visceral description of how it feels to be in that position than "firm and unrelenting."

Besides 'firm and unrelenting' wouldn't have caught people's attention like 'brutal insensitivity'.

 

[Marquis]

All hail the all-knowing, all seeing super-Dom. Yeah, right.

I didn't exactly need a crystal ball. You sound tense, do I detect a hint of feeling threatened?

Methinks you take yourself a tad too seriously. There's no argument at all.

You started this thread by posting a very troll-ish absurdity to cover the fact that you fucked up a personal relationship. Well, most of have done that a time or two. We just may not announce the fact quite so dramatically.

The majority of your comments in the thread since then have been to convince everyone that you're such a great Dom and that you want to show people "real" D/s based on your notions of "brutal insensitivity."

Again, and not to put too fine a point on it: yeah, right. Good luck, fella. You're going to need it.

So, I started a thread to cover up something that was unknown?

Uhhhh.......

In any case, me and my relationship are doing fine, thanks for asking. We do renegotiate the terms of our relationship often, but its never cause for fights or tears, we're both very reasonable people outside of our kinks.

You know, I could swear I feel a bit of tension in the air. Are you sure it isn't my face you see when you close your eyes and bend over in your little lingerie pussy boy?

 

[Marquis]

Besides 'firm and unrelenting' wouldn't have caught people's attention like 'brutal insensitivity'.

HA HA HA HA!!!

 

[Marquis]

Ohhhhhhhhh Gingermango!!

I remember you, this is all starting to make sense now. You're the "tough sub" who isn't afraid of the big bad doms. Carry on.

 

[gingermango]

I didn't exactly need a crystal ball. You sound tense, do I detect a hint of feeling threatened?



So, I started a thread to cover up something that was unknown?

Uhhhh.......

No, you started a thread without fully disclosing your reasons for doing so, and in a manner intended to incite controversy, in order to feed your need for attention without disclosing the manner in which you fucked up or exactly why you want to come clean about it.

Sounds rather passive-aggressive to me, Mr. Super Dom.

In any case, me and my relationship are doing fine, thanks for asking.

I wasn't, but I'm glad to hear it.

We do renegotiate the terms of our relationship often, but its never cause for fights or tears, we're both very reasonable people outside of our kinks.

Congratulations.

You know, I could swear I feel a bit of tension in the air.

Get a copy of a good psychological text and look up "projection."

Are you sure it isn't my face you see when you close your eyes and bend over in your little lingerie pussy boy?

Bwahahaha!

I was right - you do take yourself too seriously.

 

[Marquis]

Ginger honey, I am going to do something I almost never do, and that is fall on my sword. You're obviously a bright slut and I bet you could continue arguing with me forever, something I don't care to do.

I still hold that you have something personal against me, but hey could be I'm projecting like you say. In either case, I find your fascination with me flattering.