capital punishment?

[Lynxie]

In theory, a person that commits a crime is sent to jail to be "reformed." It sounds like a good plan, but I wonder how many criminals actually turn out better for serving their time. With all the luxuries they're allowed, in combination with the rampant drug use and violence of most facilities, I seriously doubt that modern prisons actually make anyone safe to return into society. The individuals who serve their time and then make a genuine effort to abide by the law to avoid being sent back to prison are most likely the ones that posed the least threat to society in the first place. I'd be willing to bet that the most dangerous criminals aren't actually deterred by the idea of spending time in prison.

I agree with Cate that there need to be changes made to our justice system. Instead of allowing convicts to sit in climate-controlled cells watching cable television and selling their memoirs, why not put them to work? We currently use prisoners from minimum-security prisons for things like trash pick-up along highways, but other undesirable tasks could be assigned as well, to prisoners of all caliburs. Convicts that are too dangerous to be put to work shouldn't be allowed any luxuries. On the contrary, prison should be a horrible place that would actually convince people that it's worth not commiting a crime in order to not be sent there. By taking away creature comforts, like air conditioning or well-balanced meals, we'd greatly reduce the cost of keeping prisoners. Sure, it's inhumane... but I'm only suggesting such extreme measures for the worst of criminals, those that could not be put to work to give back to society in some way. A system like this is much more likely to prevent crime than the "threat" of our current prison system (oh no, not cable tv!). I'd even say that it would be more punitive than the death penalty. For many people, the thought of having your life ended quickly and painlessly is not quite enough to prevent them from commiting crimes.

Unfortunately this idea, much like the death penalty, only works if the legal system is accurate and honest. While I support the death penalty in concept, I believe our judicial system is far too flawed for it to be worthwhile. Innocents are put to death, while we let child rapists and serial killers roam free. There must be a better way.

 

[Epona's Chylde]

Lynxie,

If I remember jailer's school correctly, it specifically says in either the Texas State Jail Standards or the Penal Code that the purpose of a jail is NOT reform but the protection of society from criminals and the punishment of criminals.

Other states may have other ideals.

 

[NaughtyLil1]

I support it in theory, but I'm conflicted because there are too many mistakes being made within the current structure.

 

[Lynxie]

Lynxie,

If I remember jailer's school correctly, it specifically says in either the Texas State Jail Standards or the Penal Code that the purpose of a jail is NOT reform but the protection of society from criminals and the punishment of criminals.

Other states may have other ideals.

Then why do we let so many of them back out on into society? The whole system is just mind-boggling to me.

 

[silverwhisper]

bobsgirl: that wasn't phrased very well when i wrote it. that should have been something more along the lines of "there are some people that under no circumstances do i want free again." therefore, i support the existence of capital punishment. i believe that capital punishment's purpose is solely punishment, rather than deterrent--after all, who commits a crime thinking they're gonna get caught?

that said, i'm conflicted on the matter somewhat b/c the way capital punishment is handled is incredibly stupid: there are wrongful convictions and any system we devise is bound to be imperfect.

i used to oppose it, but i believe that in those areas where capital punishment is permitted, judges should have the discretion to assign that sentence. i think the way we go about it is all fucked up, but conceptually, i think that it's a useful to have that option.

ed

 

[bholderman]

Its hard for me to support the death penalty whole-heartedly ("Any Man's Death Diminishes Me..."), but I do think it a necessary evil. I wasn't one of the hoard that cheered when Westerfiled was convicted in the Van Damme trial here in San Diego. That was a horrid sight to behold. There are some individuals who need to be removed from the planet, regardless of their mental sanity (or not).

I am however, glad of the decision based on DNA developments that all death penalty cases are being reviewed (but I think this a state by state process), certainly if its going to be done that person needs to be 100% guilty.

In regards to some comments above (there are too many to quote), killing a person doesn't imply an instant death penalty. Cases of rage, fighting back, defending one's self and many other instances are all given sub-levels of homicide and manslaughter. In the old west there was a term called "justified killing (or shooting)," and the law even today understands that as well as most juries.

The appeal process is a mess, however.

Cheers,
Brad

 

[Epona's Chylde]

Then why do we let so many of them back out on into society? The whole system is just mind-boggling to me.

I don't understand it myself. I see how screwed up it is every day. People who should be kept locked up end up out on the streets and people who are don't deserve to be locked up end up behind bars for years...it's just an inherently flawed system.

 

[SlyKitten]

I am very emotional these days so forgive me for being more emotional than rational, but even for a killer, death isn't enough of a punishment. And with the legal system being what is it (not so 'just', where pretty much everybody is ready to parjure themselves for the right price...), errors are too likely to be made. I also believe we should not decide whether someone lives or dies (I believe this in the case of life support systems as well)

Bring back stocks and public humiliation I say. And jails where they do serve week old bread and tap water. They're criminals for crying out loud.

HornyProf chose better words than me to express my own thoughts (I do have to translate them and sometimes it is not as easy as it looks).

 

[Ricwilly]

I agree that the system needs some work. Prisons are entirely too easy. The biggest hardship of prison is having to deal with the inmates.
Take away the tvs and radios, take away the weights and recreation equipment, take away the commisary, ect. Put the dangerous inmates in little cells and leave them there, make them actually earn release on a one on one basis, not some generic formula.
Let a life sentence mean they actually stay in prison untill they die. If they try to escape by all means shoot them.
Most prisons I've heard of and, I actually did a couple years in one, do put the inmates to work, but it's too easy to get around that, make work really mean work. I'm undecided on schooling as most prisons have some form of it but it gets abused, let's say it should be available but should have to be earned.
I against the death penalty because as a civilized society we shouldn't be killing people.

 

[popcorn2721]

please remove this post

 

[popcorn2721]

Im against the idea of capital punishment as a whole. Life is not ours to give and therefore is not ours to take. Understanding the theory of self defence and escalation doesnt mean one will never have to remove the life essence from a body. It just means to look for another way before it gets to the point that a fatal altercation is inevitable. As far as reform goes...thats another subject (as it should be), I think that for one to be reformed that their would have to be a deep change in that person...Does that happen today? Rarely is anyone reformed just from the time they spent inside. To help with reforming those that commit crimes against children, rape and such, castration should be standard allong with hormonal therapy to make these persons zombies inside the penal system. Their lives should be forever marked by more than just a web page and having to introduce themselves to the neighbors, which are mandatory steps in alot of states now. I know this isnt popular as an alternative but Im not sure of what else should be done to stem the tide.

 

[girl_on_fire]

My thoughts about capital punishment go back and forth.

I actually work in corrections as a GED teacher and have seen with my own eyes how easy prisoners have it. It's a lot like a permenant summer camp. There are many men in the prison system that come back to prison after being released because they have no idea how to function in society. They're comfortable in prison because they don't have to make many decisions-- everything is decided for them-- they can't even decide what time of the day to shower or eat! There has to be a better way, but I'm unsure of what that is.

Assuming that CP remains legal, I definitely think that the victim's family should have some say so in whether or not the perpetrator is put to death or not. I've talked to many families of victims and it seems that a lot of them would rather the criminal spend their life in jail, but of course, that's going to differ with every family. It's a tough decision to make. On one hand, I agree because I think everyone should have to pay for what they've done, but on the other, it's barbaric.

 

[emap]

Death penalty aside, I think that rapists shouldn't be raped or stuck in prison for 10 years, I think that instead they should be chained down with their penis stretched over a rock with their victim and her family and friends their with a rock. They then beat his penis with the rock each getting a turn until they are satisfied with his punishment, the victim getting first whack and unlimited whacks, she can go for as long as she wants, everyone else gets one.

Cruel and unusual, you bet, inhumane Ooo yes please. Is it better than what she got? Heck no and he deserves it.

The problem with the US and it's justice system, it's humane. The above is a rather good deterrant to rape used by many tribes of native americans, Cherokee and Apache primarily, they didn't have many rapists for a very obvious reason. Not to many of the rapists could even have sex again.

My guy put it best, I think he was quoting from someone but he never said who. Bring civilization to the barbarians and you bring with it rapists and murderers and theives and your general undesirable sorts, leave the barbarians to be barbarians and you have civilization of the highest order.

 

[Munachi]

against it. strongly.

1. Capital punishment to me is revenge. I am against revenge.
2. Killing someone is violence. If the state uses violence, it sends a message to the people that it is alright to use violence, and that you can resolve problems with violence.
3. Someone will have to make the final decision. I wouldn't want to be the one to decide that someone is going to be put to death, and the thought that there are people who decide this, and decide for death, and that those people are in high positions in society and probably even proud of their decisions with no concience bites, scares me.
4. The obvious and often mentioned mistakes that are bound to happen. No matter how much you improve the system, they will keep happening.
5. Right and wrong are very vague categories. One country's minor offence is punishable with Capital punishment in another country. Where do you draw the line?
6. Any criminal is a product of the society they are from. I don't believe anyone is "born bad". I don't know a whole lot about psychology, but I think every society produces their bad people. With this I don't mean they should just let them do whatever they do, but I think we should put more thought into what happened before the crime instead of what to do afterwards.

As for people having it to well in prison - I think the pure fact of being in prison and being taken away the freedom to decide what to do is quite a lot of punishment. Personally, I don't ever want to be in prison, no matter how many cable TVs they give me. To make them less humane... well I am sure you all have seen reports about those less humane prisons that exist in the world - do you really want that?

And hitting rapists penis with a stone - again, revenge. I have never been a victim of rape so I can't really say what I would want to do to that person if I was. But right now at least the thought of doing this, no matter what the person did to me, makes me feel sick. I can't imagine it would make me feel better.

 

[phoenix1224]

6. Any criminal is a product of the society they are from. I don't believe anyone is "born bad". I don't know a whole lot about psychology, but I think every society produces their bad people. With this I don't mean they should just let them do whatever they do, but I think we should put more thought into what happened before the crime instead of what to do afterwards.

Ah, yes... The old "you can't hold ME personally responsible for my OWN actions, SOCIETY and my UPBRINGING made me this way" argument...

What about sociopaths? They're born that way.

 

[AppleBiter]

Ah, yes... The old "you can't hold ME personally responsible for my OWN actions, SOCIETY and my UPBRINGING made me this way" argument...

What about sociopaths? They're born that way.

As someone whose major is Criminal Justice and who studied Criminology just last semester, yes, sociopaths are born that way and so are psychopaths. Nothing can be done to correct the wiring in their brain. Nothing. It's sad but true.

 

[phoenix1224]

1. Capital punishment to me is revenge. I am against revenge.

I agree. But, I'm not against it.

2. Killing someone is violence. If the state uses violence, it sends a message to the people that it is alright to use violence, and that you can resolve problems with violence.

I have to disagree... Most States use lethal injection for execution, which is quite peaceful... The person is injected with a sedative and is sound asleep before the lethal drugs are even pumped into their system.

3. Someone will have to make the final decision. I wouldn't want to be the one to decide that someone is going to be put to death, and the thought that there are people who decide this, and decide for death, and that those people are in high positions in society and probably even proud of their decisions with no concience bites, scares me.

Most States have taken that power out of the hands of the judges and put it into the hands of the jury... And juries are made up mostly of your average, everyday John Q. Public.

4. The obvious and often mentioned mistakes that are bound to happen. No matter how much you improve the system, they will keep happening.

I agree that there are definitely some problems... But, I disagree that those problems can't be fixed.

5. Right and wrong are very vague categories. One country's minor offence is punishable with Capital punishment in another country. Where do you draw the line?

Right and wrong are NOT vague categories... That's why we have LAWS.

I agree that there are countries who go WAY over the line with regards to punishment... But, our States (at least the ones with the death penalty on the books) have decided that Capital Punishment is to be used ONLY in cases of Capital crimes... i.e., murder (single, double triple, mass, serial, etc.).

6. Any criminal is a product of the society they are from. I don't believe anyone is "born bad". I don't know a whole lot about psychology, but I think every society produces their bad people. With this I don't mean they should just let them do whatever they do, but I think we should put more thought into what happened before the crime instead of what to do afterwards.

I already addressed this one.

 

[Munachi]

As someone whose major is Criminal Justice and who studied Criminology just last semester, yes, sociopaths are born that way and so are psychopaths. Nothing can be done to correct the wiring in their brain. Nothing. It's sad but true.

if they are born that way it is not their fault either...
and as for "don't blame me, blame society" - of course this alone doesn't work either, as i do think people have to take responsibility for their actions. but blaming only them, or just assuming they are all psychopaths, is making to too easy for us.

 

[Munachi]

I have to disagree... Most States use lethal injection for execution, which is quite peaceful... The person is injected with a sedative and is sound asleep before the lethal drugs are even pumped into their system.

Not the way it is done but the fact that it is killing someone is what is violence imho. Violence is not necessarily about breaking bones and blood and pain. A lot of violence does look quite peaceful, but it is still violence. In my opinion, taking someone's life by definition is violence.

Most States have taken that power out of the hands of the judges and put it into the hands of the jury... And juries are made up mostly of your average, everyday John Q. Public.

Actually, I find that even more scary.

I agree that there are definitely some problems... But, I disagree that those problems can't be fixed.

How? I just can't think of a way to make 100 % sure no one is set up, or that prejudices won't influence the decisions.

Right and wrong are NOT vague categories... That's why we have LAWS.

But laws are results of morals. Laws get changed all the time. Things that are against the law in one place and time are okay in another place and time. Some time ago people were convinced that it is right and just to kill someone for ... i don't know... adultery, or whatever other thing that might be seen as no crime by us. What makes you so sure that in 100 years or so people might not see us and our laws as injust and inhumane?

 

[Denae]

will post my belief on the subject later when I'm not so tired.

 

[Weenieschnitzel]

I was for it most of my life untill just a few years ago. Put aside the fact that innocent people have been executed, which is unexcuseable to me, and sure if some one hurt a loved one I would want to kill them personally, also I do believe some people deserve to die and I would have no qualms about killing them myself.
My main objection is that as a civilized society we just shouldn't be killing people. Period.

I agree totally.

The problem with the dp is, that the slaughtering of a human dont bring back the killed. And the stupid "eye for eye" idea is really stupid.

 

[Exciteher]

against it. strongly.

1. Capital punishment to me is revenge. I am against revenge.
............
2. Killing someone is violence. If the state uses violence, it sends a message to the people that it is alright to use violence, and that you can resolve problems with violence.
.............
4. The obvious and often mentioned mistakes that are bound to happen. No matter how much you improve the system, they will keep happening.

Munachi's post very well summed it up for me... her point #2 is morally pivotal.

The death penalty sends a societal message and acknowledges an existing societal agreement that killing is an acceptable solution to problems..

The state, depending on its criteria, agrees that killing someone is acceptable.
The murderer, depending on their criteria, agrees that killing someone is acceptable.
WTF????

It is interesting that in 2003 in the USA, the average murder rate per 100,000 people in states that have the death penality was 5.3, for non death penality states it was 2.9. Non-death penality states tend to have lower lower murder rates. The 13 highest murder rate states all have the death penality. The south, as a region, had an average murder rate of 6.7 with a whopping 776 executions in the last 25 years. The Northeast had an average of 4.2 with 3 executions in the same time period.!!!!!!!!!!!

AND.. while the murder rate nationally has declined, the murder rates in non-death penalty states declined much more dramatically than those states with the death penalty.

In 1990, the Non-CP states had 4 percent lower murder rates. By 2002 non-CP states had a 36 percent lower murder rates. So you are actually more likely to get murdered in states that have the death penalty. You will find similar results when you look at these same stats comparing nations....

Now, this is just the facts. Not only does the death penalty do nothing to decrease murder, it actually increases risk! Not only that, it is way more expensive to execute someone than to incarcerate them.
And as for the "they might escape or get loose" argument, it is much more feasable to devise secure prisons and to enforce life sentences than it is to over come the legal paradoxes and faults that 200 yrs of capitol punishment law has proven itself to be subject. Here is where determinate sentences are valuable... as opposed to the way they are used now... like for petty burglary. It is a matter of political will.

So I am against it because it does not work. It does not decrease violent crime.
It is not efficient. It is not effective. It diverts scarce resources. It is a panacea. It is a way we have of lying to ourselves that we are doing something. It is part of the cause, not the solution. And it sends a completely counter productive message, that killing is permissable.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting to get a different result.

Actually, we spend tons of money at the end.. on prisons, on executions, etc. I wonder what would happen if we had spent those dollars at the front? What a concept! Take mental health, most insurance companies pretty much pretend that it does not exist, it is not real and they do not insure for it. Or, how about the schools? We will pay a baseball player 128 million dollars... teachers get squat. What a healthy, family oriented, common sense society! But who cares about the mentally infirm or the kids..lets just execute them..oops..I forgot..we do!

Now for the moral question. Well thats easy, is killing moral? Careful, that is a trick question.

Now for the ethical question. Putting someone to death is something that cannot be undone. All human beings and human devised systems are fallible. Given all that, is it ethical for a state or a person to methodically take the life of another??? Especially if when a mistake is made, it cannot be corrected? I think not, and I think it takes a leap of irrationality to think it would be ethical.

Why the hell do you think most executions are carried out at some ungodly hour of the night, in near secret, the executioners are often hooded, usually behind a devise that shields them from knowing WHO exactly did the real killing? Even the state is ashamed of what it is doing, it cannot come to terms with its own cognitive dissonance! What splendid metaphors for ethical vacume those contortions of ritual are! If we are going to do this, at least they should be public, it should be law they are broadcast on EVERY channel live, as a part of the broadcast license requirement.

So what about war? Even here, killing is not moral, it is at best amoral. Unfortunately, as long as society retrains this corrosive little idea that it is OK under some circumstances to kill each other, war will be with us.
As will self defense..etc. At this point in our disappointing social evolution, it is an unavoidable amorality. But this is a very different animal than death as a punishment, as a state institution. One cannot help wonder if the key to eliminating war may in fact be intertwined with eliminating the rational that also supports the death penality.

I want all you pro death penalty people to tell me just how many mistakes are acceptable in a system that allows for the death penalty. 1 innocent per 100? 1 per 1000? 1 per 1,000,000? And lets just imagine you are that 1 as you ponder this. Just what is the value of a human life?... because that is what this metric is all about. For me, 1 mistake is totally unacceptable and absolutely immoral.

Since 1973, 119 people have been released from death row on evidence of their innocence. Top 4 are the who's who of death penality states. Florida, 21..Illinois,18... Louisiana, 8... Texas, 8.

So, what about the victims? Well, what about trying to do things (remember my little front-end rant above??) to insure there are no victims.. instead of doing what amounts to essentially less than nothing. The death penality is just another "feel good" non-solution.

 

[Ricwilly]

Exciteher, well said.

 

[SlickTony]

I'm of two minds. On one hand, we all know about the inequities in the justice system; how minorities are punished more harshly, and that sometimes, innocent people get executied. That is abhorrent.

On the other hand, if a particularly heinous murderer is convicted, dead to shit, not a shadow of a doubt, getting rid of him is like killing a coral snake that has taken up residence in your yard. If you don't do something it'll get your child or your dog. If I were in charge, that situation in the Thomas Harris novel where Hannibal Lecter is allowed to live, albeit with a muzzle on, would never have occurred; he'd have been put down as too much of a menace to society and for being outside the pale of humanity.

But on yet another hand, the argument can be made that death is too good for some people.

 

[Munachi]

agree with most things exciteher said...

even if there is a risk for a murderer murdering again, and if i was the one he murdered - this is a risk that is morally for me much more acceptable than the risk of putting someone innocent to death penalty. and also thanks for the statistics - i knew about them kind of in general (like that in a countries with death penalty often there are higher murder rates) but didn't have any numbers... i am not sure if it is death penalty that causes these higher murder rates, but at least it inforces a message of violence, and it is an expression of a similar "an eye for an eye" and "revenge is okay and a man's duty" attitude that also causes a lot of murders.